[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Starwaster]

3 hours ago, Tonas1997 said:

I was not sure whether to post this here or on the KSPI-E thread, so I chose one randomly.  Guess what.

So here it goes: for those of you who play with Interstellar, you probably know about the Turbojet/Ramjet engines (both of which use that whole thermal power shenanigan and some fuel to produce ungodly amounts of thrust). Well, as I expected, RealFuels rendered these engines obsolete, since their fuels - and the very concept of "IntakeAir"! - were overwritten by RF; most likely, it has something to do with the fact both mods change the way resources work.

This doesn't seem to translate to other "simpler" KSPI-E engines, like the Kerbstein.

The question is: is it possible to create/edit configs so I can revert the engines to their "normal" functionality (quotation marks because there would be some adjustments to be made, like writing custom configs for Kerosene and RF's Hydrazine), and has anyone attempted it?

The only real effect that RF has on IntakeAir (as far as the definition goes) is to change its density

You can easily undo that change with the following patch

@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[IntakeAir]:FINAL
{
	@density = 0.005
}

I'm assuming this is for your personal use rather than for a mod so I used :FINAL

If this is going to go in a mod like KSPIE then don't use FINAL! (instead, use :AFTER[RealFuels]  or define some KSPIE pass that will execute really late in the MM cycle like :FOR[zzzKSPIEFinal]

[Tonas1997]

On 1/10/2018 at 7:46 PM, Starwaster said:

The only real effect that RF has on IntakeAir (as far as the definition goes) is to change its density

You can easily undo that change with the following patch

@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[IntakeAir]:FINAL
{
	@density = 0.005
}

I'm assuming this is for your personal use rather than for a mod so I used :FINAL

If this is going to go in a mod like KSPIE then don't use FINAL! (instead, use :AFTER[RealFuels]  or define some KSPIE pass that will execute really late in the MM cycle like :FOR[zzzKSPIEFinal]

Thanks! I haven't been able to solve it yet, since it has to do with the changed stock fuels, but I'll keep looking into that.

Quick unrelated question: is there a way to revert (or at least) adjust the fuel tank prices? I feel like having a 150.000 funds super-heavy lifter is a bit too OP...

Edited January 12, 2018 by Tonas1997

[Starwaster]

2 hours ago, Tonas1997 said:

Thanks! I haven't been able to solve it yet, since it has to do with the changed stock fuels, but I'll keep looking into that.

Quick unrelated question: is there a way to revert (or at least) adjust the fuel tank prices? I feel like having a 150.000 funds super-heavy lifter is a bit too OP...

Do you mean the tank price or the resources?

And just how many Funds do you think they should cost? You do realize that the 'Fund' is an arbitrary unit and is intentionally kept small so as not to inundate the player with unwieldy numbers?

If you're thinking that a Fund is something like a dollar or some other real world unit of currency then yeah - 150K is too cheap. Except that a Fund is NOT a dollar; I think it's something like 1 Fund = $1000 but it could also be higher. (I think it might be higher for RO or RP0). Those conversions would be in 1965 USD which is about the right time period for most of the technology involved. If thinking in modern terms (adjusting for inflation) then a 'fund' is worth much more (6k-7k USD)

So if you adjust your thinking to take into account those numbers then 150K is not that unreasonable.

And I would look at adjusting other parts before touching the tanks or the resources anyway. (things like engines)

 

 

[Tonas1997]

24 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

Do you mean the tank price or the resources?

And just how many Funds do you think they should cost? You do realize that the 'Fund' is an arbitrary unit and is intentionally kept small so as not to inundate the player with unwieldy numbers?

If you're thinking that a Fund is something like a dollar or some other real world unit of currency then yeah - 150K is too cheap. Except that a Fund is NOT a dollar; I think it's something like 1 Fund = $1000 but it could also be higher. (I think it might be higher for RO or RP0). Those conversions would be in 1965 USD which is about the right time period for most of the technology involved. If thinking in modern terms (adjusting for inflation) then a 'fund' is worth much more (6k-7k USD)

So if you adjust your thinking to take into account those numbers then 150K is not that unreasonable.

And I would look at adjusting other parts before touching the tanks or the resources anyway. (things like engines)

 

 

Thanks for the answer! I was actually comparing prices before and after installing RealFuels: a near identical SLS replica costs about 1.200.000 w/o RF, but the adapted version (with the same engines and hardware apart from the tanks) costs only around 250.000. I don't have a problem per se with this,  but it kinda makes super-heavy rocketry way cheaper than it should be, which doesn't force me to design rockets economically - and I'm a kind lady for added difficulty.

Edit: love the autocorrection to "kind lady"

Edited January 12, 2018 by Tonas1997

[Starwaster]

2 minutes ago, Tonas1997 said:

Thanks for the answer! I was actually comparing prices before and after installing RealFuels: a near identical SLS replica costs about 1.200.000 w/o RF, but the adapted version (with the same engines and hardware apart from the tanks) costs only around 250.000. I don't have a problem per se with this,  but it kinda makes super-heavy rocketry way cheaper than it should be, which doesn't force me to design rockets economically - and I'm a kind lady for added difficulty.

Edit: love the autocorrection to "kind lady"

I was scratching my head over that... what was it supposed to be before autocorrect?

[Tonas1997]

Just now, Starwaster said:

I was scratching my head over that... what was it supposed to be before autocorrect?

A pejorative name used to describe individuals with a high sex drive. Four letters, starting with "s".

[Starwaster]

@Tonas1997

Well there's a few things you can do about cost. You can edit baseCostPV (base cost per volume) in RealSettings.cfg 

For resources you can patch the unitCost of each RESOURCE_DEFINITION

You can also patch the individual TANK nodes inside each TANK_DEFINITION (RealTankTypes.cfg in RealFuels/Resources) and add a cost to each one. (that's tank cost per volume - currently unused)

[Dermeister]

When I installed this I followed and downloaded the required mods listed in post 1. When I launch KSP ksp says that " realfuels" is not compatible with KSP 1.3.1 yet when I go to real fuels git hub to get the latest release it states that it is indeed for 1.3.1 What am I doing wrong?

[Starwaster]

47 minutes ago, Dermeister said:

When I installed this I followed and downloaded the required mods listed in post 1. When I launch KSP ksp says that " realfuels" is not compatible with KSP 1.3.1 yet when I go to real fuels git hub to get the latest release it states that it is indeed for 1.3.1 What am I doing wrong?

What you're doing wrong is not ignoring that message. It's only happening because someone didn't designate that RF is compatible with KSP 1.3.1 - the compatibility checker only KNOWS RF is compatible with a given version because we told it so:

https://github.com/NathanKell/ModularFuelSystem/blob/rf-v12.4.1/Source/assembly/Checkers.cs#L67

[Dermeister]

1 hour ago, Starwaster said:

What you're doing wrong is not ignoring that message. It's only happening because someone didn't designate that RF is compatible with KSP 1.3.1 - the compatibility checker only KNOWS RF is compatible with a given version because we told it so:

https://github.com/NathanKell/ModularFuelSystem/blob/rf-v12.4.1/Source/assembly/Checkers.cs#L67

Excellent! I felt like it  was something like that because RF seemed to work fine in the VAB. But I wanted to post just to be sure I didn't mess anything up! So this is good news :). Also this is not really related but you seem pretty knowledgeable. SO What's the best engine Config to use if I plan to use RSS or earth sized kerbin mods with Real fuels and I don't want to use all the mods that RO requires? I think that for stalk engine configs it says it's meant for 6.4 kerbin or stock.

I understand that there is a few mods that are not up to snuff for 1.3.1 but I imagine that in a short while most mods will get updated for the current ksp as it's been doing for years now.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Dermeister

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Okay, so I have a real kludge of an install working for me and I've been using it for some time to Flight Sim my way around Kerbin. 

 

However, I've been expanding out a bit to my rocketry and I've run into an RF-related problem and I'm not sure what config is crossing wires.

 

I'm trying to use orbital/hypergolic engines on some probes, and when I set configs for them like Aerozine50 + NTO, I cannot in turn populate the tanks.  When I checked the tanks, I found that I had a lot of fuel options, but some of the classic ones I'm used to seem to be missing.  Specifically,  NTO, MMH, UDMH, and probably a few others I don't pay attention to.  I already checked in a sandbox game, and they're missing there.  So I'm certain I'm not being silly and just have fuel options locked behind tech nodes.

Anyway,  I've just finished checking through my folders to see if maybe I incorrectly installed a sub-mod, or otherwise placed something in the wrong folder.  But as far as I can tell, they look fine.  I even checked the Real Fuels resources folder for RFTankTypes and the list in that config is showing the fuel types I'm missing.  So I don't have a botched config.

The only other difference I've noticed from my older game builds is that I have Procedural Tanks installed, and I suddenly remember that procedural fuel tanks used to be called 'Procedural Real Fuels Tank' when working in the VAB.  I notice now it's calling it a 'Procedural Liquid Fuel Tank'.  Thus, I did a check with a stock tank, and still had the same missing fuel types.

To me, I feel like I have some kind of overwrite in the configs going on that's blocking the fuels, but I don't know where to start untangling it.  If anyone else recognizes the problem, and might know what file I should poke at, let me know. 

 

I'd give more precise version build information, but I don't think you guys want to even ATTEMPT to comb through my kludge.  (I've got bits working from across 1.1.2, 1.2.2, 1.3 versions, plus custom tweaks, old firespitter experimental parts that STILL work...  I'm balanced on a pinhead over here.)

[Starwaster]

@AdmiralTigerclaw No logs, no ModuleManager.ConfigCache, not even a tasty sammich by way of incentive....

Need at least two of those three.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

10 hours ago, Starwaster said:

@AdmiralTigerclaw No logs, no ModuleManager.ConfigCache, not even a tasty sammich by way of incentive....

Need at least two of those three.

You need a log for that?  *Sigh*

 

I'll see what I can do.  Meantime, if you want a sammich, you'll have to steal it from this guy.

EDIT:

Okay, Log's up.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dl5746aasmxc2p2/Logs.zip

 

Beware the madness.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Starwaster]

6 hours ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

You need a log for that?  *Sigh*

 

I'll see what I can do.  Meantime, if you want a sammich, you'll have to steal it from this guy.

EDIT:

Okay, Log's up.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dl5746aasmxc2p2/Logs.zip

 

Beware the madness.

 

Decided not to risk the sammich.

You have both Real Fuels And Modular Fuel Tanks installed - Looks like the MFT defs are overriding the RF defs. Delete MFT

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

1 hour ago, Starwaster said:

Decided not to risk the sammich.

You have both Real Fuels And Modular Fuel Tanks installed - Looks like the MFT defs are overriding the RF defs. Delete MFT

 

How the bloody tartarus did THAT happen?!  I know MFT and RF are mutually exclusive.

 

PS, thanks.

Edited January 23, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Starwaster]

7 minutes ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

 

How the bloody tartarus did THAT happen?!  I know MFT and RF are mutually exclusive.

 

PS, thanks.

Yeah and aside from the double sets of tank def configs, the two plugins probably wouldn't have worked together either. They're basically the same except that they diverged into two different code bases so the classes are the same mostly and the part modules the same name... Not really sure what they would do together but it probably wouldn't be good

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

1 minute ago, Starwaster said:

Yeah and aside from the double sets of tank def configs, the two plugins probably wouldn't have worked together either. They're basically the same except that they diverged into two different code bases so the classes are the same mostly and the part modules the same name... Not really sure what they would do together but it probably wouldn't be good

Yeah, I remember when MFT became a thing.  And then when RF and Procedural Parts were first made.  I knew all the way back those are mutually exclusive.  What confuses me, is how I managed to nab up MFT and dump it into my install.

 

EDIT: More in thought with your post.  I'm now wondering if this was also a reason I had an unusual case of shakey-ship if I had something in orbit with a plane on the ground.

Edited January 23, 2018 by AdmiralTigerclaw

[Starwaster]

35 minutes ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

Yeah, I remember when MFT became a thing.  And then when RF and Procedural Parts were first made.  I knew all the way back those are mutually exclusive.  What confuses me, is how I managed to nab up MFT and dump it into my install.

 

EDIT: More in thought with your post.  I'm now wondering if this was also a reason I had an unusual case of shakey-ship if I had something in orbit with a plane on the ground.

Originally, RF was just  set of optional config files that came with MFT to add real resources. Boiloff existed but only loosely grounded in any real world mechanics. Then more and more 'stuff' got added to it at the plugin level until it became its own branch.

Not sure I see how either (or both) could affect ship physics....

[notJebKerman]

Is there a way to use this mod without actually having real life fuels and only use the features that limit restarts and throttling capability?

[blowfish]

9 hours ago, notJebKerman said:

Is there a way to use this mod without actually having real life fuels and only use the features that limit restarts and throttling capability?

Yes, but it involves writing all your own engine configs...

[DJ Reonic]

22 hours ago, notJebKerman said:

Is there a way to use this mod without actually having real life fuels and only use the features that limit restarts and throttling capability?

Look at Engine Ignitor Reignited and Throttle Limit Extended. Those should give you what you want.

[Battou]

How can I add ignition count to Streamline mod engines?? They use liquid fuel types, but have unlimited ignitions.((

[JohnMcLane]

13 hours ago, Battou said:

How can I add ignition count to Streamline mod engines?? They use liquid fuel types, but have unlimited ignitions.((

ULLAGE AND LIMITED IGNITIONS

RealFuels now integrates limited ignitions and support for ullage and pressure-fed engines.

* To start an engine, you must have the resources it requires to start, and you must have ignitions remaining.

* If ullage is enabled for the engine, and your propellant stability is not "Very Stable", there is a chance that vapor can get in the feed lines and the engine will flame out. You will need to set the throttle to 0 to reset things, then stabilize your propellants. Some forward RCS thrust, or thrust from ullage motors like small SRBs (solids and RCS aren't subject to ullage issues) will do that. Then you can try throttling the engine up again to restart it.

* If the engine is pressure-fed, it requires highly-pressurized tanks (see above for tank descriptions). It will not ignite and run without such tanks.

New parameters in ModuleEnginesRF:

ullage: Whether ullage simulation is enabled. Defaults to false.

pressureFed: Whether the engine is pressure-fed. Defaults to false.

ignitions: the number of ignitions the engine has. Defaults to -1 (unlimited).

IGNITOR_RESOURCE nodes: If you specify limited ignitions, an engine will consume these resources when it ignites, and will fail to ignite (but still use up an ignition) if they are not available. name defines the resource name (like ElectricCharge) and amount defines the amount required (just like EngineIgnitor).

Note that if you used to configure Engine Ignitor per-CONFIG in RF, those configs are still compatible. You only need to worry about the above parameters if you don't have ModuleEngineIgnitor {} nodes in you CONFIG nodes.

 

So you need to put in your engine config ignitorresource:

Spoiler

MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleEngineConfigs
        type = ModuleEnginesFX
        configuration = F-1
        origMass = 8.391459
        modded = false
        CONFIG
        {
            (....)
            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = ElectricCharge
                amount = 0.5
            }
            IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                name = TEATEB
                amount = 1    \\the amount of ignitions you want
            }
        }

 

[Briso]

I have a question. Real Fuels installed the latest version of ksp and 1.3.1, but I gets an error when launching the game. What to do?

Incompatible Mods Detected

Some installed mods may be incompatible with this version of ksp. Features may be broken or disabled. Please check for updates to the listed mod.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Briso

[Starwaster]

3 hours ago, Briso said:

I have a question. Real Fuels installed the latest version of ksp and 1.3.1, but I gets an error when launching the game. What to do?

Incompatible Mods Detected

Some installed mods may be incompatible with this version of ksp. Features may be broken or disabled. Please check for updates to the listed mod.

'Incompatible Mods Detected' just means that there is a mismatch between the version of KSP and the version of KSP that the mod reports it is for.

So either you are using the wrong version of Real Fuels OR someone forgot to update the compatibility checker code in Real Fuels when rebuilding it. 

For KSP 1.3.1, THIS is what you should be using: https://github.com/NathanKell/ModularFuelSystem/releases/tag/rf-v12.4.1 - I know for a fact that it is built for KSP 1.3.1 in spite of any compatibility warnings.