[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Starwaster]

1. I thought I tried it.

2. I thought if I used the tank at its defaultScale then it would not matter anyway since I've only had issues in the past when scale was changed.

It is a TweakScale interaction bug of some kind after all, so I must not have tested it enough. I removed the DLL and the tank was correct. I put the DLL back and the basemass was treated as -1 instead of the TANK definition. I was wrong... it appears to be basemass=-1 instead of basemass=old mass + default tank + added tank. At least... that's what it was doing now after several changes during testing.

Humor me please.

In the TweakScale folder, find the ScaleExponents.cfg

Change the following

TWEAKSCALEEXPONENTS
{
    name = RealFuels.ModuleFuelTanks

	[COLOR=#ff0000]basemass = 3[/COLOR]
	[COLOR=#ff0000]basemassPV = 3[/COLOR]
	totalVolume = 3
	volume = 3
	fuelList
	{
		amount = 3
		maxAmount = 3
	}
}

to

TWEAKSCALEEXPONENTS
{
    name = RealFuels.ModuleFuelTanks

	[COLOR=#008000]//basemass = 3[/COLOR]
	[COLOR=#008000]//basemassPV = 3[/COLOR]
	totalVolume = 3
	volume = 3
	fuelList
	{
		amount = 3
		maxAmount = 3
	}
}

Then retest.

[Raptor831]

I use Unity to create them for me, and it's easy. If you want, draw a line with any paint program, imgur it for me, and I'll make a curve that matches your desire.

Thanks for the offer. The 6 curves on that GIF in the video thread would be wonderful. Link: http://www.braeunig.us/space/pics/fig1-14.gif

I'm kind of hoping to either have a set of them to choose from, or maybe generate them somehow myself within Excel or maybe PHP. Working on a secret project of sorts for the Stockalike configs and this would be a nice addition. Well, not really secret. I'm trying to rebuild the massive XLS in WordPress and PHP, so 1) it can be on the web somewhere and easily adjusted, and 2) so other people can use the generator to make/test RF engine configs without the "scary" spreadsheet. We shall see.

[Felbourn]

@Starwaster: No change. It's the proper mass in the VAB but upon launching it's as if the basemass is being pulled from the vessel PART info instead (as if basemass=-1). My workaround that has fixed it is to set the mass to the value I want for each tank, and set basemass=-1 for all tanks too.

@Raptor831: Here...

type 1 srb
key = 0.00 0.01
key = 0.01 0.01
key = 0.05 1.00 0 0
key = 0.95 0.50 0 0
key = 1.00 0.10

type 2
key = 0.00 0.01
key = 0.01 0.01
key = 0.05 1.00 0 0
key = 0.95 1.00 0 0
key = 1.00 0.10

type 3
key = 0.00 0.01
key = 0.01 0.01
key = 0.20 1.00 6 -0.2
key = 0.95 1.00 0 0.0
key = 1.00 0.10

type 4
key = 0.00 0.01
key = 0.01 0.01
key = 0.95 1.00 0 0
key = 1.00 0.10

type 5
key = 0.00 0.01
key = 0.01 0.01
key = 0.05 0.50 0 0
key = 0.95 1.00 0 0
key = 1.00 0.10

type 6
key = 0.00 0.01
key = 0.01 0.01
key = 0.05 0.10 0.1 0.1
key = 0.88 0.10 0.1 0.1
key = 0.92 1.00
key = 0.95 1.00
key = 1.00 0.10

NOTE! These all use a technique I find visually pleasing: to have the last 1% a max of 1% thrust. It makes them look like this:

This also means you need to decouple before they are fully drained. The last 1% usually drains VERY slowly.

Also since I did not actually try these yet, we might find the line "key = 1.00 0.10" needs to boost the 0.10 up a little in each case to speed up the initial launch warmup to a not-tedious level.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Felbourn

[Northstar1989]

@NathanKell

RealFuels is a great mod. I love how much it enhances the realism of the play experience, and almost couldn't imagine playing without it anymore. You've already done so much great work in it!

As a result, I just want to help it improve to be the best it can be- which is why I've been trying to see through an overhaul of the Thermal Fin part from its current white/square design to something that's more realistic (black in color- for greater Stefan-Boltzmann emissivity, and triangular in shape- for better aerodynamics and less drag).

I suggested using a re-scaled version of the model for the large, triangular, static radiator from KSP-Interstellar; but I still haven't been able to get any word on whose permission I would need to fork that for a revamp of the Thermal Fin part here... (I need to get a hold of Fractal_UK and find out who the original artist was- he borrowed the model from somebody else)

I was wondering if you would be open to replacing the existing part with one based on a larger (and thus more powerful at cooling and more energy-hungry) and more realistic model/mesh if I and/or somebody else did the necessary legwork? Also, are you aware of any other good black+triangular models that are already out there besides the one from KSP-Interstellar?

Regards,

Northstar

[Starwaster]

Has anyone by chance started work on compatibility with the Mark IV Space Plane System from Nertea?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/101699-0-25-Mark-IV-Spaceplane-System-%282-5m-aircraft-fuselage%29

Ok here you go. I'll submit it to the repository for inclusion

@PART[mk4cargo-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 1000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4cargo-tail-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 500
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4adapter-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4adapter-2]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4fuselage-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4fuselage-lfo-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4mono-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 3000
type = ServiceModule
}
}
@PART[mk4tail-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4tail-2]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4scimitar]
{
@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[#engineID[AirBreathing]]
{
@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
{
@name = Kerosene
}
}
@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[#engineID[ClosedCycle]]
{
@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
{
@name = Kerosene
}
@PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
{
@name = LqdOxygen
}
}
}

Edited December 4, 2014 by Starwaster

[Northstar1989]

Nertea's making a Mark IV Spaceplane Fuselage line?

AWESOME!

Seriously, I really like his work.

Maybe Squad will even consider giving it a similar treatment to Spaceplane Plus if it stays similar enough to stock in its look and feel... I do hope so- because IMHO even Mark III spaceplane parts won't be large enough to truly make spaceplanes a serious competitor with rockets...

@NathanKell

Anyways, in other news, a player named Rabada created a Real Fuels Thermal Fin based on the Nova Aerostrake (basically, a very long, streamlined fin that doesn't stick out from the tank/fuselage body very far, and thus is much more aerodynamic than the current square part) a while back... He hasn't released the part to the public anywhere yet, but I'm trying to get him to do that (I *just* sent him a PM about it). Still, it's a functional part, and bigger/better (more aerodynamically-shaped and has a larger total surface area) than than the current Thermal Fin part...

I was wondering if maybe this could get the green light for inclusion in the mod (preferably to replace the current Thermal Fin entirely) if I can convince him to release the file? Basically, it's still got a few things I'll need to work out first- like making sure he has the proper permissions from the original Nova Aerostrake author/artist, even if I can get him to post the file- but it doesn't need to be created from scratch like a version based on the KSP-Interstellar radiator fin (which, admittedly, has a more realistic texture and color for a thermal fin than the Nova Aerostrake) since it's already been made, so it could be ready-to-use much sooner...

As always, I appreciate all your hard work on this mod. I just want to contribute in what ways I can think of to make it even better! (surely there's always room for improvement in even the best mods?) The Thermal Fin strikes me as the one part of the mod that doesn't seem to be very realistic (rocket engineers, with their obsessions with efficiency and reliability, would never allow something as boxy/draggy and easily torn-off as the current Thermal Fin to see use on an actual real-life rocket...) so I thought it might be the one place where I could make a significant contribution. Almost everything else about this mod is breathtakingly awesome and very realistic!

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 3, 2014 by Northstar1989

[MrHatty]

Ok here you go. I'll submit it to the repository for inclusion

@PART[mk4cargo-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 1000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4cargo-tail-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 500
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4adapter-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4adapter-2]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4fuselage-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4fuselage-lfo-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4mono-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 3000
type = ServiceModule
}
}
@PART[mk4tail-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4tail-2]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}

Thanks for this. I can never seem to get it right myself. Probably something noobish I'm doing, lol. Now this thing has potential to be a starship

[Starwaster]

Thanks for this. I can never seem to get it right myself. Probably something noobish I'm doing, lol. Now this thing has potential to be a starship

I just realized that I left out its engine. (forgot that it had one in the pack)

So I'll have to do up some configs for that too but I won't have time until this evening...ish.

[NathanKell]

Raptor831: creating the curve isn't hard per se; the problem is that it is a curve whose x value is "fuel remaining" and whose y value is a multiplier to max thrust. Since most solid rocket motors' curves are shown in time format, you will have to do some funky math to convert (i.e. integrating the time curve to see how much is burned by any given time).

Me, I'd suggest just stealing them from RO.

Felbourn: Yes, RF's thrust curves are essentially identical to EngineThrustController's resource curves (though time curves are not supported).

Starwaster: Heck, probably that whole *node* shouldn't exist.

Raptor831: HoneyFox suggested using the curve editor for Tweakable Parameters in RF, I just haven't gotten to it yet (PRs welcome, obviously). And that sounds like an excellent project!

Northstar1989: Sure, a new model is fine. Also, zzz's radiator model (the one in KSPI) is public domain, and either in 8.1 or in the-8.2-that-is-yet-to-be-released it's included I think. Though just because the thermal fin is a fin, doesn't mean it's meant to be in the airstream; my understanding is it's meant to be for faired payload. If it is fin-shaped, actually, it probably needs a FAR wing aero model.

Starwaster: thanks for the pull!

[Raptor831]

@Felbourn: Thanks for the curves! Appreciate it.

@NathanKell: Yeah, between the curves from above and RO's curves I should be ok for now. Don't feel like doing calculus for this just yet.

[Starwaster]

Updated my MkIV configs to add the Scimitar engine. All it does is exchange the stock fuels for Kerosene / LqdOxygen. I'd like to add ModuleEngineConfigs to it and provide other options like hydrogen and methane, but this is all I had time to do right now. Added to my existing pull request.

(if anyone else wants to tackle the extra engine configs, feel free and I'll incorporate yours into my pull)

@PART[mk4cargo-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 1000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4cargo-tail-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 500
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4adapter-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4adapter-2]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4fuselage-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4fuselage-lfo-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4mono-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 3000
type = ServiceModule
}
}
@PART[mk4tail-1]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 4000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4tail-2]
{
MODULE
{
name = ModuleFuelTanks
volume = 8000
type = Fuselage
}
}
@PART[mk4scimitar]
{
@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[#engineID[AirBreathing]]
{
@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
{
@name = Kerosene
}
}
@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]:HAS[#engineID[ClosedCycle]]
{
@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
{
@name = Kerosene
}
@PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
{
@name = LqdOxygen
}
}
}

[NathanKell]

Starwaster, engine configs do not go in RF. They go in engine packs. If they went in RF, then engine packs would have to worry about undoing RF's changes before doing their own. I stripped the Scimitar config; I hope that's the only one?

[Starwaster]

Starwaster, engine configs do not go in RF. They go in engine packs. If they went in RF, then engine packs would have to worry about undoing RF's changes before doing their own. I stripped the Scimitar config; I hope that's the only one?

Ooops yeah I forgot that.

That's the only one.

[Northstar1989]

Northstar1989: Sure, a new model is fine. Also, zzz's radiator model (the one in KSPI) is public domain, and either in 8.1 or in the-8.2-that-is-yet-to-be-released it's included I think. Though just because the thermal fin is a fin, doesn't mean it's meant to be in the airstream; my understanding is it's meant to be for faired payload. If it is fin-shaped, actually, it probably needs a FAR wing aero model.

Yeah, I actually downloaded the 12/3 dev version from Github, and saw the zzz radiator model had its own folder- though it doesn't seem to be showing up in my part catalog or tech tree, so I can't actually test the new part out...

I don't have a great understanding of how FAR actually recognizes the shape of a part behind-the-scenes (only that it does, and that more streamlined shapes are rewarded). So there's some sort of change that needs to be made to the ZZZ part file such as to allow FAR to recognize its aerodynamic shape better and apply the correct aero model?

Aerodynamically-shaped fins are also easier to fit inside fairings than square ones. Because fairings are wider at the base than at the top, at least a *slight* sweep to the fin shape would always be preferable. And, for LH2/LOX launch stages, fairings aren't really an option- but a swept thermal fin is. There's no reason the same part can't both provide active cooling and double as an aerodynamic stabilization fin... (this only works with swept fins, however- square fins are highly unstable at trans-sonic and low supersonic speeds, for the same reasons that supersonic aircraft all have swept rather than straight wings...)

Thus, even if the square thermal fins are meant to fit within a payload fairing, they should still have at least a *slight* sweep, as fairings are wider at their base. Also, no matter where the thermal fins fit, they should be black. White thermals fins don't work well, as anything that is white has a very low Stefan-Boltzmann emissivity (the Stefan-Boltzmann Equation governs the give-off of thermal energy via radiation. It tells us that the darker-colored an object is, the more thermal energy it will radiate, which is why all modern spacecraft thermal radiators are black.)

Also, how exactly would a thermal fin function while *inside* a fairing, in real life? My understanding is that the interior of the fairing would just absorb all the radiated heat and conduct in back to the rest of the spacecraft through the fairing-base, thus completely negating any effectiveness of a thermal fin within a fairing... I suggest disabling all thermal fins when IsShielded=True (meaning it's inside a fairing) with FAR installed...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 5, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Starwaster]

The ZZZ part is a deployable panel and is destroyed at high velocities.

And apparently it is also missing 2 vital fields that keep it from showing up in Career mode.

[Tygroux]

Err, I'm a bit lost.

I'm playing a stock system with a bunch of realism mods (DRE, TAC LS, RT...), and am looking for real(scaled to stock) fuels and engines.

I guess for real fuels I should use real fuels, but for realistic (role/Mass/TWR/ISP wise) (with scale in mind) engines, wich engine config should I use?

[Northstar1989]

The ZZZ part is a deployable panel and is destroyed at high velocities.

And apparently it is also missing 2 vital fields that keep it from showing up in Career mode.

So they used one of the deployable ZZZ panels instead of a scale-down of the black, static, triangular one that gets used in KSP-Interstellar???

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Also, I've noticed that in the 12/3 dev version, there are still a LOT of parts that still hold LF/O instead of appropriate real-world resources. Some of these are fuel tank + engine hybrids, but most are just pure fuel tanks. A few of these I pointed out before, and thought were already slated to be fixed before 8.1 was even released:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

The parts come from stock, Firespitter, and NovaPunch2 mostly...

The list of parts includes the Mk2 stock parts- obviously something that quickly needs to be fixed.

Oh yeah, and thrown in at the end of the album is a screenshot of the Meth/LOX engine, which has two methane entries in its fuel-consumption (each of different amounts). I can't figure out if the code that's causing it is from a catch-all in the RealFuels/KSP-Interstellar integration config Dreadicon got included with a pull request to NathanKell (even though it's an engine part- it might be bugged by code in base RealFuels in this case), or if it's something specific to the Stockalike engines config.

Regards,

Northstar

[Starman4308]

Err, I'm a bit lost.

I'm playing a stock system with a bunch of realism mods (DRE, TAC LS, RT...), and am looking for real(scaled to stock) fuels and engines.

I guess for real fuels I should use real fuels, but for realistic (role/Mass/TWR/ISP wise) (with scale in mind) engines, wich engine config should I use?

Realism Overhaul is the most realistic, but Realism Overhaul goes far beyond just giving engine configs to quite radically change gameplay. If you're not looking for the full RO experience, Raptor's stockalike configs work pretty well for most people. I'm not sure if Reaching for the Stars is still being kept up-to-date.

[NathanKell]

Northstar1989: I am quite doubtful that a radiator would be stressed for atmospheric deployment; by my comment I meant that the payload's radiators would be inside the fairing along with the rest of the payload, since that would be the only part of the vehicle that would *have* radiators. It would seem to me that a radiator would not behave well under 1.5atm of pressure (which is about the static + dynamic pressure peak you'd get on ascent)...

A good point about disabling them if shielded!

And thanks very, very much for toning it down a bit, much appreciated. I've got about a million juggle-balls in the air so alas I don't have tons of time for RF.

Swonnr: as mentioned, RF isn't the place you want to go if you want something designed for stock-scale KSP. Because you can't both have realistic engines and keep scale in mind...that's pretty much 100% contradictory. Your best bet might indeed by Stockalike RF Configs, and maybe with useRealisticMass = false ?

Northstar1989: As far as I'm aware, RF doesn't include any engine configs and I removed the KSPI config. I'll check again...regarding the tanks, I'll try to get to them at some point, but as I don't have the parts it's a bit of a struggle. PRs always welcome, however.

A final note: With 0.90 fast approaching, I'm going to just release a slightly-updated version of the preview release on git so there's a final solid version for 0.25, and so I can focus on getting RF (and in particular taniwha's rewrite of MFT/RF) to work for .90.

If you have any PRs you've been about ready to submit, now would be the time.

[Starwaster]

Northstar1989: I am quite doubtful that a radiator would be stressed for atmospheric deployment; by my comment I meant that the payload's radiators would be inside the fairing along with the rest of the payload, since that would be the only part of the vehicle that would *have* radiators. It would seem to me that a radiator would not behave well under 1.5atm of pressure (which is about the static + dynamic pressure peak you'd get on ascent)...

Skylab*cough*heatshield*cough*solarpanel*coughcoughcough*

[NathanKell]

Quite.

10char

[MrHatty]

I have another compatibility request if anyone has the time. The OPT Space Plane Parts pack. I've been messing about with them in a stock game file and they're pretty cool parts, if a bit OP in my opinion. I'm taking a crack at a config myself, but since they have somewhat of a similar infrastructure to the new B9 parts where as the tanks can be configured as RCS, LFO, or standard fuel tanks from just one part, I'm not really sure if I need to do anything special to ensure they will actually work like they should with the mod. Anyone willing to give it a try?

The cockpits seem to be compatible with Real Fuels right out of the box (as well as TAC life support happily).

http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/225018-opt-space-plane-parts-v1-4

Edited December 7, 2014 by MrHatty

[Northstar1989]

Here's the log file for the problems I was getting with many fuel tanks not working with RealFuels. Raptor seems to think there is a bug going on, because some of these errors he can't duplicate on his own save. Maybe this will help you guys track this down...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kLJnJL0tLnRDV5RHQ3OWtBOVk/view?usp=sharing

Also, you said you removed the KSPI config?

and I removed the KSPI config.

I assume you just mean from the 8.1 release? (which is old news) Dreadicon submitted a pull request to you some time ago (which was accepted) that included the revised integration config (after which he disappeared off the radar- I was never able to get him to finish up some of the odds-and-ends he said he still wanted to work on with the config). I have to point out that the vast majority of the integration changes were things like changing resource names/densities- so they *do* properly belong in the base RealFuels mod (and not en engine config). Raptor has separately included configs for some of the engines in KSPI in "Stockalike"- those were not part of Dreadicon's pull request...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 7, 2014 by Northstar1989

[NathanKell]

Yes, dreadicon's pull is in the 8.2pre release.

As for your issues: you're getting some exceptions from KSPI. As to fuel tanks not being configured, I wouldn't call that a bug unless they *used* to be configured; it's just not-extensive-enough feature yet.

I'll try to add them at some point, although PRs adding RF support to various parts are *always* most welcome.