[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Northstar1989]

Yes, dreadicon's pull is in the 8.2pre release.

Good. Excellent. Although, the integration-config might somehow be tied up with the bugs I am experiencing, as I theorized before... (I was previously play-testing some of his changes with one of the 8.1 pre-releases, instead of the latest version of RealFuels- it seems this may have been a mistake...)

As for your issues: you're getting some exceptions from KSPI. As to fuel tanks not being configured, I wouldn't call that a bug unless they *used* to be configured; it's just not-extensive-enough feature yet.

I haven't changes or updated KSP-Interstellar at all, so that just confirms my theory there's something wrong with how RealFuels and KSP-Interstellar are currently interacting. There weren't any problems back when I was using one of the 8.1 dev versions of Realfuels, and I had the same version of KSP-Interstellar installed (in fact, it was the same save- and I haven't changes the Interstellar folder in any way since then).

As for the fuel tanks, Raptor seems to think they were already fixed for RealFuels 8.2 pre. He says those same tanks are showing up as containing realistic fuels for him.

I'll try to add them at some point, although PRs adding RF support to various parts are *always* most welcome.

I'm not sure what you meant by that last bit. What, specifically, are you saying you'll try to add???

Regards,

Northstar

[Raptor831]

I'm not sure what you meant by that last bit. What, specifically, are you saying you'll try to add???

I think he meant getting more tank configs into the main RF release.

I've looked over your log and I can't find a blasted thing that would be causing it. There's no other MM config that I can tell that's affecting the engine, and the KSPI errors don't seem to be something bothering the engine. Still could be obviously, but who knows. If you can figure out what the end config for that engine is by going into the game database (cheat menu) and finding that part, then that's the last thing I know to check.

Errors like this bug the crap out of me. Couldn't just be something easy that goes "Hey, fix me!"

[Starwaster]

Here's the log file for the problems I was getting with many fuel tanks not working with RealFuels. Raptor seems to think there is a bug going on, because some of these errors he can't duplicate on his own save. Maybe this will help you guys track this down...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kLJnJL0tLnRDV5RHQ3OWtBOVk/view?usp=sharing

Yes, dreadicon's pull is in the 8.2pre release.

As for your issues: you're getting some exceptions from KSPI. As to fuel tanks not being configured, I wouldn't call that a bug unless they *used* to be configured; it's just not-extensive-enough feature yet.

Additionally

	Line 23472: [ModuleManager] ModuleManager: 721 patches applied, found 4 errors
	Line 23473: 4 errors in GameData/RealFuels/KSPI_RF.cfg

and

[ModuleManager] Applying node RealFuels/KSPI_RF/@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:FOR[RealFuels] to WarpPlugin/Parts/FuelTank/fnmethaneTank/part/FNMethaneTank3-1

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)


[ModuleManager] Cannot parse variable search when editing key volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)


[ModuleManager] Cannot parse variable search when editing key volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)


[ModuleManager] Applying node RealFuels/KSPI_RF/@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:FOR[RealFuels] to WarpPlugin/Parts/FuelTank/fnmethaneTank/part2/FNMethaneTank3-2

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)


[ModuleManager] Cannot parse variable search when editing key volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)


[ModuleManager] Cannot parse variable search when editing key volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$

Not being familiar with KSPI or the parts that have the exceptions, I don't know if they're linked, but there's something wrong in that config before KSPI or RF get involved. (those are Module Manager errors)

[Northstar1989]

Not being familiar with KSPI or the parts that have the exceptions, I don't know if they're linked, but there's something wrong in that config before KSPI or RF get involved. (those are Module Manager errors)

Those look to be issues with the code Dreadicon wrote up to fix the Methane fuel tanks. They shouldn't directly affect the Meth/LOX engine (though I'll have to double-check if the volumes are correct for the fuel tanks- it looks like ModuleManager was unable to overwrite the original tank volumes), and certainly shouldn't affect any of the other parts that are bugged (like the Mk2 fuselages that are back to carrying LF/O).

Regards,

Northstar

[astropapi1]

Couple of questions I've got:

1) How do you set up a config for a new engine? There's some squad engines (rapier and O-10 come to mind), but I can't find any relevant MM configs, only for tanks.

2) Does this work with the Space Shuttle Engines mod engines? I'm using the stockalike config, if it matters.

[Northstar1989]

One more bit to add to my bug report:

None of the engines with multiple possible fuel modes are tweakable, and tech levels do not show/ are not adjustable when right-clicking on engines for me. For instance, this engine from NovaPunch2 is supposed to work with both HydroLox and hypergolics- but is currently stuck on hypergolics, and has no visible tech level I can tweak...

I'm not sure how much of the source of this problem might lie in code that's in the base RealFuels mod, and how much might be part of the "Stockalike" config, which is why I'm posting it in both threads... The problems with the engines would point at Stockalike, but the problems with the fuel tanks would point at the base mod...

Arghh, why do these things always have to be so frustrating.

Regards,

Northstar

[Raptor831]

Couple of questions I've got:

1) How do you set up a config for a new engine? There's some squad engines (rapier and O-10 come to mind), but I can't find any relevant MM configs, only for tanks.

2) Does this work with the Space Shuttle Engines mod engines? I'm using the stockalike config, if it matters.

There's an XLS in the Stockalike download (and technically on the OP here) that I use to generate the configs. You can start there. Stockalike has the O-10 in it (I believe!), but the RAPIER only switches to RF fuels, not a full on config. Also, I'm working on an easier way to generate these configs, so hopefully that will be ready before Christmas...

The Stockalike config also includes the SSE mod's engines. I used them previously, and I never had any trouble.

[asmi]

For instance, this engine from NovaPunch2 is supposed to work with both HydroLox and hypergolics- but is currently stuck on hypergolics, and has no visible tech level I can tweak...

So much for realism - would love to see an engine that can run on hypergolics (no ignition system is required as fuel mixture ignites on contact, external cooling is required as fuels are non-cryogenic) and HydroLOx (extremely complicated ignition system, can be cooled by hydrogen). That's not to mention massive differences in fuel flow (and as such radically different turbopumps)... Nobel prize is hiding somewhere here

[undercoveryankee]

So much for realism - would love to see an engine that can run on hypergolics (no ignition system is required as fuel mixture ignites on contact, external cooling is required as fuels are non-cryogenic) and HydroLOx (extremely complicated ignition system, can be cooled by hydrogen). That's not to mention massive differences in fuel flow (and as such radically different turbopumps)... Nobel prize is hiding somewhere here

It is possible to have a family of engines with common engineering that includes both cryo and hypergolic models, though. The Aerojet LR-87 (Titan first stage) was first developed as a kerolox engine, redesigned for storable hypergolics, and then a hydrolox version was prototyped but lost to the J-2.

And even beyond the possibility of variants within a recognizable engine "family," you might use mode switching to represent similar-looking engines from different origins. The Titan core and Centaur upper stage are both 3.05m, so I might grab KW's Vesta VR9D to represent both the LR87 and the Centaur's dual RL-10 cluster.

[Raptor831]

So much for realism - would love to see an engine that can run on hypergolics (no ignition system is required as fuel mixture ignites on contact, external cooling is required as fuels are non-cryogenic) and HydroLOx (extremely complicated ignition system, can be cooled by hydrogen). That's not to mention massive differences in fuel flow (and as such radically different turbopumps)... Nobel prize is hiding somewhere here

The Stockalike configs do fudge that a bit. True, the engines really shouldn't be able to switch from hydrolox to kerolox to MMH/NTO, but it makes for more interesting decisions in the VAB. At least they can't switch mixtures mid flight. That would be a Nobel prize!

[Starwaster]

It is possible to have a family of engines with common engineering that includes both cryo and hypergolic models, though. The Aerojet LR-87 (Titan first stage) was first developed as a kerolox engine, redesigned for storable hypergolics, and then a hydrolox version was prototyped but lost to the J-2.

And even beyond the possibility of variants within a recognizable engine "family," you might use mode switching to represent similar-looking engines from different origins. The Titan core and Centaur upper stage are both 3.05m, so I might grab KW's Vesta VR9D to represent both the LR87 and the Centaur's dual RL-10 cluster.

So much this.

The Stockalike configs do fudge that a bit. True, the engines really shouldn't be able to switch from hydrolox to kerolox to MMH/NTO, but it makes for more interesting decisions in the VAB. At least they can't switch mixtures mid flight. That would be a Nobel prize!

See above! Instead of literally thinking of them as the same engine, just think of it as redesigned or retooled at worst. At best it's a totally new engine that just happens to look the same.

[Raptor831]

See above! Instead of literally thinking of them as the same engine, just think of it as redesigned or retooled at worst. At best it's a totally new engine that just happens to look the same.

Well, true. I really need to limit some fuel mixtures to later tech levels on more engines in my configs. Would make for some more interesting progression in career mode.

[Northstar1989]

I know this is a cross-post, but... It's necessary as this bug affects both RealFuels (the fuel tanks) and Stockalike (the engines). Raptor seems to think the issue is actually with RealFuels, as the engine context menus don't open up (but the engine use the default realistic fuels just fine according to the debug console)

Re-installed RealFuels (the latest dev build), Stockalike (2.06), and KSP-Interstellar (0.13) AGAIN, as well as updating ModuleManager to 2.5.3 and Tech Manager (mod used for custom tech trees such as the one for KSP-Interstellar) to 1.5, and it's still bugged:

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The fuel tanks are broken- they only hold LF/O. The engines won't tweak off their default fuel mode, and have no tech levels. And the worst part is, I have absolutely NO IDEA what's causing this...

Clearly, it's an issue with the base RealFuels mod, at least in part, though- as the fuel tanks are also broken.

I found the debug menu, but how do I export it?

Regards,

Northstar

[Raptor831]

Geez, this one's going to be a beast. Looks like MM is applying the patches correctly, since you have multiple ModuleEngineConfig CONFIG nodes, and the Engine Ignitor stuff is there. Real Fuels is not coming up properly, because the fuel tanks and engines don't have the menus right. Do you know if this was happening when you exported the logfile you posted earlier? I didn't notice any RF errors there, but just in case I missed them. If you use TweakScale, I'd remove that mod for a sec to see what it does. Last time the KSPAPIExtentions.dll got broke by an update, this is what happened for me. The .dll that comes with RF should be fine, but it may be TweakScale derping or something.

I know Interstellar messes with it's own engines and the jets (heating models), but does it adjust anything else, like thrust values? I haven't used KSPI in a while (and when I tested the part I only loaded up the methane engine, not the entire plugin suite), so I'm not really sure. Anyone else have RF/Stockalike/KSPI working?

At this point, if it were me, I'd make a new install and start from scratch. Add mods until something breaks, and then you might have your culprit. Or, you'll find it was some weird install glitch that broke something. Not sure how that works with the Steam version, since I didn't get KSP through there.

As for exporting the config, I really don't know how to do that. Anyone who does, feel free to chime in.

EDIT: Whoops, meant for this to end up in the Stockalike thread. Ah, well, works over here too.

[komodo]

I was going to ask if it ran any plugins, but it looks like it does... in a vacuum, no pun intended, it sounds like the windows 8 dodgy dll bug. (win8 doesn't like to execute unsigned dll files out of the program files directory.)

There is the search by halves bug search as well. Pick half the addons, disable them, then check the bug. If gone, it's in the removed half, if present, it's...

[asmi]

The Stockalike configs do fudge that a bit. True, the engines really shouldn't be able to switch from hydrolox to kerolox to MMH/NTO, but it makes for more interesting decisions in the VAB. At least they can't switch mixtures mid flight. That would be a Nobel prize!

There are few exceptions though in real life - for example RD-0146 engine has been repeatedly test-fired using HydroLOx and MethaLOx. RD-0110 has also been fire-tested with MethaLOx, but there were modifications (although as far as I know they were mostly aimed to adding more instrumentation to a serial-produced unit that was meant to run on KeroLOx). There are also rumors that NK-33 can also run on MethaLOx (couldn't find reliable sources to confirm or deny it, although it is known that it's quite accommodating with regards to fuel - the same unit can run on both RG-1 kerosene and RP-1, either subcooled or not), and there were studies for modifying RD-1xx family engines to run on MethaLOx (can't remember which exactly engine it was).

So some combinations of fuels are actually plausible, but not mixing up hypergolics and regular fuels as they drive radically different engine designs, and just about the only part that can be re-used is nozzle bell.

[NathanKell]

Northstar1989, as of the last log you posted (which I combed in a bit more detail), RealFuels was not installed--or at any rate the plugin was not. This really sounds like you got a bad archive, or ran it through a virus scanner that removed the dll. Please check in your GameData/RealFuels/Plugins folder and tell us the sizes (in bytes, not bytes-on-disk) of all files there.

[Northstar1989]

Northstar1989, as of the last log you posted (which I combed in a bit more detail), RealFuels was not installed--or at any rate the plugin was not. This really sounds like you got a bad archive, or ran it through a virus scanner that removed the dll. Please check in your GameData/RealFuels/Plugins folder and tell us the sizes (in bytes, not bytes-on-disk) of all files there.

Oh phooey. You're right. The DLL is actually missing altogether.

The only logical explanation for that is that my virus scanner (I recently switched antivirus programs) removed the .DLL without asking. I'll try disabling the antivirus and downloading it again (either the antivirus or 7-zip is somehow destroying the .DLL, and since I used 7-zip for my earlier installs that worked, I'm inclined to say it's probably the antivirus...)

EDIT: Looks like it *wasn't* the antivirus' fault. There is currently NO DLL in the file you get by downloading the .ZIP folder directly from Github, period. I'm probably the only person experiencing this problem because (a) I'm using the dev build rather than the latest release, as I need to play-test the KSP-Interstellar integration config in the latest version rather than 8.1, and ( I'm using the "RealFuels" folder from the Master .ZIP folder you get from Github, without reconstructing/recompiling the folders directly from the source- which I assume is what the devs are doing when they work on updating the mod...

Where can I find the *LATEST* .dll file? (NOT the one from 8.1, the latest stable one for 8.2) Once again, I need to perform some play-testing of the KSP-Interstellar integration configs with the upcoming 8.2 build, as they're not even included in 8.1, so that I can get Dreadicon news on whether it works (and maybe fix some bugs myself if I can figure out how...) now that he's finally come out of hibernation on the project...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 10, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Raptor831]

Oh phooey. You're right. The DLL is actually missing altogether.

The only logical explanation for that is that my virus scanner (I recently switched antivirus programs) removed the .DLL without asking. I'll try disabling the antivirus and downloading it again (either the antivirus or 7-zip is somehow destroying the .DLL, and since I used 7-zip for my earlier installs that worked, I'm inclined to say it's probably the antivirus...)

EDIT: Looks like it *wasn't* the antivirus' fault. There is currently NO DLL in the file you get by downloading the .ZIP folder directly from Github, period. I'm probably the only person experiencing this problem because (a) I'm using the dev build rather than the latest release, as I need to play-test the KSP-Interstellar integration config in the latest version rather than 8.1, and ( I'm using the "RealFuels" folder from the Master .ZIP folder you get from Github, without reconstructing/recompiling the folders directly from the source- which I assume is what the devs are doing when they work on updating the mod...

Where can I find the *LATEST* .dll file? (NOT the one from 8.1, the latest stable one for 8.2) Once again, I need to perform some play-testing of the KSP-Interstellar integration configs with the upcoming 8.2 build, as they're not even included in 8.1, so that I can get Dreadicon news on whether it works (and maybe fix some bugs myself if I can figure out how...) now that he's finally come out of hibernation on the project...

Regards,

Northstar

The .dll files only come with a release. The config files you can get from grabbing the repo, but the .dll files are compiled from the source and added to a release.

[Starwaster]

These should do it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ig4cuv5s5xo7c7/RealFuels.8.2.zip?dl=1

Still in the process of testing the compilation but everything looks ok so far.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Starwaster
reinstated link.

[internerd]

Where do I find Real Engines config. The thread linked on page 1 is now closed.

Thanks in advance.

[Starman4308]

Where do I find Real Engines config. The thread linked on page 1 is now closed.

Thanks in advance.

It's been completely merged into Realism Overhaul. If you want Real Engines, you install RO.

[Northstar1989]

These should do it

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ig4cuv5s5xo7c7/RealFuels.8.2.zip?dl=1

Still in the process of testing the compilation but everything looks ok so far.

Awesome! That fixed everything!

I feel bad wasting your guys' time with a set of bugs that turned out to be entirely due to a missing .DLL, but at least you guys were patient with me and helpful.

I'll try to get the final version of the KSP-Interstellar integration config posted soon (there are only 4 odds/ends left to cover at this point), and then hopefully I'll be able to lay off bugging you guys for a while, except to express my appreciation for this awesome mod.

Regards,

Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Good news!

Rabada has sent me the latest version of the Nova Aerostrake-based Thermal Fin part he created, so that I can share it with you guys:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/aj8nch2v3fnx77p/AAAKTjGtm9fpHCds1_RVfnqUa?dl=0

This part should be a lot more aerodynamic replacement for the current boxy Thermal Fin.

Additionally, Labhouse contacted me a while back about creating a replacement Thermal Fin model as well. So I might have another (possibly even better) model to post from him soon as well! (he won't be writing up a corresponding config though- so I'll have to do that for him before I can post it...)

EDIT: The part Rabada shared with me was clearly overpowered in terms of heat dissipation for its mass and surface area, and he didn't correct the right fields to adjust its attachment strength in relation to its greater ratio of mass/drag to contact area with the surface attaches to (he tried to edit this parameter, but did so incorrectly).

So I edited the part config to have the the same ratio of heat dissipation to mass as the existing Thermal Fin part (if it's more effective for its surface area, that's not necessarily a problem- some of the increased mass for the surface area could represent more powerful heat-exchange equipment creating a larger temperature difference with the inside of the fuel tank).

I also fixed a few other odds and ends (such as reducing the Max Temperature to a more reasonable number for a thermal fin), and increased the strength of its attachment in correlation with its sturdier shape (it has significantly more contact area with the tank below it relative to its surface area compared with the existing Thermal Fin- so I increased BreakingTorque, for instance)

Here is a link to the UPDATED folder in my Dropbox. I'd submit a pull request, but I don't know how. Please include this in the dev build (and the next release) of RealFuels if it looks good to you.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7v29geiqf8x1d1m/AADewSgV7v0Zo7PLVq1H0SAJa?dl=0

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 11, 2014 by Northstar1989

[NathanKell]

Great! Thanks so much for that stuff. I'll take a peek and get it in RF.

In other news, per above kicking this out the door so I can work (well, work with taniwha) on getting RF ready for .90.

Changelog:

v8.2

*Update heat pumps (thanks Starwaster)

*Fix added parts to be MM clones

*taniwha: lots of refactoring

*regex: add lots of missing tanks (FASA, HGR, NP2, RLA, SXT)

*dreadicon: improved KSPI config

*camlost: RetroFuture tank configs

*TriggerAu: include icons for ARP in RealFuels rather than in ARP

*taniwha: correct tank cost calcs

*Raptor831: Add missing NP2, HGR tanks; Add Taurus pod/SM tanks

*lilienthal: fix Thermal Fin description

*Starman-4308: Add configs for Modular Rocket System

*Add support for the 0.625m tanks in Ven's Stock Part Revamp

*Show tank/fuel cost in GUI

*Lower Solid Fuel and ElectricCharge costs (oops)

*Fix so science sandbox is still detected as "has R&D tree"

*Add setting for unit label

*A Modular Engine will switch to the first available config if its current config is not available (due to requiring a tech tree node you don't have researched).

*Starman4308: SpaceY tank configs

*Starwaster: configs for TT's Mk2 nosecone and Nertea's MkIV system.