Expanding the Kerbal

[Hyomoto]

On paper, sure. But you can't tell me that the plane piloted by Manfred von Richtoffen would perform exactly the same as the one piloted by Gunther Pastor. Similarly, you can't tell me that a ship crewed by crack engineers won't perform better than one staffed by part-time car mechanics.

I can, and I am. This assumes that the Kerbals are taking a highly active, low-level role in the performance of the ship. This isn't Star Trek. We aren't beseeching Scotty for every bit of power he can muster. These are finely tuned rockets, the Flight Engineer may make minor adjustments to throttles but for the most part he's just making sure everything is within safe parameters. Watching the dials doesn't make the rocket go faster, its a safety of flight position. That's really where the problem here comes from. Two pilots may have different comfort levels, personal conditioning and skills, but the PLANE has the same characteristics. So unless you want to fly as Fumbles Kerman, really all you are saying is there should be debuffs for less talented pilots. And at that case we're talking performance and control familiarity, and reaction times, things not easily simulated without directly handicapping a talented player. After all, the player is Fumbles or Jebadiah. Throughout his playtime he evolves from one into the other and without changing stats by actually understanding performance characteristics, operational limitations and control familiarity.

And guess what? The rocket/plane and performance never changed. There is a difference between pilot skill levels, but it isn't something you can model usefully in the game without either opening it up to exploits or pointless min/maxing. After all, barring goofing off, are you going to pick the less skilled pilot? Or are you going to view anything less than maximum proficiency as being a waste of time. The answer to that is a gimme, and there's very little justification otherwise, let alone any based on sound practice.

[coolitic]

Hmm, not sure what to say to this. Like some other people said maybe have more sciency kerbals that are good at science or maybe an engineer that can repair more kinds of items. However, while I'm fine with special kerbals being more expensive I dont want it to affect flight performance.

[Capt Snuggler]

Piloting skill and training of kerbonaults for setting G-LOC threshold is the best idea I've heard in here.

thank you, im pretty proud of it. though your the only one who has noticed. G-force is already measured in game. seems logical torment the kerbals with it.

[Mobjack]

The whats the point of Kerbals? May as well have everything unmanned. Kerbals are just silly little graphics at the moment that have no game impact.

Kerbals have an important role of giving the game personality. Instead of a serious space sim, you have a crackpot space agency who makes wacky untested designs that will likely fail.

The Kerbal scientists and engineers are smart enough not to be the guinea pigs for their own creations. That is why they find Kerbals who are either really stupid or really brave to fly them.

[Sapphire Snow Leopard]

Maybe the different types of Kerbals could have small, but noticeable, increases/decreases in stats?

I.E: Even if you have a totally inexperienced scientist manning the helm of a spaceship, she can still fly, but with a slightly lower reaction time and maybe a tiny chance of a miscommunication, as in the spacecraft yaws right when you command left. If the buff is small enough, then a hulking mass of ducktape and wishes still won't be nearly as good as a finely tuned masterpiece even with a pilot who can practically mind-meld with his machine, and vice-versa. That is the key here. The pilot is important, but he needs a good box for his skills to truly be shown. Kerbals need justification, they are utterly useless at the moment as there are mods that make them completely unneeded even for EVA and surface sample reports. As well, when the economy system is introduced, it might be a nice bit of difficulty to have differently skilled Kerbals with different payrates, so you have to start out with the less skilled pilots and engineers and slowly train or hire better ones.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Sapphire Snow Leopard

[r4pt0r]

On paper, sure. But you can't tell me that the plane piloted by Manfred von Richtoffen would perform exactly the same as the one piloted by Gunther Pastor. Similarly, you can't tell me that a ship crewed by crack engineers won't perform better than one staffed by part-time car mechanics.

every DR.1 triplane has the same flight envelope/charecteristics. as would every Albatros D.III

[Sapphire Snow Leopard]

every DR.1 triplane has the same flight envelope/charecteristics. as would every Albatros D.III

Yes they all do, but those were early airplanes with but a few gauges and a flight stick. A spacecraft will have multitudes of instruments, some of which might not make sense to someone who went to school to be a scientist. As well, a less experienced pilot might not be familiar with all of the quirks and characteristics of the aircraft/spacecraft,

[AletzN1]

How about this

Pilots: piloting

Scientist: Science

Engineers: reparing

just my two pesos.

[Capt Snuggler]

How about this

Pilots: piloting

Scientist: Science

Engineers: reparing

just my two pesos.

but astronauts are multi-skilled individuals its the degree of each skill that needs to be represented in-game.

*also

everybody, meet THIS thread

Edited January 28, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[crazyewok]

Id split the science mission specialists into 4 Science categories.

Physics, Chemistry, Biology and environmental science

Physics give you a science point bonus in Orbit craft crew reports and EVA reports. Chemistry gives you a bonus in solid and liquid surface samples, Biologists the same but on words which could sustain micro-organisms, Environmental scientists give bonus for atmosphere analysis.

Id also have

Pilots: that are needed to fly the craft. Using a pilots wont give any more or less advantage than playing now expect maybe a small SAS with experience. But you will want one on your craft as flying without a pilot would be difficult.

Engineer: Gives a structural integrity bonus and a small fuel and energy out put increase. I would also add KAS and have only Engineer allowed to set up struts in EVA.

Tourist: Doesn't do anything but take up space but give you a big money boost (when moneys added)

Teacher: ( Based on the NASA program) Like the tourist doesn't do much but increases the quality of Kerbal Kerbalnaughts quality as it will encourage education back on Kerbin.

Miner: When resources are added gives a boost in resource collection.

And I can think of a few good colonist ideas.

Also I would say that Kerbals can have a mix of the above skills so you can have a pilot with a secoundary skill in Chemistry ect But these would be more expensive to hire.

[r4pt0r]

>miner

why is every one so keen on mining and resources? i think its entirely unreasonable to add a game-play mechanic in our space sim that no real nation has even remotely attempted. part of the challenge is navigating the system using only kerbin originating fuel. that necessitates mission planning and sending orbital refueling stations to other bodies. does it not put anyone else off that we are supposed to be able to mine raw rocket-fuel presumably less than 50 yards underground on foreign planets and moons using very portable parts?

[crazyewok]

>miner

why is every one so keen on mining and resources?

Heres a Idea dont like it DONT DO IT! Its a sandbox game so you can pick and choose what you do. I hate space planes so guess what I DONT USE THEM. But what I dont do it come crying on the forums that no one else should have them too.

Plus I could see resources as a way to generate money when money introduced like what the company planetary resources http://www.planetaryresources.com/ is trying to do. Also I could see it being a thing that could be adapted to orbital construction like the OPSEK as a way to reduce construction costs. Lots of things.

Anyway this isnt the thread to discuss it. Its for possible Kerbal uses. And seeing as mining is just delayed for abit its a valid use.

[r4pt0r]

Heres a Idea dont like it DONT DO IT!

precisely why i don't have kethane installed.

I'm glad the devs shelved resources so that their time can be better spent on the actual game.

[crazyewok]

precisely why i don't have kethane installed.

I'm glad the devs shelved resources so that their time can be better spent on the actual game.

Well good for you. Just dont get in the way of how other want to play and jump on those that disagree.

[Capt Snuggler]

putting peoples opinions on resources to one side.

I also want to emphasis my point about "pilot skill" "flight experience and G-LOC threshold.

Here is a video showing people experiencing G-LOC, to prove that my idea is based on fact.

it is a genuine issue, that must be accounted for when training astronauts and planning missions IRL.

If you imagine that at first most Kerbals would have little experience with high g-forces, cannot cope with it and will pass out. don't put these guys at the controls until they have more flight experience.

but the guys with little flight experience (pilot skill) will likely be better at other things (probably).

ALL kerbals should be able to perform all tasks. just some will be better at some things. they should have a combination of skills, each with a numerical value and get paid accordingly. a kerbal that is good at everything gets paid more.

Flying experience = G-LOC threshold or how many Gs they can endure before blacking out (see above) this should NOT change the way a craft handles.

Ground science = geology, chemistry, environmental science. = affects the amount of science gained from ground experiments.

Space science = physics, astrophysics, astronomy. = affects the amount of science gained from experiments in space.

Engineering = communications, repairs, operating equipment, maybe building? = affects the amount of time it takes to perform repairs and the amount of science lost through transmission. science gained from "ship status reports".

Coolness/charm = sun glasses, haircut, swagger = affects the amount reputation gained from performing tasks (which links to funding) also affects how much they scream when launching.

we can't have every type of scientist guys. too complex and intimidating and unlikely to happen even if you want it. ground science and space science is a compromise. and kerbaly one too.

Jebediah Kermin

Flight experience: 96

Ground Science: 5

Space Science: 13

Engineering: 37

Coolness: 110

mission specialist = could be a spacial type of kerbal. you don't pay them, they pay you. (mission/contracts) they are not crew but merely a passenger. they only have flight experience and coolness. they are just there to do their thing and go home.

[Majorjim!]

Hi Snuggler,

As someone who only plays sandbox, how would these changes effect it? Would we have just the G-lock?

And with no budget I guess you could just hire the best guys.

MJ

[TimMartland]

putting peoples opinions on resources to one side.

I also want to emphasis my point about "pilot skill" "flight experience and G-LOC threshold.

Here is a video showing people experiencing G-LOC, to prove that my idea is based on fact.

it is a genuine issue, that must be accounted for when training astronauts and planning missions IRL.

If you imagine that at first most Kerbals would have little experience with high g-forces, cannot cope with it and will pass out. don't put these guys at the controls until they have more flight experience.

but the guys with little flight experience (pilot skill) will likely be better at other things (probably).

ALL kerbals should be able to perform all tasks. just some will be better at some things. they should have a combination of skills, each with a numerical value and get paid accordingly. a kerbal that is good at everything gets paid more.

Flying experience = G-LOC threshold or how many Gs they can endure before blacking out (see above) this should NOT change the way a craft handles.

Ground science = geology, chemistry, environmental science. = affects the amount of science gained from ground experiments.

Space science = physics, astrophysics, astronomy. = affects the amount of science gained from experiments in space.

Engineering = communications, repairs, operating equipment, maybe building? = affects the amount of time it takes to perform repairs and the amount of science lost through transmission. science gained from "ship status reports".

Coolness/charm = sun glasses, haircut, swagger = affects the amount reputation gained from performing tasks (which links to funding) also affects how much they scream when launching.

we can't have every type of scientist guys. too complex and intimidating and unlikely to happen even if you want it. ground science and space science is a compromise. and kerbaly one too.

http://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/d3/d39864e7d6a562a826a355b07c6e16605110f867_full.jpg

Jebediah Kermin

Flight experience: 96

Ground Science: 5

Space Science: 13

Engineering: 37

Coolness: 110

mission specialist = could be a spacial type of kerbal. you don't pay them, they pay you. (mission/contracts) they are not crew but merely a passenger. they only have flight experience and coolness. they are just there to do their thing and go home.

Good thinking! This is probably the best way to go I have seen suggested so far. Much better than just 3 'classes'

[Capt Snuggler]

Hi Snuggler,

As someone who only plays sandbox, how would these changes effect it? Would we have just the G-lock?

And with no budget I guess you could just hire the best guys.

MJ

thanks. yeah in sandbox you have no budget so just hire the best of the best, or the worst of the worst and train them up.

They would be like a ball of clay and your space program, and harsh training regime will shape and mold the most dim-witted, frightened Kerbals, in to cool-headed, professional Kerbonauts!

Edited January 28, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Tilion]

ALL kerbals should be able to perform all tasks. just some will be better at some things. they should have a combination of skills, each with a numerical value and get paid accordingly. a kerbal that is good at everything gets paid more.

Flying experience = G-LOC threshold or how many Gs they can endure before blacking out (see above) this should NOT change the way a craft handles.

Ground science = geology, chemistry, environmental science. = affects the amount of science gained from ground experiments.

Space science = physics, astrophysics, astronomy. = affects the amount of science gained from experiments in space.

Engineering = communications, repairs, operating equipment, maybe building? = affects the amount of time it takes to perform repairs and the amount of science lost through transmission. science gained from "ship status reports".

Coolness/charm = sun glasses, haircut, swagger = affects the amount reputation gained from performing tasks (which links to funding) also affects how much they scream when launching.

we can't have every type of scientist guys. too complex and intimidating and unlikely to happen even if you want it. ground science and space science is a compromise. and kerbaly one too.

http://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/d3/d39864e7d6a562a826a355b07c6e16605110f867_full.jpg

Jebediah Kermin

Flight experience: 96

Ground Science: 5

Space Science: 13

Engineering: 37

Coolness: 110

mission specialist = could be a spacial type of kerbal. you don't pay them, they pay you. (mission/contracts) they are not crew but merely a passenger. they only have flight experience and coolness. they are just there to do their thing and go home.

Yep, in general, this is the best compromise so far - assuming the guys would actually want to implement something like this...

To put my own twist on & maybe refine Snuggler's system, I would suggest having just a 0-10 skill level (Jeb of course, cranked up to 11) being far simpler to both operate and comprehend (re. the skill level to effect ratio):

All Kerbals may have pre-existing aptitudes giving an extra +1 to +4 per field, only two fields may be raised to the +3/+4 level. Only the original trio and certain mission specialists start with higher ranked abilities. Further skill gain can only be accomplished by experience.

• Flight - All Kerbals bar mission specialists would start with Flight 1 (could of course, be higher with aptitude) which is enough to operate craft (never a change or penalty to craft) but at level 1 they would still suffer G-LOC easily - the consequence of which (other than hilarious new animation) would be an inability to do any science from that vessel until they've recovered. Beyond the G-LOC effect, a mission/contract may require something like 'Pilot must have >= Flight 5',
  
  • Skill gain e.g.: 'Returned to Kerbin from High Orbit: Flight +1', 'Spent One Day in Space: Flight +1'
    

• Planetary Science - Kerbals may start with 0 skill in this field, each point provides 2% increase in planetary science output - whether recovered or transmitted, capped at 40% bonus (two level 10 Planetary Scientists).
  
  • Skill gain e.g.: 'Taken 5 Surface Samples: P.Sci +1', 'Performed EVA in Extrakerbestrial Biome: P.Sci +1', 'Provided Extrakerbestrial High Atmosphere Crew Report: P.Sci +1'
    

• Space Science - Kerbals may start with 0 skill in this field, each point provides 2% increase in space science output - whether recovered or transmitted, capped at 40% bonus (two level 10 Space Scientists).
  
  • Skill gain e.g.: 'Performed 1 Hour Orbital EVA: S.Sci +1', 'Processed 10 Scientific Reports: S.Sci +1','Cleaned 5 Science Instruments; S.Sci +1'
    

• Engineering - Kerbals may start with 0 skill in this field and Engineering 1 is required to perform repair functions; each point provides 2% increase in crew report output. 2% reduction in transmitting cost to both sci. loss & electric charge (due to better resource/equipment management), capped at 40% bonus (two level 10 Engineers).
  
  • Skill gain e.g.: 'Performed First EVA Repair: Eng. +1', 'Transmitted 30 Reports: Eng. +1'
    

• Fame - Kerbals may start with 0 'skill' in this field, each point provides 2% increase in mission reputation (in addition to all the great intangibles Capt. Snuggler mentioned for 'Coolness'). Capped at 50% (launching massive ships with loads of Kerbals aboard IS inherently gonna be more reknowned, even if only in 2% increments).
  
  • 'Skill' gain e.g.: 'Performed First Ever Orbital Flight: Fame +2', 'Safely Returned from First Ever Mun Landing: +5'
    

As you can tell from my envisaged skill gains, several of these things (primarily Fame!) would ding when you recover the Kerbal's craft, though the science stuff is aimed more for slowly developing skills during missions.

Mission Specialists I would change up a bit from the Capt.'s definition, though keeping their appearance in-game linked to a particular mission/contract objective. Each one would have to be uniquely configured for the mission, of course, but as a general rule I would give them 0 Flight skill as standard, unless they specifically required it (e.g.: Report on Jool's atmosphere during aerocapture) - they aren't there to do the flying. You could build whatever variant of MS you can envisage within these parameters depending on the mission and they would only really come into play for their presence at a key mission checkpoint (as in the example), without which the mission fails. As an added bonus, an MS's skills still benefit other phases of the mission, though I would not allow them to gain experience.

?!?...Sorry 'bout the big gaps - there's only a single line space between things when I edit...?!?

Edited January 29, 2014 by Tilion
Formatting glitch!

[tetryds]

I'm not sure about that idea, Tilion.

Yet, the only part of it i'm heavily against is Fame.

You can have titles for being the first to land somewhere but IRL, other than historically important astronauts, they aren't really famous even after several missions.

[Tilion]

Well, tetryds, thanks for the feedback - I was just looking for a way to quantify Snuggler's idea in relation to the science & such. Tying each point boost to specific easily-correlated gains seemed the best way.

Re. the Fame thing (I'm gonna live forever, I'm gonna learn how to fly - high!). We're not IRL here, we're the KSP: a planet-hogging, species-defining, all-encompassing endeavour. The lil' guys are bound to be a tad more well-known than Earth's astronauts, but I do see your point. Maybe what the Fame 'skill' needs is a very slow degradation while stuck in the astronaut centre, so unless your Kerbal has that 'title-equivalent' permanent boost from say, 'First Kerbal Munar Surface EVA' or similar (or is one of our orange-suited heroes) then all their accomplishments are, eventually, for nought...

Edited January 29, 2014 by Tilion

[Capt Snuggler]

first off, thank you for liking my idea and for your thoughts.

Yep, in general, this is the best compromise so far - assuming the guys would actually want to implement something like this...

To put my own twist on & maybe refine Snuggler's system, I would suggest having just a 0-10 skill level (Jeb of course, cranked up to 11) being far simpler to both operate and comprehend (re. the skill level to effect ratio):

All Kerbals may have pre-existing aptitudes giving an extra +1 to +4 per field, only two fields may be raised to the +3/+4 level. *snip*

yup, much better/cleaner.

kerbals should come to the space program with some experience. you then get the option to just hire a new planetary science guy for your eve mission because your other planetary science guy is on Duna. this gives players the option to avoid the grind of training if they wish.

the guys with skills need to cost more and there should always be a way to just "buy" specialists for players who don't want to engage with the whole training experience system. just have them priced accordingly.

at least with the science skills that is. guys with flight experience should be pretty rare but not impossible to find. kerbals being the species they are, there is bound to be some out there building wacky home made rockets and endangering there lives for fun.

however I don't think they should get flight skill from just orbiting. too easy to time warp to level 10. it should be active flight time. under power, experiencing G-forces, re-entry heat, crashing but surviving. they don't have to be at the controls, but being at the controls should provide greater gains. FLIGHT SKOOL! put you noob kerbal in control and your pro kerbal in the co-pilot seat. if/when the noob blacks out the pro kerbal automatically takes control. (could also use probe cores) this way the noob gets maximum gains from active command-flight time, with a bit of a safety net.

also looking at the engineering skill. you say a guy at level 0 cannot perform any repair task. I agree. my nephew cannot fix his bike (0 engineering skill). but he can observe repairs being carried out and learn. could the there e a learn by observation system?

if you want you could gather all your new recruits observing a veteran guy perform landing leg repairs or gathering rock samples around the KSC. kerbonaut skool! this kind of grind can be completely avoided if you wish, you can just get out there and do it but the player should decide if they want to train kerbals first.

it shouldn't be passive though. you should have to tell noob kerbal to observe pro kerbal, and then pro kerbal performs task noob kerbal gains knowledge.

regarding the 10 levels of proficiency rather than 100. I guess your right but the should be a progress bar so the kerbals learning is not completely invisible to the player.

Cheers guys!

Edited January 29, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[MisiuWielki]

The only thing that bothers me about pilots and G-LOC is fact, that probe cores aren't affected by it, so pilots may become a bit unnecessary.

[Capt Snuggler]

The only thing that bothers me about pilots and G-LOC is fact, that probe cores aren't affected by it, so pilots may become a bit unnecessary.

yeah good point. dedicated pilots with no other skills will become unnecessary as you progress through career mode. so other skills (engineering, planetary sciences, space sciences, fame/coolness) will need to be developed for that kerbal to remain useful.

two things:

1. probe cores only generate a fraction of the "Rep" and your space program needs reputation to secure funding.

2. probe cores are also very expensive and require constant power flow and power management. and RTGs are a late game item.

maybe probe cores could also have a reboot delay if they loose power? where as a kerbal can assume control right away as long as they remain conscious. this would make them less suitable for certain tasks.

*edit: the flight experience/pilot skill doesn't become worthless. kerbals can't do science or repairs if they are unconscious.

also you could make the inline probes a late game item, giving players a design challenge, if they want to include a stayputnic on there kerbal carrying craft.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[tetryds]

Making probe cores a low-risk low-rep deal is great.

You wouldnt get as much reputation sending a probe to space as you would sending Jeb.

So, you would use probes to test prototype aircraft, failing wouldnt be so bad, making it work wouldnt be so good either.

Then you use it manned for serious stuff.