Wormholes for interestellar travel

[JimmyAgent007]

of course it is a matter of opinion. Im just trying to keep things as a constructive discussion rather than argue without substance. sure it might not work at all and we could all just be spinning our wheels if we cant figure anything the devs would accept. but there is a chance that there might be some kind of solution if we put all the ideas on the table and talk about them constructively. the what not to suggest list is there to stop "givz us warp drivez now!" posts. not to stop actual discussion. of course its sci-fi, but its also a game and we need to figure out the least sci-fi method possible that might work. wormholes dont require any tech part to achieve and i like that, but the super heavy/expensive FTL drive you need to use in deep space might also work, these are the ideas we are trying to go for. since neither actually exist beyond theory we need to accept a bit of sci-fi with them. but the devs have stated that they dont want warp drives, so we need a natural phenomena instead. not saying they wont change their minds if we figure something workable, but this thread was made to discuss the use of wormholes if they were ever implemented in the game. so lets stop attacking each other for our ideas and focus on that. if you dont agree thats fine

[LordOfTheOrbits]

A not concrete yet accepted and physically proven theory is far different from FTL drive, the term "Faster Than Light" itself is already physically impossible (under the known physics).

And that there is no way to prove or reproduce an Alcubiere Drive with current technology.

There is also no way to prove or reproduce wormholes with current technology.

Currently no observational evidence of wormholes exist, but if wormholes are possible, an Alcubiere Drive is also possible as those rely on the same theories.

Also I don't like the idea of wormholes often being in a near polar orbit, because you would have to spend thousands of m/s of delta-V to incline your orbit to get an encounter.

[JimmyAgent007]

that was the point of the polar orbit, to make it hard to get too. but i could settle instead for them just being hard to locate. I just didnt think it should be something you could get too without the tech tree maxed out late in the game. where would you put a wormhole?

[Dunbaratu]

I think the discussion is premature because long before anyone talks about how to get to a second solar system one first has to talk about getting SQUAD to accept that it's worthwhile to have a second solar system at all. They don't even want one to exist as a separate independent universe in which you start a new campaign in that solar system and never go between the two solar systems.

Step 1 - Get SQUAD to accept the need for more than one solar system.

Step 2 - Decide whether it's independent solar systems in different universes that never touch, or whether or not the game should track where one solar system is relative to the other and have them live in the same universe so it might be possible to go between them.

Step 3 - THEN talk about FTL methods of getting between them.

We're not even able to get past step 1 with SQUAD. They don't even want different solar systems supported period, not even as separate independent campaign environments. I don't agree with with them about this, but they believe that it's necessary for everyone to play in the same solar system so people can talk online and share their experiences and advice on how to do things.

[JimmyAgent007]

Squad might be more receptive to a new solar system if we show them a viable manner of getting there. A bit like multiplayer, they didnt start working on it till someone showed them how it could work. Even if they never do anything we talk about, its still a possibility for mods so why not have it worked out in either case.

[Terran]

I think part of SQUAD's issue with extra systems is their perception that such systems would be random, if procedurally generated, and different between even different saves on the same client, or would be an unreasonably large amount of work to produce, if hand crafted.

If, maybe, someone could introduce them to the concept of the "seed" (something David Braben explains rather plainly and well

)...

Unless I've misunderstood SQUAD's reasoning.

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On the subject of modding other solar systems into the game, I think the best way to do that would be to treat them as separate scenes from Kerbol's scene, and then create some way to transition between the two scenes. You don't need all the space between the stars, you just need the stars and the space immediately surrounding them. As for how to create that transition, I rather like what Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven did in The Mote in God's Eye with the Alderson Drive.

The Alderson Drive would move you to another point in space instantaneously, but only from another specific point in space. Activating the drive anywhere but one of these special points would simply consume a lot of energy and do didly squat else. These points are typically billions of miles from the star, and are stationary relative to it. Moving around within the system is still be by way of rocket engine, and still requires interplanetary amounts of deltaV, and still takes weeks or months. Using one of these "Alderson Points" also required the ship in question to come to a complete stop relative to the point before activating its drive.

In KSP terms, I imagine that it would require a large, heavy drive module (probably at least the size and mass of the hitchhiker storage container, though the actual mass could be tweaked for balance), large amounts of electricity (several z-4k's worth), and would require enough fuel to get the transition point, stop, transition, establish an orbit on the other side, and then get to your destination.

Ideally, getting to and from one of these transition points should make getting to Jool look like a cakewalk in comparison, in terms of distance and the deltaV needed.

The Alderson Drive had another effect in the book, which was to, essentially, temporarily short-circut both human brains and computer systems, rendering the ship in question inert 'till the effect wore off, but I think that would be a bit much in the context of KSP.

[Dunbaratu]

Squad might be more receptive to a new solar system if we show them a viable manner of getting there. A bit like multiplayer, they didnt start working on it till someone showed them how it could work. Even if they never do anything we talk about, its still a possibility for mods so why not have it worked out in either case.

The point of what I said is that they don't even want multiple solar systems EVEN IF TRAVEL BETWEEN THEM IS NO ISSUE. Because they don't even want the ability to pick a different solar system at campaign start and stay in it forever for that campaign.

Since they don't even want that much to happen, the issue of travel between solar systems isn't even related to the problem yet. They don't even want non-traversable multiple solar systems.

Right now even Mods can't make their own solar systems.

[nholzric]

The point of what I said is that they don't even want multiple solar systems EVEN IF TRAVEL BETWEEN THEM IS NO ISSUE. Because they don't even want the ability to pick a different solar system at campaign start and stay in it forever for that campaign.

Do you know or did they say why?

"... pick a different solar system at campaign start and stay in it forever..." So instead of starting on Kerbin you could start on some other planet in another solar system? I guess that reduces the common experience a little bit but that seems like a silly reason for not wanting multiple solar systems. I just want to understand your post Steven Mading - I must be missing something.

[JimmyAgent007]

Im aware there are issues preventing this, my whole point is that this thread, is to discuss wormholes and how they are used within KSP if they are ever implemented. If someday they are then we already have things worked out, if not, then mods might have the power to do it. Its about a possible solution, not how necessary it is. I dont understand why so many people are offended by this topic. If you think it will never be relevant then ignore it. Those of us who like the idea just want to talk about it.

[Skyler4856]

Warp drive: Uses a bubble of exotic matter to warp space-time so that it can exceed the speed of light.

Wormhole: a black hole lined with exotic matter that shortens the distance between to distant points, effectively allowing a ship to travel at super luminal speeds.

I don't see a difference.

From what I know, wormholes don't occur naturally. They are created by lining the interior of a black hole with colossal amounts of exotic matter. But in order for it to work, the black hole needs to have a stable connection with a white hole. Afterwards, you can only go from one place to another.

Warp drives use a far smaller amount of Exotic matter to create a bubble around itself. While it takes significantly longer than a wormhole, it has the benefit of not being limited to only one destination. Since it needs to warp space around it, it can not function deep within a gravity well. The drive also has power limitations, range limitations, and speed limitations, while being possible to build with near future tech. These are all balancing factors that make a warp drive much more plausible as an endgame form of interstellar travel.

Wormholes may exist, but would collapse after less than one plank length of time. A black whole (despite the whims of every "sci-fi" show that throws the term around) is just a suuuuuuuuuuuupppppppppppper massive object thats escape velocity is higher than the speed of light.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Skyler4856

[kBob]

I think once the developers realize the need for more solar systems they will find a way be it FTL, wormholes or parallel universes. The real problem is if they ever see this need, i.e. will it enhance sales, will possibly yes as an add-on.

Re: wormholes I can't see them as any more real than an FTL drive. In fact I never really understood wormholes, don't you need a singularity to create one? If so wouldn't you be crushed to a near point trying to travel into one?

As for needing the worm holes to be really hard to find, I'm not sure why, given the distances involved and support required you would need to be fairly well up in the tech tree to exploit them (or in sandbox, of course) so shouldn't it be up to the player as to when to try and use them.

[JimmyAgent007]

given that we dont actually know how wormholes work, the way i think of them is as two points in space and time that have been folded together or linked in some manner. kind of like the game Portal or Star Trek DS9

[Dunbaratu]

Do you know or did they say why?

I'm probably the wrong person to defend their position on this since I don't agree with it. The claim is that the user community would have no shared experience to swap stories and strategies if every player had their own slightly different solar system with different planets at different positions in it. But I think that would only be a problem if there were hundreds of thousands of different auto-generated solar systems where ever player gets their own personal solar system. I don't think that would be a problem if there were just a few static manually designed solar systems to pick between.

[Holo]

Since these naturally occurring wormholes need to be lined with exotic matter to function, couldn't you mine this exotic matter to build a warp drive? It would give an interesting progression from Chemical → Nuclear → (Fusion) → Wormhole → Alcubierre, and make it so that interstellar travel becomes easier once you've done it several times on a save file.

[Serratus]

One think that occured to me about wormholes. If they require You to have a black hole first, wouldn't it mean that they will be really far away from any solar system? So assuming You COULD use them as space highways, You would still need and FTL drive to get to them first... And on the other end, You'd end up deep in space, far away from any solar system. Plus, as I understand a black-hole entry point has its exit at something called "white hole", which unlike black holes, has never been observed before and as far as we know doesn't exist...

[iStickyDuck]

Love the idea of Wormholes, but a wormhole isn't just through space. It goes through spacetime meaning you could end up anywhere in the universe at any time make a wormhole a hell of a lot more complicated...

Nothing against wormholes because they are natural anomalies so would not be contradicting the idea of only present day technologies

[Random Tank]

Necro?

People need to face the facts: Squad aren't going to add other Star Systems... Well, I would be extremely surprised if they did. This is a game about generally realistic space travel; travelling to other star systems via wormhole or FTL drive isn't realistic, as we haven't/can't do it yet, so they aren't gonna put it into the game.

[Javster]

It would have to be on a very tricky orbit to avoid the eternal "IT'S OP OMG!!!!11!!!!ONE!!!" issue.

[KaBob]

This is probably my least favorite idea for reaching other systems. Generation ships, near light speed travel and actual FTL all feel more realistic than using wormholes to reach other systems. If you're worried about balance, the engines could be extremely expensive to operate. That way you'd have to save up to afford enough fuel to reach another system and once you got there you'd be out of it and have to resort to normal engines until you could build up your colony.

Also keep in mind that travelling to other systems, if it is added, will essentially be an end-game to KSP. The KSC has mastered all the science there is in their solar system and head out to the stars to explore new ones. It kind of cheapens the accomplishment if all you have to do is fly through a wormhole.

[Dwight_js]

Personally I'm hoping somebody adds a Holtzman, fold-space drive. Only a 10% chance of reaching your destination alive until you unlock Melange addicted, precient Kerbals floating in spice tanks from the tech tree.

[Mitchz95]

I could see some kind of wormhole generation technology being close to the end of the tech tree. But I imagine it'd have to be coupled with precise maneuvering to avoid being OP.

[kalor]

So we're okay with imaginary life-forms (not proven and completely unsubstantiated, in current science), and the existence of wormholes (also not proven to exist, much less any way to utilize or detect them), but not okay with FTL, which NASA is currently working on, and that is at least hypothetically possible?

Just clarifying. Also, Einstein's special relativity doesn't state that nothing can travel faster than light, only that nothing can travel faster than a massless particle, which light may not be