Discuss: MJ makes KSP more acceptable to Junior player. Hence, create more QUESTIONS.

[Sirine]

As per subject.

Please state your point of view.

"Just restraint yourself for quoting other post. And you will be fine."

"Keep this discussion on telling people how you feel about this topic. Not by telling agree or disagree on other people point of view. Just state yours, not quote on others. Thanks."

Edited February 11, 2014 by Sirine
Add something to make this thread...legit.

[FITorion]

Well first could you rewrite the subject... but in English this time?

Defining things such as MJ, Junior player, and what in the world "Hence, create more QUESTIONS." means would go a long way.

[SpaceGremlin]

Yes and no. If a new player is introduced to MJ too early they can become hopelessly dependent on it. They should at least learn and be familiar with the basics, such as orbiting, Hohmann transfers, and landing on the Mun. Then Mechjeb becomes a great tool to help them to learn docking, precision landing, or interplanetary transfers.

Much like the upcoming tutorials, players need to figure out at least some of it on their own. If you handhold them all the way you rob them of the lightbulb moments that make KSP fun.

[Demon_82]

Half of the manuevers, I learnt them by watching MJ doing them. It's a nice tool for repetitive tasks or for the ones that you can't do... and you end up being able to do them as well xD

[Spica]

I have to say that Mechjeb taught me practically everything about flying in KSP, from orbiting, to munar landings, to interplanetary transfers.

I was indeed completely dependent on it, then I decided to not use it anymore. Now, I'm a great pilot, and great designer as well.

[NGTOne]

I honed my design skills first using MechJeb, then when one of the new versions came out, I just... stopped using it. I kind of miss the DV readouts, though.

[lajoswinkler]

My KSP skills came mainly from being into astronomy and practice. Early this summer, as a rookie in this game, I did it all manually and it was lots of swear words and then satisfaction.

Later I've tried to use MechJeb for some time just to see what it's all about, but it's like it takes away something from the game experience.

If I ever feel the need to do lots of repetitive stuff like hauling numerous massive objects somewhere, I'll probably use it again.

Until then, I enjoy manual work, especially landing.

[KvickFlygarn87]

I have to say that Mechjeb taught me practically everything about flying in KSP, from orbiting, to munar landings, to interplanetary transfers.

I was indeed completely dependent on it, then I decided to not use it anymore. Now, I'm a great pilot, and great designer as well.

Exactly this.

[Kerbart]

Much like the upcoming tutorials, players need to figure out at least some of it on their own. If you handhold them all the way you rob them of the lightbulb moments that make KSP fun.

It's always dangerous to make assumptions on how others should play the game in order to enjoy it.

They can also be turned off because despite trying hundreds of times they can't get something done. Seeing how MJ does things is a great way to learn some of the complexities, as others have mentioned.

[FITorion]

I guess these other posters are more perceptive than I. I had no idea what you were trying to say until they posted.

This game has a huge barrier to entry. The need to on some level understand how orbits work even if only rudimentary. The tutorials are being redone and they should take care of the basics. I don't doubt that people have learned a lot about hoe to do things from mechjeb... but they should have learned that from tutorials. Sadly the tutorials have been lacking meaning people had to watch youtube videos and use mechjeb to learn... but thankfully that's changing.

Once you have the basics the huge satisfaction you get from doing something yourself should not be discounted. The fact that squad plans on putting a form of auto-pilot into the game should not be discounted either.

I do not think that having mechjeb would be good for new players. I think when an auto pilot becomes available it should be later in the game to help automate large projects.

[SirJoab]

I use Mechjeb constantly. I learned to fly without it, but quickly got bored of ascent into orbit. My love of KSP is in the designing of the ships... I'm quite happy to build them and let Mechjeb put them through their paces.

I also have to agree that Mechjeb is a good teaching tool. I've learned a lot of nice little tricks from it. I still pilot my own ships when I'm mood, but most of the time I prefer to watch Jeb do it with better precision than I can. (...landings... )

[mikeydz]

Once you have the basics the huge satisfaction you get from doing something yourself should not be discounted. The fact that squad plans on putting a form of auto-pilot into the game should not be discounted either.

I would discount it. SQUAD won't be putting in an autopilot system in KSP, especially not in the 1st full release version of the game. That's already mentioned in the "planned features" wiki, and "what not to suggest" thread.

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/36863-What-not-to-suggest

[regex]

Is this another troll thread? I feel like I've seen quite a few troll threads lately. If it's not a troll thread then why is it a thread? If someone wants to use MechJeb, new or old, for whatever reason, that's their business. I swear, people around here are so concerned about how other people play the game you'd think it was a matter of the utmost importance to the nation or something. Unless you're participating in a challenge or some other competition it literally doesn't matter.

[mikeydz]

Is this another troll thread? I feel like I've seen quite a few troll threads lately. If it's not a troll thread then why is it a thread? If someone wants to use MechJeb, new or old, for whatever reason, that's their business. I swear, people around here are so concerned about how other people play the game you'd think it was a matter of the utmost importance to the nation or something. Unless you're participating in a challenge or some other competition it literally doesn't matter.

If Stanley Kubrick was still alive, I'm sure he'd make a movie called "Dr. Jeblove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Endless "Discuss MechJeb" Threads"

[Deathsoul097]

I use MJ a lot. There. But I use it in career. Which is different. How, you ask? MJ doesnt even get unlocked until several tiers into the tree, and at that point you have almost none of the functions, just the info readouts, the manouver planner and some untility functions. The auto pilot for ascent and landing isnt unlocked for another two tiers. Rondevouez and docking autopilots arent unlocked until the same tier, but are on the complete opposite side of the tree. Even then, there are still more parts to MJ to unlock. You have to work to get the autopilots, but by that point you have flown/landed/transmitted/returned enough to kow how to do alot of the main parts of the game. At that point MJ just takes away from the tedium of launching and doing everything you have already done many, many times before, and allows you to do other things at the same time (Which for me is usually listening to the radio chatter, music and effects in the background while getting awesome (In the traditional sense of the word.) cinematic views,and truly amazing screenshots. I use MJ's "Smart A.S.S." Exclusively on my stations so that they rotate in sync with the surface, so it looks like it is stationary in free mode. Truly Awesome!

Assembled with the help of mechjeb, my second (and possibly the most minimalistc station I have ever made) space station in my current career mode, which I started last week. Consisting of a measley three modules, I give you; SpaceLab-1:

I made this with MJ's assistance in career. I didn't have rondevouez, docking or ascent autopilot when I made it, so this is almost completely me. And I am proud to say that.

(Also, Troll thread is troll.)

Edited February 10, 2014 by Deathsoul097

[viccie211]

I haven't used Mechjeb at all. I learned it just by trying and failing and watching a lot of YouTube video's. I will not say I wouldn't like it but I like doing the mundane stuff as getting into orbit. It will probably help new players like my friends who can't do anything in KSP. But Scott Manley and even Kurtjmac taught me a lot about KSP. I think the ingame tutorials(when done well) would get rookie players farther on their own instead of using MechJeb.

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

I have to say that Mechjeb taught me practically everything about flying in KSP, from orbiting, to munar landings, to interplanetary transfers.

I was indeed completely dependent on it, then I decided to not use it anymore. Now, I'm a great pilot, and great designer as well.

Likewise except the part about being a great pilot.

I still use it for some things, though. Like keep the ship pointing into the maneuver node (much "stronger" than the built-in SAS) or to ascend with big, laggy ships that are hard to control by hand.

[iNUKE]

Heres my point of view:

As a new KSP player, but an avid to video games for 10 years almost non stop (mmorpgs mostly);

Many MJ functions are good, the INFO ones for new players.

However the automation ones should NOT be available to new players, as they dont provide anything but the total loss of interest in the game as it kills all the purpose in learning.

On the other hand, I think MJ is great for veteran players, who have done a gazillion of times all of the launching, landing, routing etc, and its become a quite boring process to repeat over and over.

So the solution IMO is (if its even possible): Have MJ available to download, but only activate the automation tools on accounts that have proven to be old enough. And this could be detected by achievements (if they were implemented in the game core), or total science points achieved, for example.

[Kerbart]

However the automation ones should NOT be available to new players, as they dont provide anything but the total loss of interest in the game as it kills all the purpose in learning.

The danger here is that you start deciding how others should play/enjoy the game. Why stop with MJ?

• Quicksave and Revert Flight allows you to be careless and "just do something" instead of thinking about what you're doing first. Let's make those not available until you've returned some Kerbals from Duna
  
• Docking with aligned RCS ports is way to easy to learn it. The COM indicator will only be available in the VAB after completing at least 10 dockings
  
• All those planets and moons are way too intimidating and even demotivating for new players. Only after a planting a flag on Mun, Minmus will be available. Flag planting on Minmus will unlock Duna, etc.
  
• Maneuver Nodes make it way to easy. Unlock them only after a succesful first orbit
  

Yes, this is a ridiculous list. On purpose. But the real question is: where would you draw the line? Mind you, Mechjeb is a choice, you don't have to install it. I think that forcing players to play a sandbox game "the right way" is just plain silly.

So the solution IMO is (if its even possible): Have MJ available to download, but only activate the automation tools on accounts that have proven to be old enough. And this could be detected by achievements (if they were implemented in the game core), or total science points achieved, for example.

You mean the way it's working in career mode right now?

[Uncle Mort]

MJ isn't available at the start of the game. You need to unlock science to get to the first part which is only the statistic information anyway. As you progress up the tree you unlock more. So IMO it works well for new players, they would have built and launched a few rockets before automation is available.

[Roxette]

My point of view is that like most internet forums, the number of trolls here is too damn high.

[PDCWolf]

I think you guys are too used to Skunky. Guess what, he's not here anymore. I want to believe discussing mechjeb is no longer taboo as long as we keep things civil.

A million times, one more doesn't hurt. I think mechjeb is too powerful a tool, it just cuts an important part of a spaceflight game, which is the spaceflight part. You are obviously free to use it the way you want, as much as you want, but if you want my opinion (Why the thread is here), don't use the autopilot functions until you've done everything there's to do in the game by yourself. Otherwise not only are you killing a part of the game that you'll never discover, but you are also ruining the experience SQUAD wants to transmit with the base game.

[sjwt]

I think you guys are too used to Skunky. Guess what, he's not here anymore. I want to believe discussing mechjeb is no longer taboo as long as we keep things civil..

It has always been fine to discuss MJ, the problem is that for a lot of ppl Discussion to quickly devolves into arguments and wrose.

[FITorion]

I would discount it. SQUAD won't be putting in an autopilot system in KSP, especially not in the 1st full release version of the game. That's already mentioned in the "planned features" wiki, and "what not to suggest" thread.

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/36863-What-not-to-suggest

Then those are out of date as they have said in multiple interviews that they plan on putting just such a feature in the game. Centered around training the Kerbals to do things.

[SpaceGremlin]

Mechjeb doesn't kill discovery, it can greatly aid it by being an interactive tutorial. As long as a player has a good enough grasp of the basics to understand what MJ is doing they can attempt it themselves. The way MJ is introduced in career mode does a great job preventing early over reliance on it. Besides, most players eventually realize that they can fly better than Mechjeb and scale back their usage as they improve. Pretty much all I use it for these days is the dV calculator, orbital info, and for flying extremely long maneuver nodes.

I'd caution newer players to wait until they've hit some of the early milestones (like Mun landing) before trying Mechjeb, then go crazy with it if they want to. MJ is like trying to teach someone math and handing them a TI-89. Too soon and it hinders their learning, but eventually it becomes a great tool for learning more advanced concepts.