Getting most interesting mods into the stock game.

[Ghost13]

Many of us using the game with multiple mods. More parts, life support, Remote Tech, KAS, you name it. I think that it would speed up the game development process if there would be way for a developers to take the code from the community and incorporate it into the stock game (with authors permission of course). Just like there was logo contest for the game the same way polls and contests maybe performed for a new game features to be included into the stock game. I believe there was few precedents some of the mod pats became part of the stock game, why not to widen these practice. The barebone stock game is fairly limited in so many ways. What do you think?

Edited March 13, 2014 by Vanamonde

[magnemoe]

This has been done an long time, aircrafts started as an mod. Here the moder was hired by Squad.

Same is true in many other games, plenty of mods from Oblivion made it into Skyrim.

[Merinsan]

I think there is a good chance it would slow down the development.

They need to incorporate code into their own, which is likely following different coding standards, doing things in ways that are possibly unsafe. To ensure quality they'd have to go through most of the code themselves.

[Red Iron Crown]

I think there is a good chance it would slow down the development.

They need to incorporate code into their own, which is likely following different coding standards, doing things in ways that are possibly unsafe. To ensure quality they'd have to go through most of the code themselves.

Code review generally takes less time than code creation. I'd be floored if incorporating a mod into the game took more dev time than making equivalent functionality from scratch.

There may be licensing issues as some of the mods are released under viral licenses. Though I suppose Squad could negotiate a more suitable license with the modder.

[kiwiak]

I think that mods improving game, like alarm clock, select root, precisenode, (this is actually gonna get implemented) fuel ballancing etc shoudl be implemented first...

Squad shoudl concetrate to refining game, base for modders to work on.. Leave things like remotetech for them, i just want to have good performance, handy intuitive interface etc, without installing 20 mods.

[*Aqua*]

I think without access to the full source code of KSP modders won't be able to integrate their mod in the game the right way. Unfortunately there is no way Squad will let a modder look inside their code. Therefore there is a lot confusion among the modders how the game works. I made the same experience. It's quite hard to understand what happens where and when and you usually need hours, days and weeks to reverse engineer just a small part of the game mechanics.

Conclusion: Mods will nearly always be inferior to what Squad can do.

Question: Why would Squad review mod code when they know it has to be reprogrammed to integrate it into the game?

[blizzy78]

I think Squad is only hurting themselves by not producing API documentation. Not only would they benefit from it, but KSP essentially lives from mod support. Yes you can do quite a lot with stock, but mods add a whole lot more. So to foster the modding community, you ought to produce documentation. Lots of it.

[pauix]

I think Squad is only hurting themselves by not producing API documentation. Not only would they benefit from it, but KSP essentially lives from mod support. Yes you can do quite a lot with stock, but mods add a whole lot more. So to foster the modding community, you ought to produce documentation. Lots of it.

Having an API would be awesome. I've always wanted to make a mod for a game (I have no idea what to make, but I'll come to that part later), but I don't even know where to start.

[blizzy78]

I've always wanted to make a mod for a game (I have no idea what to make, but I'll come to that part later), but I don't even know where to start.

It's not that hard actually, because KSP plugins on the forums and Spaceport are required to provide source code which you can learn from. Also, TriggerAu has produced example plugins that should help you get started.

[Jouni]

The problem with technical documentation is that it's extremely boring to write and almost impossible to maintain up-to-date. Maybe we'll get some documentation after 1.0, when the game is in some sense finished, but at least I would prefer Squad spending their time to finish the 1.0 first.

[cantab]

Seems to me that already KSP has a healthy modding community and that a fair number of mods have made it "into stock".

Other than FAR, I'm not sure what mods really need to be in the stock game.

[blizzy78]

The problem with technical documentation is that it's extremely boring to write and almost impossible to maintain up-to-date. Maybe we'll get some documentation after 1.0

It doesn't get more interesting to write when you need to write even more, which would be the case after developing more features. So you better start sooner rather than later.

[Justin Kerbice]

It doesn't get more interesting to write when you need to write even more, which would be the case after developing more features. So you better start sooner rather than later.

Boring to write maybe (unless kind of people who like such job), but as it is now, we're just closer and closer to the point of no return as there is not really official doc of the game itself, as well as modding docs so... I admit I'm pessimistic but looking at the facts says we'll never get docs.

The huge advantage, for Squad itself, of creating docs on-the-fly (or after) is allowing new devs to dive into coding faster and more efficiently.

[Jouni]

It doesn't get more interesting to write when you need to write even more, which would be the case after developing more features. So you better start sooner rather than later.

As I said, a detailed API documentation is almost impossible to to maintain. If Squad released such documentation for 0.24, it would probably be outdated and full of errors by 0.27. If you need to understand the details of an API, read the source code. There are no shortcuts to it.

[blizzy78]

As I said, a detailed API documentation is almost impossible to to maintain. If Squad released such documentation for 0.24, it would probably be outdated and full of errors by 0.27.

If you're unable to maintain your documentation to keep up with the current state of the code, you're doing it wrong. Or you're not trying hard enough.

If you need to understand the details of an API, read the source code. There are no shortcuts to it.

Fine. Give me the source code then.

[ArmchairGravy]

I think all of the mods you like playing with are not all the mods I like playing with. Making them all stock will change how a lot of people play the game. I play with just KER and Kethane. Why should I load up the memory footprint of mods I don't want if they are made stock? If they are to be toggle-able, why not just leave them mods?

[Camacha]

I think mods could have a place where placeholders are still being used, such as the aerodynamics model. I am unsure of other places placeholders can be found, though there probably are a few.

Unfortunately, developments seems to focus more and more on story telling mechanics (such as contracts) than baseline items such as the drag model. I can understand that, but feel there are still quite some improvements to be made.

As I said, a detailed API documentation is almost impossible to to maintain. If Squad released such documentation for 0.24, it would probably be outdated and full of errors by 0.27. If you need to understand the details of an API, read the source code. There are no shortcuts to it.

Proper documentation not only helps others, it also helps the developer. There really is no acceptable excuse for not doing it or not doing it properly.

[NecroBones]

I think all of the mods you like playing with are not all the mods I like playing with. Making them all stock will change how a lot of people play the game. I play with just KER and Kethane. Why should I load up the memory footprint of mods I don't want if they are made stock? If they are to be toggle-able, why not just leave them mods?

(Emphasis mine) That's the crux of it, right there. Not everyone wants the same extended features.

The things that I think really *need* to be added are the informational displays from some of the mods. We should have overall weight, TWR, and delta-V estimates available in the VAB, for instance (such as what you can get with Engineer or MechJeb). I'd really like a radar (topographical) altimeter display that doesn't require looking in the cockpit.

More parts, better aerodynamics, clouds & weather, robot arms, and the like would all be great stock additions. But the bulk of the mods out there probably add things that go beyond what's needed for everyone. So I think the devs are doing the right thing about carefully considering what gets added.

[Jouni]

If you're unable to maintain your documentation to keep up with the current state of the code, you're doing it wrong. Or you're not trying hard enough.

Everyone is doing it wrong. Unless the technical documentation is only high-level handwaving, it's best to think the documentation as another layer of code, with a lot of dependencies to everywhere. Those dependencies are the root of the problem, because they essentially guarantee that the source code and the documentation will be inconsistent after a while. Maintaining the documentation up-to-date and consistent is basically a similar feat as writing bug-free code.

[Red Iron Crown]

I think all of the mods you like playing with are not all the mods I like playing with. Making them all stock will change how a lot of people play the game. I play with just KER and Kethane. Why should I load up the memory footprint of mods I don't want if they are made stock? If they are to be toggle-able, why not just leave them mods?

Mods are unsupported by the devs and may be abandoned at any time by their creators.

You already load up the memory footprint of mods that have been made stock. Personally, I'm not a spaceplane guy, but I still have to sit through the loading of all the spaceplane parts every time I start the game, parts which used to be in a mod.

Mods that add core functionality should be integrated into the game. The only issue is what Squad feels is core functionality.

[blizzy78]

Maintaining the documentation up-to-date and consistent is basically a similar feat as writing bug-free code.

Possibly so, but simply raising your hands, giving up on documentation, and saying, "Use the source, Luke!" is not making it any better.

[cantab]

The things that I think really *need* to be added are the informational displays from some of the mods. We should have overall weight, TWR, and delta-V estimates available in the VAB, for instance (such as what you can get with Engineer or MechJeb).

Whereas I think they shouldn't be. I think the game is more accessible if players are encouraged to "wing it", to build rockets by intuition and guesswork, and find out if they'll reach orbit by trying to reach orbit. I played for over 50 hours before doing some manual delta-v calcs and then installing KER, and I don't think I needed or wanted it from the start.

[pauix]

It's not that hard actually, because KSP plugins on the forums and Spaceport are required to provide source code which you can learn from. Also, TriggerAu has produced example plugins that should help you get started.

Thanks, I'll check the link whenever I have time to read the code calm and thoroughly.

[Red Iron Crown]

Whereas I think they shouldn't be. I think the game is more accessible if players are encouraged to "wing it", to build rockets by intuition and guesswork, and find out if they'll reach orbit by trying to reach orbit. I played for over 50 hours before doing some manual delta-v calcs and then installing KER, and I don't think I needed or wanted it from the start.

That was fine when all we had was Kerbin and the Mun. Interplanetary trips almost require dV calculations, and the time spent on each attempt makes trial and error learning very tedious. I don't think the average new player could make it to another planet and back with the stock game without a large number of attempts. Not fun, by my standards.

Vessel mass, TWR and delta-V are fundamental numbers in rocket design, any non-trivial rocket should be analysed using them. The game gives us enough information to calculate them manually, but such calculation is time-consuming and tedious.

It may be that the game is more accessible to new players without those numbers, but in my opinion it becomes far more inaccessible for slightly less new players when they try to leave the Kerbin system without them. Not everyone is willing to install mods to get essential information, and for them the game quickly turns into math homework.

[CalculusWarrior]

I think all of the mods you like playing with are not all the mods I like playing with. Making them all stock will change how a lot of people play the game. I play with just KER and Kethane. Why should I load up the memory footprint of mods I don't want if they are made stock? If they are to be toggle-able, why not just leave them mods?

I completely agree. I play with a lot of visual enhancement mods and plugins, while adding very few new parts, but someone else could love new parts and add tonnes of those to the game. That's one of the great things about KSP, that you can customize the game to such a degree, and everyone's experience is different in some small way.