The ARM megathread

[AlamoVampire]

<snip> Who gives a damn about efficiency!? <snip>

1. I do.

2. You should too.

3. I am a veteran of the king of all grind games, Final Fantasy XI, where the ONLY way to level up was to grind monster after monster after monster and god forbid you die, because then you LOSE xp and potentially your LEVEL. So, given that I hate grinding, the faster I can punch out my science boxes the better. I want to pack as much science into a single bloody mission as I can, and back in .22 I did.

As to whomever said I can get as many science points by editing a save file, ya right. I know just enough about coding to A. return Jeb, Bill and Bob back to life, and that I can even screw THAT up if I am not careful enough. No, its either be able to hunt these buggers down in my current career mode or a career mode ending headache. Do I sound whiney? Probably, but, I honestly think that since they have managed to make each update <since I came here back at .21> NOT break the saves from the prior version <holds true from my POV from .21 into .22 and then into .23> that, there is 0 reason they cannot have these buggers spawn INTO current saves that it should be possible now.

Id request <knowing that our beloved devs do read this, that if one of them sees this, please clear up this mess, do we need new saves to see the asteroids with ARM or not.> Id ask those who have already had a chance to play with ARM to answer, but I think they are bound by NDA's atm.

[ArmchairGravy]

I heard that for Asteroids to spawn you need to start a new save. Anyone know how to move ships into a new game? Im not talking about ship designs(i run partless mods, so i should be ok) Im talking about moving the basic save into a new one? Ships in orbit are moved, stations, bases

I have been building up my MEGA save and i really really don't want to relaunch all my missions (50 current,4 major stations, 2 bases, and 3 outposts)

I'm going to save the .sfs files as text and try a merge. Sounds good in theory.

[AlamoVampire]

I heard that for Asteroids to spawn you need to start a new save. Anyone know how to move ships into a new game? Im not talking about ship designs(i run partless mods, so i should be ok) Im talking about moving the basic save into a new one? Ships in orbit are moved, stations, bases

I have been building up my MEGA save and i really really don't want to relaunch all my missions (50 current,4 major stations, 2 bases, and 3 outposts)

transfer ships and missions already underway with extreme caution. I had help moving a station that was in orbit from my SANDBOX to CAREER and it caused:

1. the MET of the station that as far as the sandbox was concerned had been in orbit 1 day and change, when planted into CAREER? 10 years and change, the kicker? Career mode was only 4 YEARS and change in game time.

2. the orbits <if in orbit> are very very likely to be MIRROR COPIES. I had my station <SB or Sandbox> in an orbit from SW HEADED NE, when transplanted into <CM or Careermode> it was now from the NW into the SE.

3. became absolutely DELETE, MODIFICATION VIA SAVE and CRASH PROOF. I forcibly deorbited this nightmare and aside from losing the extended solar panels this nightmare BOUNCED for several kilometers before stopping and being otherwise UNDAMAGED.

be very cautious if you intend such a transfer.

[Deathsoul097]

1. I do.

2. You should too. -Why?-

3. I am a veteran of the king of all grind games, Final Fantasy XI, where the ONLY way to level up was to grind monster after monster after monster and god forbid you die, because then you LOSE xp and potentially your LEVEL. So, given that I hate grinding, the faster I can punch out my science boxes the better. I want to pack as much science into a single bloody mission as I can, and back in .22 I did. Well, you still can. That max has just been lowered and made harder get. I do not see a problem with this, and it's not lie you lose science points or tech nodes if a mission crashes or fails.

As to whomever said I can get as many science points by editing a save file, ya right. I know just enough about coding to A. return Jeb, Bill and Bob back to life, and that I can even screw THAT up if I am not careful enough. No, its either be able to hunt these buggers down in my current career mode or a career mode ending headache. Do I sound whiney? Probably, but, I honestly think that since they have managed to make each update <since I came here back at .21> NOT break the saves from the prior version <holds true from my POV from .21 into .22 and then into .23> that, there is 0 reason they cannot have these buggers spawn INTO current saves that it should be possible now. I'm sure that there is a perfectly valid reason for them not being able to spawn in current saves. They wouldn't make it incompatible for no reason other than to make people update. Regardless, I don't really care anyway, as I always start a new save when a new release comes out, and sometimes saves don't even last that long.

Id request <knowing that our beloved devs do read this, that if one of them sees this, please clear up this mess, do we need new saves to see the asteroids with ARM or not.> Id ask those who have already had a chance to play with ARM to answer, but I think they are bound by NDA's atm.

I don't think SQUAD would mind testers telling people that they will or won't need a new savegame for the asteroids.

[AlamoVampire]

I just got CONFIRMATION from Scott Manley during his ONGOING STREAM that we DO NEED A NEW SAVE

Why should you want efficiency? Because it makes things quicker AND easier.

Now I have a bad headache, my career mode was wasted it seems. >:-(

[Deathsoul097]

I just got CONFIRMATION from Scott Manley during his ONGOING STREAM that we DO NEED A NEW SAVE

Why should you want efficiency? Because it makes things quicker AND easier.

Now I have a bad headache, my career mode was wasted it seems. >:-(

I respectfully disagree. Ever use a Mainsail? You wouldn't if you truly care for efficiency. Either way, I know one thing for sure: I will be bumping up the Thrust on the new SRB. I don't think it will be able to lift my planned Ares I replica without s boost.

[FEichinger]

Most likely it will just take a simple edit in the save file to fix (there's very few changes that go deep enough to actually require more than just a few lines edited or some copy/paste job). But, generally speaking, updates break saves, and it's hardly worth the trouble of implementing something to maintain compatibility when the game isn't even feature complete. That said, the patch isn't released yet, so it might well still change - after all, there's still testing going on and I'm sure this matter has been brought up already.

[AlamoVampire]

when it comes to getting my xp i want it as quickly and efficiently as I can, and sadly, send mission, burn 2 goo cans 2 mat bays on either holding 1 set of data each OR transmitting them, is inefficient, when I should be able to use the goo, after all I am not doing ANYTHING OTHER THAN LOOKING AT IT, as often as I need. I mean heck, do you toss your tv out after watching 1 show or 1 movie to get a new one? NO. Why? because its financially INEFFICIENT for you, and wholly flawed to toss something after viewing it ONCE. IMHO it should be the same for viewing goo or materials.

@FEichinger: I sincerely HOPE they make it so we dont need a NEW save to make them appear, because its gonna be the first update since what .21 to break a save file after an update? it may not be .24, but, its a large enough change to be an update itself i think.

Edited March 26, 2014 by AlamoVampire

[Rakaydos]

when it comes to getting my xp i want it as quickly and efficiently as I can, and sadly, send mission, burn 2 goo cans 2 mat bays on either holding 1 set of data each OR transmitting them, is inefficient, when I should be able to use the goo, after all I am not doing ANYTHING OTHER THAN LOOKING AT IT, as often as I need. I mean heck, do you toss your tv out after watching 1 show or 1 movie to get a new one? NO. Why? because its financially INEFFICIENT for you, and wholly flawed to toss something after viewing it ONCE. IMHO it should be the same for viewing goo or materials.

Good thing you have that science lab, where your kerbals can look at it and reset it. Didnt bring a science lab? Then who did you think were going to look at the science? (The pilot? Please, jeb doesnt have the attention span for that) Certiantly not the Probe core.

[AlamoVampire]

Good thing you have that science lab, where your kerbals can look at it and reset it. Didnt bring a science lab? Then who did you think were going to look at the science? (The pilot? Please, jeb doesnt have the attention span for that) Certiantly not the Probe core.

and if that thing was near the FRONT of the tree, then sure it would be more useful.

[Deathsoul097]

and if that thing was near the FRONT of the tree, then sure it would be more useful.

Have you even unlocked it yet? It is really near the front of the tree. It may look about halfway down, but things get much harder to unlock after each tier.

/OffTopic

Anyway, does anyone else plan on using the new parts in a constellation-esque setup? I would be really interested in seeing it done by others, especially all stock. (I know for a fact I won't do it stock, too much of an issue with partcount. Anything over 400 and it just gets unplayable.) My plan is to use Stock, MJ (Of course. I would not be bothered nor have the time to do that many launches by hand.), SDHI (And by implication, Realchutes, as the SDHI docking port doesn't work without it.), possibly a KW part here and there (Fairings, Class 3 docking and SRB nosecones, and that's it.) and Porkworks (Front hab of Copernicus) to do an almost complete replica. (Maybe ASET ALCOR for the Altair and it's variants too...) I think all I will need to do for customization is bump up the thrust of a duplicate of the new SRB, and add a bit more solid fuel to the LES.

[AlamoVampire]

Have you even unlocked it yet? It is really near the front of the tree. It may look about halfway down, but things get much harder to unlock after each tier.

/OffTopic

Anyway, does anyone else plan on using the new parts in a constellation-esque setup? I would be really interested in seeing it done by others, especially all stock. (I know for a fact I won't do it stock, too much of an issue with partcount. Anything over 400 and it just gets unplayable.) My plan is to use Stock, MJ (Of course. I would not be bothered nor have the time to do that many launches by hand.), SDHI (And by implication, Realchutes, as the SDHI docking port doesn't work without it.), possibly a KW part here and there (Fairings, Class 3 docking and SRB nosecones, and that's it.) and Porkworks (Front hab of Copernicus) to do an almost complete replica. (Maybe ASET ALCOR for the Altair and it's variants too...) I think all I will need to do for customization is bump up the thrust of a duplicate of the new SRB, and add a bit more solid fuel to the LES.

my tech tree was unlocked COMPLETELY a day perhaps TWO after .22 came out, so, it did NOT exist when I burned through the tree using this beast and several of its kin:

This thing was capable of 2-3k in science when used as intended.

[Bomoo]

The only things that bug me are the yellow exhaust for the KS-25, and they way the engines are oriented on it. The latest SLS design has them spaced evenly in a square shape, the one in game has them grouped together at the ends like the old 5 RS-25 engine SLS design. I don't know why, but I'm really obsessing over this haha.

This bugs me too. They ought to make the engine exhaust plumes visually consistent with the existing engines, and I don't see evidence of that being done. Posted this earlier in the thread, but I also wish the SLS engine clusters were modular pieces and not all baked together like they are.

[MKI]

and if that thing was near the FRONT of the tree, then sure it would be more useful.

The whole front of the tree can be completed with extremely aggressive mission using early parts. If you are less aggressive an efficient mission to either of the moons can yield more science than any single probe mission in .22

Take the Tech 0 Minimus mission for example, it just couldn't be done without .23 changes.

when it comes to getting my xp i want it as quickly and efficiently as I can, and sadly, send mission, burn 2 goo cans 2 mat bays on either holding 1 set of data each OR transmitting them, is inefficient, when I should be able to use the goo, after all I am not doing ANYTHING OTHER THAN LOOKING AT IT, as often as I need. I mean heck, do you toss your tv out after watching 1 show or 1 movie to get a new one? NO. Why? because its financially INEFFICIENT for you, and wholly flawed to toss something after viewing it ONCE. IMHO it should be the same for viewing goo or materials.

Technically your not viewing it at all, your transmitting data about it. Think of it as a SCIENCE LOAN. Unless you can PERSONALLY witness and experiment on it, and PHYSICALLY REMOVE its items, the canister is TRANSMITTING DATA ABOUT IT FOREVER. In gameplay terms, when you transmit the data, you get science, but you can't rerun the canister as its still has the previous data and setups witch are being transmitted FOREVER.

If you cared about efficiency, then send more than 4 science parts in a single launch. It isn't hard to make "Expendable" canisters and Make your ship returnable(which alone gives EXTRA science).

Or make a better mission to utilize the Science lab. Or make a detachable mission, that has multiple probes and a mother ship/station to get more variety of science. Or use a kerbal instead of science parts, as they are the single most efficient Science gathering unit. That is as long as you bring them home!

I feel you just do not like how things have changes, which has put expendable probes out of business without kerbal support.

[Deathsoul097]

This bugs me too. They ought to make the engine exhaust plumes visually consistent with the existing engines, and I don't see evidence of that being done. Posted this earlier in the thread, but I also wish the SLS engine clusters were modular pieces and not all baked together like they are.

I thought that Maxmaps or Yargnit mentioned on stream that they were planning on converting all of the current engines over to the new FX system that the R.A.P.I.E.R and NASA parts were using? I too would like the engine mount and engines to be modular (And allow for a centre mount ala Ares V.)

[AlamoVampire]

The whole front of the tree can be completed with extremely aggressive mission using early parts. If you are less aggressive an efficient mission to either of the moons can yield more science than any single probe mission in .22

Take the Tech 0 Minimus mission for example, it just couldn't be done without .23 changes.

wouldnt know on that. I gathered as much science as I could from a single capsule, Jebediah and a run around KSC lol.

Technically your not viewing it at all, your transmitting data about it. Think of it as a SCIENCE LOAN. Unless you can PERSONALLY witness and experiment on it, and PHYSICALLY REMOVE its items, the canister is TRANSMITTING DATA ABOUT IT FOREVER. In gameplay terms, when you transmit the data, you get science, but you can't rerun the canister as its still has the previous data and setups witch are being transmitted FOREVER.

technically, given kerbals can hurl these things into space, it would be conceivable that there is a camera in the materials bay and the goo canister to observe, so, again, my point stands.

If you cared about efficiency, then send more than 4 science parts in a single launch. It isn't hard to make "Expendable" canisters and Make your ship returnable(which alone gives EXTRA science).

Or make a better mission to utilize the Science lab. Or make a detachable mission, that has multiple probes and a mother ship/station to get more variety of science. Or use a kerbal instead of science parts, as they are the single most efficient Science gathering unit. That is as long as you bring them home!

I feel you just do not like how things have changes, which has put expendable probes out of business without kerbal support.

lets look at my probe again shall we?

at the top is a sensor package for atmospherics. thats 1. below that are 3 or so goo cans if memory serves, 1 materials bay, 6 gravioli, 6 thermometers, 6 seismic, 6 barometers. SO, on that 1 probe I had a TOTAL of 29 sensors on the thing. I would have to actually load KSP and go to where the thing is currently sitting in space, I think I left it on Bop... to get a more accurate count of its sensors, but, it was not a 1 or even 4 trick pony.

I also ran an experiment about 30 min ago <as of this post> to see just how much science is actually needed to unlock the tree with the mods I use, and its about 17k and change. I am open to suggestions on a 3-4 mission or so slam run to fill that tree in otherwise its save file editing

[The Destroyer]

Get decouplers and do a landing on Gilly, Ike, and Duna, and return with experiments.

Or, using the inital parts and explosive staging, go for a tour of jool and return.

[MKI]

lets look at my probe again shall we?

http://imageshack.com/a/img443/7782/4u04.png

at the top is a sensor package for atmospherics. thats 1. below that are 3 or so goo cans if memory serves, 1 materials bay, 6 gravioli, 6 thermometers, 6 seismic, 6 barometers. SO, on that 1 probe I had a TOTAL of 29 sensors on the thing. I would have to actually load KSP and go to where the thing is currently sitting in space, I think I left it on Bop... to get a more accurate count of its sensors, but, it was not a 1 or even 4 trick pony.

I also ran an experiment about 30 min ago <as of this post> to see just how much science is actually needed to unlock the tree with the mods I use, and its about 17k and change. I am open to suggestions on a 3-4 mission or so slam run to fill that tree in otherwise its save file editing

that's not efficient.

It may have been good enough for .22 science spam, but in .23 you ONLY need 1 of each. Besides the Goo and bigger materials lab. The temp, seismic, barometers and such are reusable and can get ALL the science from somewhere if you get it back.

Im not sure how you can say the probe is effecient? Without a kerbal to get surface reports, eva reports, ground eva reports, orbit reports, low orbit reports AND flying reports, your missing out on MASSIVE amounts of science. Again as long as you can get him back! (which you should if you want to call your mission efficient at any capacity.)

About the material lab having a camera.........

Have you read what they say about the Lights? You also get Probes after Manned craft. Do not question Kerbal Logic. Unmanned is to advance for Kerbals, they understand spaceflight better.

Edited March 26, 2014 by MKI

[AlamoVampire]

why are we even debating this? To me, having to cart up 2 kerbals + a lab + a probe with assorted experiments is not exactly the model of efficiency to me. it means I am burning MORE fuel than I would to just send a spam bot up or several spam bots for that matter. I honestly think, we wont see eye to eye on this. yes, in the TRUE spirit of efficiency, I am probably taking the longest and bumpiest path, but for me, and speaking ONLY for me, when I think of grinding, I cant stop from thinking of FFXI <those of you who played it know exactly what I mean when I say its a grind fest> and the tedium of grinding xp out. I want my xp as fast as I can get it in as short a time frame as possible, so for me: spam in a can is my path to ease the pain.

Edited March 26, 2014 by AlamoVampire

[MKI]

why are we even debating this? To me, having to cart up 2 kerbals + a lab + a probe with assorted experiments is not exactly the model of efficiency to me. it means I am burning MORE fuel than I would to just send a spam bot up or several spam bots for that matter.

I like debating

You don't need a lab if you bring enough expendable Goo and material labs, just have a kerbal get the science and put it into his command pod. With two goo or materials you can get 100% science in one mission.

I do have to admit it takes more fuel to do missions now, but the whole point was to keep people from maxing out the tech tree by sending a single probe out and science spam, it made kerbals, and anything more than nervas and solar panels pointless.

The lab and sending kerbals out instead of probes was to make the game more interesting, and more "grindy"(or challenging). As before it was a 3 mission difference from sandbox, send 3 missions out to get easy peasy science and you get max tech tree. Yea its extremely efficient, and extremely easy. Its also extremely boring and pointless.

[KerbMav]

Oi, you two! Get your own thread, ya off-topicers!

[Metalsand]

I like debating

You don't need a lab if you bring enough expendable Goo and material labs, just have a kerbal get the science and put it into his command pod. With two goo or materials you can get 100% science in one mission.

I do have to admit it takes more fuel to do missions now, but the whole point was to keep people from maxing out the tech tree by sending a single probe out and science spam, it made kerbals, and anything more than nervas and solar panels pointless.

The lab and sending kerbals out instead of probes was to make the game more interesting, and more "grindy"(or challenging). As before it was a 3 mission difference from sandbox, send 3 missions out to get easy peasy science and you get max tech tree. Yea its extremely efficient, and extremely easy. Its also extremely boring and pointless.

Completely agree. Sending probes with only science might be good for planets where bringing the probe back will be difficult without refueling stations such as Venus, but for places like the Mun there aren't really any excuses to not run manned missions. The Mun is ridiculously easy to land at, in fact it takes roughly the same velocity to (stably) orbit around Kerbin as it does to go straight to the Mun and orbit it.

Plus, you get 2-4 times more science depending on how many scientific instruments you have. Plus it's challenging which is fun in itself.

On an ON TOPIC note, this patch is going to be brilliant. I've estimated based on several googling runs that it might be available within a week, but no longer than 2-3 weeks. I hope it doesn't go over 2 weeks, it will start to run into finals week.

[FlexGunship]

Hi, can this be released now, please?

[CalculusWarrior]

Hi, can this be released now, please?

Be patient, it will probably be out sooner than you think.

[Bomoo]

I thought that Maxmaps or Yargnit mentioned on stream that they were planning on converting all of the current engines over to the new FX system that the R.A.P.I.E.R and NASA parts were using? I too would like the engine mount and engines to be modular (And allow for a centre mount ala Ares V.)

I must've missed that, but that would be good. However, even within the NASA parts there is inconsistency. The 3.75m thrusters have yellow/orange plumes and the 2.5m clusters have pale blue/purple plumes. I'm going to have to look into modding those, it seems...