Wait, new players start with Mechjeb??

[Scotius]

Must we clobber this poor, dead equine yet again?

If OP feels good for not using MJ at all - well, more power for him. But please, do not tell me i should feel guilty or inferior because i DO use MJ. I know what i am capable of doing in game, and what i consider boring, tedious or uninteresting - all the things i will attempt to alleviate with mods. It's my game, my time and my fun.

Now, could an admin kindly close this yet another pointless and repetitive thread?

[Poryy]

I don't consider myself a veteran, but I have done at least a thousand ascents, and a hundred interplanetary transfers. I don't want to wait for 15 minutes each time, so I wait for the window, make the node, and let MechJeb do the 15-minute long transfer burn.

[Biker Joe]

When I started playing KSP it was in sandbox mode and I got MechJeb so was using it for landings and stuff, but when career mode came out it didn't have the landing autopilot like it did in the sandbox mode so I did all my landings myself, I'm mining the Mun and Minmus for Science at the mo before I try and go to Duna so I'm doing about 5 landings a week manually now and I find it a lot better than when I used Mechjeb, and I've learned to be fairly accurate too!

[CaptainKipard]

A deja vu is usually a glitch in the matrix. It happens when they change something.

Anyway in this entire thread I've only seen two people talking about the topic started by OP.

MJ for beginners.

It would be interesting to read why newbies use it, but instead people just seem to repeat the same thing they always repeat whenever they see "MJ" in any topic regardless of what the topic is actually about.

[Kerbart]

A deja vu is usually a glitch in the matrix. It happens when they change something.

Anyway in this entire thread I've only seen two people talking about the topic started by OP. (...) but instead people just seem to repeat the same thing they always repeat whenever they see "MJ" in any topic regardless of what the topic is actually about.

I might be wrong, but probably because of this:

(...)I guess I don't get why some people would START with Mechjeb. Where's the fun in that? It seems to me KSP is about building things and testing stuff and generally learning the game for yourself. I'll never forget watching my rockets doing backflips when I first started. Now I have an entire fleet of rovers/landers/satellites etc. I get this game has a steep learning curve but why would I want an easy mode instant gratification autopilot that ruins the feeling of accomplishment? There's other games out there for that...(...)

This is not the first “people who don't explore the game the way I do cannot possibly enjoy it†thread about MJ. Hence the, almost canned, responses. As dedicated as some posters are to the Noble Art of Rocket Science, very little of them seem to be aware that The Ancient Art of Communication is not just for poets and politicians, but for anybody who wants to have a decent discussion. It’s the tone that makes the music, posting “how can you enjoy the game when you do not play it the way I play it†will consistently provoke the reaction that is displayed in this thread. Yes, every single time. See, the OP could have posted something like this:

There are many uses for MechJeb. For instance, to get an instant readout for flight parameters that are impossible, or cumbersome, to get elsewhere. Or to automate tasks that are perceived as boring and mindnumbing after performing them for the gazillionth time. For beginning players using MJ for automated tasks might be an obstacle in mastering certain aspects of the game. For players who insist doing everything manual that seems like heresy, but on the other hand it might stop players from quitting the game out of frustration.

Can Mechjeb help you understanding how to perform some of the harder maneuvers of the game? Or is it a matter of “I like to build something and see it fly, and could care less about being able to dock myself. At least for now?†If you started out KSP using MJ, did you end up learning how to do certain maneuvers through it? Or not? Does it matter?

Then it would have been a fair and balanced question that probably would get reactions from new players who use Mechjeb on how they use it, what their motivations are, and how it helps them to enjoy the game. Instead, the OP opted for writing an opinionated piece with “where's the fun in that.†With predictable results.

[Levelord]

A deja vu is usually a glitch in the matrix. It happens when they change something.

Anyway in this entire thread I've only seen two people talking about the topic started by OP.

MJ for beginners.

It would be interesting to read why newbies use it, but instead people just seem to repeat the same thing they always repeat whenever they see "MJ" in any topic regardless of what the topic is actually about.

I think the issue of newbies using MechJeb is no different from reading a tutorial or watching a Youtube video. It's still a case of monkey see, monkey do and once they see how someone (or an AI) does it, they repeat the same procedure as part of their learning. So I don't see why newbies should be getting flak for using MJ to learn, while people using Youtube videos aren't held to the same standard, in the end of the day you are still watching someone else fly a ship to figure out how it's done for yourselves.

What I think the OP believes (or implies) is that newbies develop a reliance on MJ when they are exposed to it, which is untrue. Eventually, every new player would want to try their hand at flying a rocket manually once they've seen the AI fly it, and will try to mimic the maneuvers to understand why the AI does certain maneuvers. I have yet to meet a newbie who has developed a dependance on MJ to play the game for them because all of them eventually learn from the program how to fly the crafts themselves.

[Javster]

MechJeb can teach you how to do things: for example, I used to go straight up until I was in space, then went sideways into orbit. By using MechJeb, I've been able to see how to do a gravity turn.

[Twreed87]

Just chiming in, but I use MechJeb for boring, routine things that I just don't feel like going through the motions for. If I've got something I wanna test out in orbit, and I'm not worried about the launch, i'll auto-launch while I got make myself a sandwich, then come back and do the thing I wanna do.

Plus there's all the information and data you can get from it, some of which I think should actually be stock. Knowing your vehicle weight, TWR, even deltaV, makes learning a lot easier.

[Sirrobert]

I think the issue of newbies using MechJeb is no different from reading a tutorial or watching a Youtube video. It's still a case of monkey see, monkey do and once they see how someone (or an AI) does it, they repeat the same procedure as part of their learning. So I don't see why newbies should be getting flak for using MJ to learn, while people using Youtube videos aren't held to the same standard, in the end of the day you are still watching someone else fly a ship to figure out how it's done for yourselves.

What I think the OP believes (or implies) is that newbies develop a reliance on MJ when they are exposed to it, which is untrue. Eventually, every new player would want to try their hand at flying a rocket manually once they've seen the AI fly it, and will try to mimic the maneuvers to understand why the AI does certain maneuvers. I have yet to meet a newbie who has developed a dependance on MJ to play the game for them because all of them eventually learn from the program how to fly the crafts themselves.

If anything, I think Mechjeb is a better teacher than Youtube.

Sure you get a person telling you why he does something on Youtube, but in Mechjeb you get to watch the tuturial in real time, on your own rocket

[Hodo]

Oh 900 hours ago when I started KSP, I started with FAR and DRE. Then I discovered KER and B9.

And I am JUST now getting around to using Mechjeb, and I don't use the autopilot for anything unless I am launching communications satellites for Remote Tech 2.

[Javster]

If anything, I think Mechjeb is a better teacher than Youtube.

Sure you get a person telling you why he does something on Youtube, but in Mechjeb you get to watch the tuturial in real time, on your own rocket

And then you have a more realistic view on dV and the range of your rockets.

[PDCWolf]

I fail to read the part where he said he was superior for not using mechjeb, I also can't find the part where he said everybody should play his way or anything. No need to be so reactive to mechjeb posts, the guy was just posting his opinion and asking some questions, no need to get all "stop telling me how to play" on him.

Personally, and I said this a billion times and I will keep saying it, don't use mechjeb until you've done everything there's to do. Use it as a tool, not as a crutch. Obviously I have no power to go to your computer and watch over you to make sure you follow my word, so yeah, do what you want.

[Sirrobert]

I fail to read the part where he said he was superior for not using mechjeb, I also can't find the part where he said everybody should play his way or anything. No need to be so reactive to mechjeb posts, the guy was just posting his opinion and asking some questions, no need to get all "stop telling me how to play" on him.

Personally, and I said this a billion times and I will keep saying it, don't use mechjeb until you've done everything there's to do. Use it as a tool, not as a crutch. Obviously I have no power to go to your computer and watch over you to make sure you follow my word, so yeah, do what you want.

That's the feel I get, and aperently quite alot of people.

There's no reason to open your post with 'I've got almost 200 hours into KSP', unles you want to make a point about those 200 hours.

And the only point that could possibly make, is that he has more experience/knowledge/hours/whatever than someone who just started the game (which is the topic of this... topic).

And me personally, I'll just keep saying that new players should instal Mechjeb, as it's an amazing learning tool.

It's basicly impossible to guess if your rocket has enough juice to get to the Mun and back without any deltaV readouts if you are new.

And YES use it as a crutch. If you're new, you can't walk yet. You need some help to get you on your feet and walking. Either that's an older person who can walk (youtube tuturials), or a crutch (mechjeb). Than, once you no longer need the crutch, you stop relying on it. Just as much as you stop watching tuturials once you know how to fly yourself.

Except that the crutch is always there to help you when you need it. While the older guy is doing his own things, and you'll need to look for him, and ask for help again, if you run into something you can't do (such as transfering to a new planet).

Or you just keep falling on your nose until you learn how to ballance yourself. Most people don't have the time, or the patience for that. If you keep falling over while trying to learn a bike, eventually you'll get frustrated and stop trying. Let the bike rust away in the shed. You need some help to get you started

[John FX]

I find it really doesn`t matter. I`ve landed everywhere by hand but I hadn`t when I started using mechjeb. Sometimes I get fun from watching MJ land a craft, sometimes I get fun from doing it myself. Sometimes my fun is in designing, sometimes in flying.

If something is a pain to do, boring, or time consuming then I get MJ to do it. Sometimes I launch while checking the forum.

That`s my main use for MJ if I`m honest.

To give me time to check the forum.

[lammatt]

mechjeb auto piloting and auto maneuver node are very bad, it's only good at the initial ascend.

which is not even hard.

not many people are using it to autopilot anyways.

it's for the readouts. (yes the calculations or guesstimations arent even hard anyways, but why guessing and calculating when you can have the computer do it.)

[BadRocketsCo.]

Oehhh...the neverending fight. Some people like to use it, some people don't. The end

[Holo]

What I don't get is how some people seem to want this fight to happen. In the first page, there are already posts complaining about how this person is telling other people how to play despite the fact that he's saying nothing of the sort. It makes me wonder whether they even read the post, or just responded to the title.

[FREEFALL1984]

I won't pretend to be able to TELL people how to play the game, but I can share my opinion on the subject. Mechjeb is a brilliant and powerful tool, for me it does however take self control. By self control I mean for me I must limit myself to certain features on principle. I only use Smart A.S.S, the execute button on the maneuver planner (I don't allow mechjeb to actually create nodes unless its simply something basic which I've done a million and one times such as circularizing my LKO after launch) I refuse to allow MJ to perform takeoffs and landings although I will use the surface information. I will not allow it to perform rendezvous or docking. These aspects of the game are all slightly more enjoyable to me if I perform them myself.

That's not to say that "this is the right way" to use mechjeb, for some people the fun of KSP is in designing and building a ship or spacestation without the "hassle" of building it in orbit or actually getting in into space themselves, for others the fun is in coming up with the most efficient method of getting from A to B on their own without anything but the maneuver nodes (or in some cases without even using those)

What you should consider when using MJ is; is it the right thing for you. is it effecting your enjoyment of the game?

Also when I first started using MJ (after about 100 hours) I discovered that it taught me a lot more than many people give it credit for. For instance, I only downloaded MJ after having some real difficulties performing a rendezvous (occasionally resulting in me spending half a real time hour orbiting Kerbin 100m below my target. I told it to set up the node and then it just clicked and I knew what I was doing wrong, now I simply set myself a maneuver node to intercept the target orbit and then move the node around my trajectory until I get a <100m intercept, as soon as I intercept the target I just circularize the orbit like I normally would, hey presto easy rendezvous. Without MJ I would likely still be spinning around kerbin getting increasingly frustrated. So as a learning tool, its unparalleled, but that being said, I advise new players to try (just try) to start the game without it, at least until you get the majority of the basics down. After all nobody likes to see Jeb take the sidelines on every launch

[Red Iron Crown]

Wait, new players start with SAS??

I've got almost 200 hours into KSP and I'm just now considering SAS because I'm at the point where I can come in for a landing hot and sideways with one hand on my keyboard and the other drinking a cup of coffee. I can screw it all up but still recover, slam on the brakes and land softly at 1m/s all while in IVA because I like the immersion. I'm at the point where I feel like I've earned the right to sit back and let my "autopilot" keep the ship flying straight now that I've done it a hundred times and could probably do in my sleep.

I guess I don't get why some people would START with SAS. Where's the fun in that? It seems to me KSP is about building things and testing stuff and generally learning the game for yourself. I'll never forget watching my rockets doing backflips when I first started. Now I have an entire fleet of rovers/landers/satellites etc. I get this game has a steep learning curve but why would I want an easy mode instant gratification autopilot that ruins the feeling of accomplishment? There's other games out there for that...

Thoughts?

[AlamoVampire]

Wait, new players start with SAS??

I've got almost 200 hours into KSP and I'm just now considering SAS because I'm at the point where I can come in for a landing hot and sideways with one hand on my keyboard and the other drinking a cup of coffee. I can screw it all up but still recover, slam on the brakes and land softly at 1m/s all while in IVA because I like the immersion. I'm at the point where I feel like I've earned the right to sit back and let my "autopilot" keep the ship flying straight now that I've done it a hundred times and could probably do in my sleep.

I guess I don't get why some people would START with SAS. Where's the fun in that? It seems to me KSP is about building things and testing stuff and generally learning the game for yourself. I'll never forget watching my rockets doing backflips when I first started. Now I have an entire fleet of rovers/landers/satellites etc. I get this game has a steep learning curve but why would I want an easy mode instant gratification autopilot that ruins the feeling of accomplishment? There's other games out there for that...

Thoughts?

Well first thought is: this post im quoting is almost word for word that of the op which seems questionable to me. 2nd is to each his or her own on how to play.

Third autopilot namely mechjeb is NOT automatic easy mode.

[regex]

Thoughts?

This thread is filled with terrible. Everybody justifying their MechJeb usage to the troll, it's just bad.

[Red Iron Crown]

Well first thought is: this post im quoting is almost word for word that of the op which seems questionable to me. 2nd is to each his or her own on how to play.

Third autopilot namely mechjeb is NOT automatic easy mode.

Forgot the sarcasm tags, sorry. I was poking fun at the OP, all his objections to MJ could just as easily apply to SAS.

I fully agree with you, play the way that you enjoy and don't worry if someone doesn't like it.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Red Iron Crown
Left out one critical word.

[Holo]

This thread is filled with terrible. Everybody justifying their MechJeb usage to the troll, it's just bad.

Oh boy, this really is going downhill. The OP seemed to read "I think Mechjeb usage is wrong, CMV", which is quite far from trolling.

Forgot the sarcasm tags, sorry. I was poking fun at the OP, all his objections to MJ could just as easily apply to SAS

SAS is much weaker automation than OP's limit for what they can understand new players using. Observe the diagram:

In other words, holding the same direction and flying to orbit for you are two entirely different things.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Holo

[regex]

Oh boy, this really is going downhill.

It was going downhill from the first post.

[Holo]

It was going downhill from the first post.

I feel it was about three posts in, when someone equated asking a question to deciding how someone should do something.