[WIP] Universal Storage

[dreadicon]

As always, amazing work! I love Universal Storage, and generally use it whenever practical. The tweakscale is a seriously awesome addition, and will mean even more opportunity to use it! Also, thank you very much for the Methane option. I was rolling my own MM files in the mean time, but this is great having them in the official mod! The new model reworks are cool too!

I did have more than a couple requests/ideas.....

-How about a comms wedge for Remote Tech? I'm guessing one could just use the stock folding antenna and slap it in the empty bay in blender or such, but despite my know-how of C# and MM, I fall squarely on my face when it comes to 3D programs any more advanced than Sketchup >_> Either way, just an idea

-Would it be possible to make the parts slightly lighter without the exterior covering, but increase their drag? (FAR and stock both have the ability to manually increase the drag of parts from configs iirc; was just curious if this would be non-trivial)

-There's still no battery module, which seems odd. I know fuel cell/electrolysis is more efficient in terms of electric charge per-ton, but fuel cells are capped in how fast they can convert the energy. Having a pool for spikes in usage would be very convenient.

-Have you considered making a service module part? It would contain RCS thusters and an RCS tank (and possibly other parts). What would be even cooler is a variant that uses bipropellant, is the same weight, and contains no tanks, but has higher thrust and isp.

-Is there a reason Oxygen and Oxidiser are separated? Specifically when it comes to something like RealFuels LiquidOxygen resource. Is rocket grade LOx not suitable for human(kerbal) consumption for some reason? I just ask because the oxygen tanks use LOx for density of the tank, but essentially contain GOx. I'm just curious why these are separated is all.

-Would it be possible to use the water filter while in an aqueous ocean (such as Laythe's) to refill the water tanks?

-Have you considered making a Bosch reaction wedge to reclaim the hydrogen from the methane made by the Sabatier reaction?

-Would you consider making core parts that are 2 or 3 nodes tall? It'd be a minor reduction in part count, but every little bit can help! EDIT: just realised this is less necessary with the addition of tweakscale, but with addons, I could definitely still see a good use for it! (Like the DMagic Orbital Science wedges, KAS wedges, etc; I can easily need over 16 separate nodes!)

-How about a Solar Panel Array wedge?

-And finally, a really cool feature would be IVAs for the octo/hex cores, with a display for each part attached to the nodes. You could use the technique FusTek Karmony uses for IVAs, where the kerbals are 'seated' in invisible seats, and clicking on the hatch to either side could move them to the next habitable module it's connected to. What's more, you could potentially manage them as if you were using the external ship view, and/or add options like collecting experiments, but from IVA! Bit of an undertaking, just thought I'd throw it out there though.

Sorry if I've bombarded you with stuff; I totally understand if none of them appeal to you or you just don't have time! I always appreciate anything and everything you make! Keep up the good work!

Edited October 8, 2014 by dreadicon

[Daishi]

Is that a new decoupler I see under the capsule? Nice looking logo on the Sabatier.

Yup - its the ACD. Still not totally happy with it but i'm getting there slowly.

extremely nice.

Thanks!

As always, amazing work! I love Universal Storage, and generally use it whenever practical. The tweakscale is a seriously awesome addition, and will mean even more opportunity to use it! Also, thank you very much for the Methane option. I was rolling my own MM files in the mean time, but this is great having them in the official mod! The new model reworks are cool too!

I did have more than a couple requests/ideas.....

-How about a comms wedge for Remote Tech? I'm guessing one could just use the stock folding antenna and slap it in the empty bay in blender or such, but despite my know-how of C# and MM, I fall squarely on my face when it comes to 3D programs any more advanced than Sketchup >_> Either way, just an idea

-Would it be possible to make the parts slightly lighter without the exterior covering, but increase their drag? (FAR and stock both have the ability to manually increase the drag of parts from configs iirc; was just curious if this would be non-trivial)

-There's still no battery module, which seems odd. I know fuel cell/electrolysis is more efficient in terms of electric charge per-ton, but fuel cells are capped in how fast they can convert the energy. Having a pool for spikes in usage would be very convenient.

-Have you considered making a service module part? It would contain RCS thusters and an RCS tank (and possibly other parts). What would be even cooler is a variant that uses bipropellant, is the same weight, and contains no tanks, but has higher thrust and isp.

-Is there a reason Oxygen and Oxidiser are separated? Specifically when it comes to something like RealFuels LiquidOxygen resource. Is rocket grade LOx not suitable for human(kerbal) consumption for some reason? I just ask because the oxygen tanks use LOx for density of the tank, but essentially contain GOx. I'm just curious why these are separated is all.

-Would it be possible to use the water filter while in an aqueous ocean (such as Laythe's) to refill the water tanks?

-Have you considered making a Bosch reaction wedge to reclaim the hydrogen from the methane made by the Sabatier reaction?

-Would you consider making core parts that are 2 or 3 nodes tall? It'd be a minor reduction in part count, but every little bit can help! EDIT: just realised this is less necessary with the addition of tweakscale, but with addons, I could definitely still see a good use for it! (Like the DMagic Orbital Science wedges, KAS wedges, etc; I can easily need over 16 separate nodes!)

-How about a Solar Panel Array wedge?

-And finally, a really cool feature would be IVAs for the octo/hex cores, with a display for each part attached to the nodes. You could use the technique FusTek Karmony uses for IVAs, where the kerbals are 'seated' in invisible seats, and clicking on the hatch to either side could move them to the next habitable module it's connected to. What's more, you could potentially manage them as if you were using the external ship view, and/or add options like collecting experiments, but from IVA! Bit of an undertaking, just thought I'd throw it out there though.

Sorry if I've bombarded you with stuff; I totally understand if none of them appeal to you or you just don't have time! I always appreciate anything and everything you make! Keep up the good work!

...that's a big list. I don't have as much time as i used to, so i'd rather polish what i have rather than overstretch myself with new parts not on my roadmap. Batteries are a dime a dozen in the stock game (as well as in Near Future Electrics), solar panels would require a ton of work to sort out in Unity, and integrated retractable engines are a little out of scope. US was designed as a life support part pack and we don't really want to overstretch the mark by covering every part under the sun.

I've got a to-do list pinned to my wall and its daunting enough, i'd rather not add to it at this stage.

Edit - missed some points.

* The parts pretty much exist as multiple pieces in one file with one collision mesh to save CPU\physics strain - i'd have to separate everything to distinguish them for FAR to penalize. It'd be a big job and i'd rather not undo the optimizations i've done so far. The concept of US with wedges is already hard enough on physics.

* Would you really like another thing to keep track of? Its up to Paul to make that call with the Bosch reactor. I think you're the first person who's mentioned it.

* The oxygen thing has crossed my mind too - but i'd rather have separate tanks than accidentally draining my breathing gas when firing up an engine.

* Dmagic is thinking of making an aerial which could be configured for RT.

* The water thing might be better off with a dedicated "scoop" part first - i'm sure there are mods out there already that let you suck up water from oceans to use in your tanks. Then sure, feed it into the WRS and it should work (as long as the oceans are defined as "wastewater" of course).

* I'd rather make larger wedges than larger cores - but Tweakscale takes care of that issue well enough now.

* IVA's are hard I wouldn't know where to start, they'd take ages to model, and i haven't got a clue how you'd interface with the bays from the inside. More plugins? More dependencies? More things to break when KSP updates? :|

Edited October 10, 2014 by Daishi

[Paul Kingtiger]

Here are my thoughts on a few of the questions.

Bosh reactors aren't quite ready yet, there's a few problems to solve before it is reliably useable in space. More of a near future technology where as I try to go for current and historical.

Also we'd have 2 wedges that essentially do the same thing (recycle CO2). I also love the fact that every output of the Sabatier is useable.

For the Oxygen tanks, they are modelled after the Apollo CSM tanks, which stored LOX, but could only output gas O2. The system worked by using a heater to cause some of the LOX to vaporize, which was then piped off to where it was needed. As the tank emptied higher temperatures were required to maintain working pressure. The only time you got LOX out of the tank was when you were defueling after a test on the pad (the normal defueling process failed on an Apollo 13 test resulting in a alternative procedure which caused the damage leading to the famous explosion on mission).

The Apollo SPS used hypergolic fuel to maximize reliability so the O2 was only ever for the fuel cell and life support.

Anyway that's why the US O2 tanks contain gas O2 but lots of it, because it's cryogenically stored.

[CaptainKipard]

Is that decoupler mechanical/animated or does it use ejection force?

[Alewx]

I would love if it would be a decoupler with ejection force with animation that can be used for staging.

[Railgunner2160]

IIRC The alternative they used was actually quite safe, So long as the tank was in good working order. It normally took a few days to empty, However the 65volt current fused the thermostat into it's ON position. The contents boiled of in a few hours instead of days and the extreme heat melted the insulation on the tanks wiring. When they refilled it it was a bomb waiting to go off, damaged insulation like that also destroyed TWA Flight 800.

[Daishi]

Is that decoupler mechanical/animated or does it use ejection force?

I would love if it would be a decoupler with ejection force with animation that can be used for staging.

At the moment it uses the basic decoupler module, the whole model is static and nothing moves (I plan to have spinning reaction wheels housed inside it). If firespitter lets me assign an animation to a part when its staged or activated, i'll have a go making collision meshes for the push-plates and make them pop up and shunt the stage away too when the explosive bolts fire.

Edit: Buuut.. it probably wouldn't even be noticed under the ejected part, so I dunno. Should I bother?

Edited October 11, 2014 by Daishi

[Alewx]

At the moment it uses the basic decoupler module, the whole model is static and nothing moves (I plan to have spinning reaction wheels housed inside it). If firespitter lets me assign an animation to a part when its staged or activated, i'll have a go making collision meshes for the push-plates and make them pop up and shunt the stage away too when the explosive bolts fire.

Edit: Buuut.. it probably wouldn't even be noticed under the ejected part, so I dunno. Should I bother?

Your work is of great quality, and we will notice the animation.

[Paul Kingtiger]

IIRC The alternative they used was actually quite safe, So long as the tank was in good working order. It normally took a few days to empty, However the 65volt current fused the thermostat into it's ON position. The contents boiled of in a few hours instead of days and the extreme heat melted the insulation on the tanks wiring. When they refilled it it was a bomb waiting to go off, damaged insulation like that also destroyed TWA Flight 800.

I read that the original spec. for the thermostat was 25v then they changed it to 65v and didn't tell the thermostat subcontractor.

[NoMrBond]

...that's a big list. I don't have as much time as i used to, so i'd rather polish what i have rather than overstretch myself with new parts not on my roadmap. Batteries are a dime a dozen in the stock game (as well as in Near Future Electrics), solar panels would require a ton of work to sort out in Unity, and integrated retractable engines are a little out of scope. US was designed as a life support part pack and we don't really want to overstretch the mark by covering every part under the sun.

How about supplying a blank frame, no texture or internal anything, just a blank outline/skeleton/shadow of a wedge as a .blend/.fbx/.3ds/et al? Maybe including the transforms necessary for their attachment (if that's done using empties for the NODE{} system at the model level anyway)

That way other modders could take it and build any out-of-scope stuff to fit inside this outline knowing that by following that framework it would fit exactly with/within the 'wedge' profile?

[Paul Kingtiger]

That way other modders could take it and build any out-of-scope stuff to fit inside this outline knowing that by following that framework it would fit exactly with/within the 'wedge' profile?

Dmagic Orbital Science already does this by referencing the Science wedge with the MODEL command.

[CaptainKipard]

At the moment it uses the basic decoupler module, the whole model is static and nothing moves (I plan to have spinning reaction wheels housed inside it). If firespitter lets me assign an animation to a part when its staged or activated, i'll have a go making collision meshes for the push-plates and make them pop up and shunt the stage away too when the explosive bolts fire.

Edit: Buuut.. it probably wouldn't even be noticed under the ejected part, so I dunno. Should I bother?

This is just a fancy. I'm sure most people wont care. It could be something to do once all the important stuff is done if you like.

[Daishi]

Coolcool, will at least set up the meshes first so they can animate down the track.

Brainwave!

I'm currently thinking of making three variants of the external wedge structure (stock black, white, and grey metal plating) as well as one variant for the door (metal plating). This will be embedded in each model file and called with Firespitter when you swap things around in the VAB. This is cool, and will use less resources than before, but will be fiddly for a large stack of cores full of wedges if you want to customize everything. I'll also have to remake every parts hierarchy in Unity and re-export everything, which will take some time.

I'm also thinking of making adaptors that also have texture variants to match these options, as they interface with the scalloping and let the doors show through. They'll also take ages to make, as they're adjustable for stacks up to 4 cores high, and will need every texture variant to stack perfectly for every gap in the scalloping.

So... would it make sense to only have the external corrugation on the adaptors, with each wedge sporting a bare structure until its attached within it?

The wedges will keep their own service hatches because they feature info about the parts, but doing it this way means that there is really only two things to tweak and the micromanagement of the part customization disappears. You'll only tweak the single adaptor based on the height of the stack, and what you want the corrugation to look like (white, metal, or black). The doors have one option to switch from white to bare metal, and one to turn off the entire door and structure properly (as usual).

I could also do the extreme, and separate every part from its wedge housing, and delegate the adaptors to be the only structural covering there is. Per-wedge tweakables disappear, and options are available only if you choose to cap your cores with the tweakable adaptors.

Only problem is, with any adaptor that has its own external corrugation, double door wedges will clip into them unless i make some special allowance for them. Not sure how to go about that.

[CaptainKipard]

I like the smoother cross section that comes with the corrugated parts on the stack.

I can't comment on the rest, because I haven't played KSP in a while and don't know what you're talking about.

[Paul Kingtiger]

How would it effect adding and removing wedges via KAS and EVA?

[Bomoo]

That looks brilliant, Daishi.

[Nertea]

It's so beautiful! You make me jealous something awful, Daishi!

[Daishi]

I like the smoother cross section that comes with the corrugated parts on the stack.

I can't comment on the rest, because I haven't played KSP in a while and don't know what you're talking about.

I'll do a sketch sometime, if it will help make sense of it

How would it effect adding and removing wedges via KAS and EVA?

If we ditch the structure altogether and have the adaptors act as the housing, nothing will change. The parts will still be attached to the cores and will still snap back into the KAS bay node things. Its really just offloading the visual structure to a single part rather than having every wedge excessively tweakable. If you choose not to cap your cores with these adaptors, they'll be bare machinery, or you could cap them anyway and just turn the corrugation height to 0.

That looks brilliant, Daishi.

Thanks, but its only a concept though! Want to run by ther idea by you guys before I press on and start making big changes.

It's so beautiful! You make me jealous something awful, Daishi!

Serious?! I'm flattered, thankyou so much!

Edited October 14, 2014 by Daishi

[Nertea]

Yeah most serious. You have an attention to detail and layout (and the patience to unwrap all these tiny parts, it seems) that quite surpasses mine, IMO.

[zengei]

That looks brilliant, Daishi.

Yeah, great idea.

[dreadicon]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to look over my thoughts/feedback and reply to them (a couple pages back). All perfectly reasonable points

Interesting about the oxygen tanks; I had suspected it may be something similar to that. Does that mean the tank can't be refilled if they only output oxygen gas? Or does it have a reconstitution unit to turn the oxygen gas into it's liquid cryogenic form? Perhaps I should make a config for a converter unit that fills oxygen gas tanks and vice verse...

I love the concept of the adapters also being the housing, especially if you made them into fairings mechanically to where the sides would extend as far up as the core hubs go and additionally cause the parts to not even be counted for purposes of aerodynamics. But that's again probably a little over-ambitious and/or difficult, lol.

Love the progress, you guys are awesome!

[Angelo Kerman]

The quality of your work continues to amaze me. Well done! Here's a picture of a new space station core module I built that uses Universal Storage. I decided that it would look cool without the metal sidings:

[Paul Kingtiger]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to look over my thoughts/feedback and reply to them (a couple pages back). All perfectly reasonable points

Interesting about the oxygen tanks; I had suspected it may be something similar to that. Does that mean the tank can't be refilled if they only output oxygen gas? Or does it have a reconstitution unit to turn the oxygen gas into it's liquid cryogenic form? Perhaps I should make a config for a converter unit that fills oxygen gas tanks and vice verse...

I love the concept of the adapters also being the housing, especially if you made them into fairings mechanically to where the sides would extend as far up as the core hubs go and additionally cause the parts to not even be counted for purposes of aerodynamics. But that's again probably a little over-ambitious and/or difficult, lol.

Love the progress, you guys are awesome!

The processors include compressors to liquify the outputs. This has a major effect on the power requirements.

For pumping from tank to take you can do it, I guess it somehow does it as a liquid? Which does contradict what I said in the other post.

Problem is, as things stand you can't simulate having multiple resources coming out of a tank without having a processor in every tank and that's way too complex.

[Angelo Kerman]

I forgot to ask: Is there a wedge for a TAC-LS air purifier, like there is one for water?

[Paul Kingtiger]

I forgot to ask: Is there a wedge for a TAC-LS air purifier, like there is one for water?

You'll need the sabatier the turn Carbon Dioxide into Liquid fuel and Water, then the Elektron to turn water into Oxygen and Hydrogen.