Science in Sandbox Mode

[Seret]

The messages really are the main reason to play career at this point in time.

Er, I can honestly not remember the last time I read one.

[Kasuha]

I don't see any reason for science and science archives to not be available in sandbox mode, it can add a lot to sandbox play. Especially archives, they're kind of an achievements list.

I don't even think we need an option to turn it on/off, it's all up to the player if he wants or does not want to make measurements.

[Hyomoto]

Wow, what stereotypical sandbox attitudes. "I want to play Career, but I don't want to unlock anything!" The point of science is to unlock parts. Do you want to do it just so you can get a message that says it has been done? Just follow the ideas other people have proposed, cheat. Unlock everything in career mode and then you can have your cake and eat it too. All your science will be meaningless, but at least now you can pretend like you are doing it for a reason. The only real thing that bothers me is I suppose you'll want contracts in sandbox as well. "We don't need money, and we don't need science, but we should still be allowed to do contracts and science." Oh, wait, it seems some of you already have.

To be honest, I don't care if all this stuff gets added into sandbox. You might be surprised but I don't. I do, however, hate your attitude towards the game. You represent the most selfish, self-absorbed players there are, unanimously, across ALL games that offer such a mode. "A mode for people who want progression? I should get that too, except it should be how I want it, and it shouldn't affect me unless I want it to. Also I should always win." The point of sandbox is that you don't have to do anything, you can just build and do whatever missions you want. You COULD just play career for a few hours, and one day you'd be in the EXACT SAME PLACE as sandbox, but I guess it would be too much to ask that you step outside your comfort zone and play the game.

[Tex]

Dat speech tho.

I agree. I'm currently working on my sandbox, and I do realize, as a player, that I don't even have to leave the Kerbin system before I complete the tech tree! That is awesome, because then I have my parts, and can get the pointless Science as a trophy.

It's just like I said on another thread: Science is just a measurement of accomplishment in the Career game mode. It serves no other purpose after the parts are all unlocked.

[Kasuha]

Wow, what stereotypical sandbox attitudes. "I want to play Career, but I don't want to unlock anything!" The point of science is to unlock parts.

I think you don't understand.

It's not "I want to play Career but I don't want to unlock anything".

It is "I want to explore, but I don't want to be restricted by career". Making science measurements is yet another way of exploring, apart of the warm feeling of "I was there" and planting a flag.

Yes, science system was designed to be used to unlock parts. But let's ask a question: will anything bad happen if it is possible to make measurements and collect science points in sandbox?

I don't think so. Career mode will not become less fun due to that. Those who want to build their career in the game will not lose anything.

And in sandbox it will actually provide more ways of having fun.

[Dodgey]

Wow, what stereotypical sandbox attitudes. "I want to play Career, but I don't want to unlock anything!" The point of science is to unlock parts. Do you want to do it just so you can get a message that says it has been done? Just follow the ideas other people have proposed, cheat. Unlock everything in career mode and then you can have your cake and eat it too. All your science will be meaningless, but at least now you can pretend like you are doing it for a reason. The only real thing that bothers me is I suppose you'll want contracts in sandbox as well. "We don't need money, and we don't need science, but we should still be allowed to do contracts and science." Oh, wait, it seems some of you already have.

To be honest, I don't care if all this stuff gets added into sandbox. You might be surprised but I don't. I do, however, hate your attitude towards the game. You represent the most selfish, self-absorbed players there are, unanimously, across ALL games that offer such a mode. "A mode for people who want progression? I should get that too, except it should be how I want it, and it shouldn't affect me unless I want it to. Also I should always win." The point of sandbox is that you don't have to do anything, you can just build and do whatever missions you want. You COULD just play career for a few hours, and one day you'd be in the EXACT SAME PLACE as sandbox, but I guess it would be too much to ask that you step outside your comfort zone and play the game.

Wow, what stereotypical career attitude. "I want to play Career, but I don't want anyone to play any other way apart from how I play!" See, I can be condescending as well, want to hear it again? You represent the most, selfish, self-absorbed players there are, unanimously, across ALL games that offer a medium for delivering feed back. "People can make suggestions? I should do that to, except only my opinions matter, and if someone suggests something that affects that gamemode that I don't use than I should get really annoyed." The point of sandbox is not to be restricted, by the tech tree, economics ect. Yea at the moment we could play sandbox for a couple of hours or cheat and unlock the tech tree by editing the save file, but that is only viable while we don't have economics, however they might be implemented.

If all you are going to do is be condescending without anything productive to say, why comment, all you are going to do is entice an emotional response.

[Nemrav]

Wow, what stereotypical career attitude. "I want to play Career, but I don't want anyone to play any other way apart from how I play!"

-snip-

you are ironically making a post which is defeating the purpose of itself.

however both you and the guy that you quoted are right... but the thing is, in forums we don't use big long speaches and the longer it is, the more likely people will look over it....

[Hyomoto]

I think that means I understand it entirely. What I think you may be missing is these things are the point of career mode. They are in the game so that career mode can exist, they not only justify the mode, they define it. What you want, is a career mode where you can cheat. Apparently though, being above such things, you instead want the cheat to be installed and sanctioned by the developers.

Once again, I admit I do not care if these things are added to sandbox mode. What bothers me is the sandbox players who come up with justifications and ideas like, "Just let me turn off the parts of the game I don't like.", "It doesn't affect your game.", and "I should be able to do whatever I want, have whatever I want and you should not." You are right in one sense, I cannot provide an argument for why these things shouldn't also exist in sandbox modeâ€â€because the argument is fully one-sided. You want career players to bend over backwards and make sure you get everything you want, but you have absolutely no concern or concessions to make for them. Never have I heard a sandbox player say, "I think that's cool, but it should be part of career mode." Instead you hear, "I don't want that, it better be part of career or at least give me the option to turn it off."

But I think science should be added to sandbox modeâ€â€in the same sense recovery is, as a token gesture. You should be allowed to do it, but it should only have as much meaning as you assign it. Because you are in the sandbox playing with toys, part of that is making up your own rules. Career players should get points for doing science because it's an aspect of playing career mode.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Hyomoto

[Dodgey]

you are ironically making a post which is defeating the purpose of itself.

however both you and the guy that you quoted are right... but the thing is, in forums we don't use big long speaches and the longer it is, the more likely people will look over it....

That was the point of the post, to show that the argument was able to be turned on it's head, should I have done it, most likely not, ad hominen attacks have a tendency to get me worked up.

Hyomoto, you are right, you can't provide an argument against it, not because it is one sided, but because there isn't an argument against it.

"I should be able to do whatever I want, have whatever I want and you should not."

I'm sorry? "you should not"? Where is anyone saying "I should be able to do this specific thing and you should not"? If all you are going to do is bring up strawman arguments I'm afraid we are done.

I hope I haven't created enough of a fire to warrant the closure of this thread.

[Kasuha]

What I think you may be missing is these things are the point of career mode. They are in the game so that career mode can exist, they not only justify the mode, they define it.

I believe Career mode is defined as game mode where you start with limited resources and expand using various tools through acquiring larger resources and partial goals until you reach the ultimate goal at which point the career is considered complete. After that the game may offer you to continue but stops providing any higher level goals.

Science in KSP is not the point of career mode. It is a tool you use to progress in career. And it's even one of tools, it just happened to be implemented first.

[vger]

I don't see any reason why science gathering shouldn't be allowed in Sandbox mode, even if it isn't needed to advance in the tech tree.

[Technical Ben]

Science is not the point of career mode. Progression is. "Points" in science is only applicable to the Career. But all other features of the science parts and systems can be used in sandbox. It's only points that are specific to career in function and use. So why not add everything else to sandbox? (I would assume it's to prevent "cheating" for biome locations. But these are both easily searched online/through a wiki or could be randomised in sandbox only and kept default for career so no overlap/cheating).

[TinfoilChef]

You want career players to bend over backwards and make sure you get everything you want, but you have absolutely no concern or concessions to make for them.

Actually, I doubt that the OP is asking for players, career or sandbox to do or give anything. He's asking devs for an alteration to sandbox mode that, as I see it, will have no effect on career players and will add options to sandbox play style

[Technical Ben]

Once you max science (the tech tree), career mode currently becomes "sandbox" too. Things might change later with coasts though.

[aeTIos]

I totally agree with OP. I don't need the tech tree in Sandbox. I do, however, want those messages just for the heck of it. It's just annoying to get this pesky message saying "There isn't much point to do this" because sandbox mode is really often role-played. And with role-play, everything you do has a purpose. And if the devs will add the messages to sandbox, I'll give them a cookie and be very content.

[Javster]

I totally agree with OP. I don't need the tech tree in Sandbox. I do, however, want those messages just for the heck of it. It's just annoying to get this pesky message saying "There isn't much point to do this" because sandbox mode is really often role-played. And with role-play, everything you do has a purpose. And if the devs will add the messages to sandbox, I'll give them a cookie and be very content.

eg. some people don't just dump their nuclear engines, they return them to Kerbin undamaged. There is no reason to do this yet, but RPers imagine the radiation.

[Kruleworld]

I don't see any reason why science gathering shouldn't be allowed in Sandbox mode, .

I'd like it there so there's something to do while your Kerbal is walking around on the surface of another world. why not take a surface sample? :-)

[Seret]

eg. some people don't just dump their nuclear engines, they return them to Kerbin undamaged.

I think doing either is a bit mental.

[PrometheusUnbound]

Granted, this thread is a little old, but its a subject that i have strong opinions about.

I agree with OP. In fact, the one thing that spoils sandbox, for me, is the lack of roleplay. Lack of immersion. I prefer Sandbox due to it giving the ability to be creative without limits. I purchased KSP for exactly that. Thats not to say i never play in career mode. But i admit that i prefer Sandbox.

When i saw the scientific instruments, for the first time, the game became so much more than the challenges of orbits, landings and all matter of other challenges. Until i tried to use them....

At which point my excitement dropped faster than a Kerbal who turned off his jetpack mid-flight. Sure i still have the other features of the game, and they keep me playing. But having science would complete sandbox, for me.

I am not talking about having a tech tree. Thats for Career mode, and rightly so. But having the immersive messages, and even a total of the points i have accrued. Thats perfect. I can do science, and feel i have achieved something. It also gives me more reason to play.

[dryer_lint]

I agree with this so much. Actually made a thread with the same suggestion a while back, but it died pretty quickly.

[Bilfr3d]

I agree with the science collecting part, but I wouldn't be too worried about the tech tree. I'd use to know where I get science, and how much I get for each science equipment. It'd be good if this could be added.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

I disagree with the OP. I think that Science is just a currency, and the messages are for those currencies. I do not think that it should be an option to turn them off from career. As for this would make me, and other Career players wanting to turn them off. I am sure when 0.24 comes out you will be able to edit rep, and currency. So just do that.

[Seret]

I am not talking about having a tech tree. Thats for Career mode, and rightly so. But having the immersive messages, and even a total of the points i have accrued. Thats perfect. I can do science, and feel i have achieved something. It also gives me more reason to play.

Sounds like the best thing to do would be play in Career mode, but edit your save so that you'd have all parts unlocked at the start of the game. Turn off money, or edit it to give yourself as much as you like. Getting the game into the state you want it sounds pretty easy really. It's on of KSP's strengths that it's so easy to edit these things.

[tntristan12]

Aside from Hyomoto and a handful of people who haven't really contributed anything to the argument, I think the support for this idea is pretty widespread. I +1 the OP! Unfortunately I also feel like this is going to have to wait until we get a "tweak update" which doesn't really introduce any big things but fixes small annoyances like this. Personally I think that since career mode will at least be on par developmentally with the rest of the game after this update comes out, 0.25 would be an excellent time for this.

[PrometheusUnbound]

Sounds like the best thing to do would be play in Career mode, but edit your save so that you'd have all parts unlocked at the start of the game. Turn off money, or edit it to give yourself as much as you like. Getting the game into the state you want it sounds pretty easy really. It's on of KSP's strengths that it's so easy to edit these things.

For me, your suggestion is a case of been there done that. It just does not feel the same. I know that may sound odd to some. I have perused various forum posts relating to KSP about the subject of science ind sandbox mode, and one of the oft suggestions is variants of your own suggestion. Dont get me wrong, your suggestion is a great one. But it would seem, through most of those posts, people are of the same opinion of sandbox having science. And no need to use "hacks" or whatever on career mode. Which feels wrong to me in so many ways.

Career is for the challenge of building from scratch. Sandbox is being given all the tools you need to enjoy creativity, and not have to worry about things such as money, rep, and so on. All i, and others ask, is that we can have the immersion in sandbox.

Anyway, thank you for your suggestion. it IS appreciated i assure you.

And sorry for the long post. I just feel the need to clarify.