Should China be allowed to collaborate with NASA?

[kmMango]

So, there is a law banning China from collaboration with NASA in any capacity. Tell me, do you think this law is a good move, or is the US Congress being stupid?

Rules

1. No political arguments.

2. No nationalism.

3. No insulting someone else's country

4. No Economics, unless it involves space.

5. No avocados.

Edited May 24, 2014 by kmMango

[sal_vager]

Moved to the Lounge as this isn't really science, also please avoid any flaming, arguments, excessive politics, advocacy, avocados and both general and major disquiet please.

[astroboy820]

Science ALWAYS trumps politics. Science is meant to further what we can do, it should be country-independent endeavour.

[astropapi1]

Of course. There's no need to re-invent the wheel.

[vger]

Science ALWAYS trumps politics.

It doesn't if the government controls all the scientists

[Spartwo]

No. let NASA move at it's snail pace in comparison to China. I reckon in a decade or two they'll be ahead.

[Guest]

They should. Politics should not get in the way of neither science nor art.

[razark]

Tell me, do you think this law is a good move, or is the US Congress being stupid?

For national security reasons, I think there are countries that should not be included in the space program. The only difference between a space rocket and a ballistic missile is where the guidance system is programmed to send it. That is not technology that needs to be handed out to every country that wants it. There's a reason that foreign nationals need to fill out paperwork to access sites or computer systems, and any information/articles/presentations that are released to non-NASA audiences is checked for Export Control Restrictions and "Missile Technology" data.

Now, seeing as China has already demonstrated spaceflight, ICBM, and anti-satellite capabilities, does preventing them access to our technology do any good? Maybe. There's not even a fine line between rockets and missiles; they're exactly the same. Any propulsion or guidance system data they can get relating to NASA can give them a pretty good idea of what our DoD capabilities are. Many of the same contractors that work with NASA also handle DoD work. Aside from that, even if China didn't make use of the information themselves, can we trust that they won't sell it to someone that would use it?

Furthermore, if China gets really good at space, we can get a real space race going again, and maybe NASA will actually get to do stuff again.

[vger]

Now, seeing as China has already demonstrated spaceflight, ICBM, and anti-satellite capabilities, does preventing them access to our technology do any good?

Considering that they probably have access to it already anyway?

[NASAFanboy]

No, let us have another space race.

NASA needs competition. America only performs a massive national effort when there is a threat. America hates China with a passion. Thus, when China starts to project it's power internationally, America will ramp up their own efforts to outdo China (And if history is to be trusted, this will either lead into another Cold War, another two decades of American hyperpowerness, possible Sino-American collboration, or China beating America and taking the lead.)

After the space race, then let both Americans and Chinese enjoy a cup of tea at Mars Base One. I'm all for it.

But for now, we need another space race to warm things up a little.

[razark]

Considering that they probably have access to it already anyway?

So, you admidt they have a history of not being trustworthy, then?

Section 516 of Public Law 113-6 effectively prohibits the U.S. Departments of Commerce and Justice, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the National Science Foundation (NSF) and other key agencies from buying IT equipment, software, or services from any entity “owned, directed, or subsidized by the People’s Republic of China.â€Â

It's amusing to see the scramble when people are told they can't buy IT equipment from China.

*on cue, everyone picks up their keyboards, flips them over, and reads the labels* "Well, Congress won't let me work today, either!"

[vger]

America hates China with a passion.

Not entirely. Big biz lives on China and that factors into anything that the politicians might do. That wasn't the case during Space Race 1.0.

After the space race, then let both Americans and Chinese enjoy a cup of tea at Mars Base One. I'm all for it.

But for now, we need another space race to warm things up a little.

... and now you've got me wondering how challenging it would be to have tea on the moon. And I mean with an actual tea set, not high-tech space sippy cups.

So, you admidt they have a history of not being trustworthy, then?

I remember their Olympic Opening Ceremonies too.

Edited May 21, 2014 by vger

[andrew123]

Those big biz corporations do have an interest in long term survival, while Chinese state owned corporations seem interested in crippling international entities and picking up their ip for virtually no money. Just look at the South Korean car companies that got lapped up by the Chinese Politburo during the Asian financial crisis, do you really think that they would hesitate to purchase intellectual property from IBM and General Electric through a fake foreign proxy company if the opportunity presented itself?

My point is, China is not a sneaky player. While the Soviets took great strides to cover up their copycat activities, such as purchasing F-5 wreckages for reverse engineering, the Chinese make aggressive economic takeovers.

This means NASA is going to have a hell of a time helping American private space companies. Our space technology is quite advanced, and the Chinese wouldn't hesitate to lap up private American space companies if they suddenly imploded. This could work as an incentive for NASA to try harder in space travel.

And that was a rant.

[kmMango]

While I agree that China cannot be trusted with certain data, I also believe that they probably know all about our missiles by now. Also, NASA does not oversee missile research. That is overseen by the Armed Forces. So, China should not be allowed to work on any programs launched by the Air Force, NRO, CIA, etc., but I don't see the harm in working with NASA, a civilian agency.

[vger]

Woopert, part of me despises China with a passion, but I also recognize the benefits collaboration could bring. Also, we collaborate with Russia, and don't tell me they don't make people "disappear", or use force against protesters.

Yeah, I was thinking that. I seem to remember some talk about the U.S. "quitting" the ISS because of Ukraine. I think most of us knew that wasn't going to happen though.

[Valley]

Yes.

1. I think China is serious about their space program and about going to the Moon. I would prefer NASA joined them in going back to the Moon.

2. By joining up with China we may be able to help it with those issues they have with human rights and such.

3. NASA can't give them any secrets as much of those secrets are held by the military or private companies.

4. As China has landed a rover on the Moon they are, kind, already equal to NASA in some levels of technology. In fact we can't even get people into space right now. Maybe China should worry about us stealing stuff from them? 6_6

[Woopert]

In fact we can't even get people into space right now.

We could actually. I'm not one of those people that thinks the retiring of the STS program was a bad idea, it was a good decision because of how ridiculously expensive it was, but they COULD HAVE if they wanted to kept it running, therefore giving us a way to space. So, the problem isn't that we *can't*, it's that we don't have *proper funding*.

[razark]

Also, NASA does not oversee missile research. That is overseen by the Armed Forces. So, China should not be allowed to work on any programs launched by the Air Force, NRO, CIA, etc., but I don't see the harm in working with NASA, a civilian agency.

The line between NASA and the military is very thin. It's not uncommon to see military uniforms wandering around NASA centers, as some NASA people are on loan from the military, not to mention many of the astronauts who are active duty military officers. In the aftermath of the Columbia incident, my father, as a civilian NASA engineer, had a security clearance so he could know the capabilities of the NRO imaging systems. There are entire areas that are locked up due to the classified nature of the work they handle. The government makes much about requiring personnel to take training on handling classified information, as well as Sensitive But Unclassified data.

3. NASA can't give them any secrets as much of those secrets are held by the military or private companies.

Except that many of those private companies hold NASA and military contracts. Note above about classified information and work areas.

[Woopert]

I went on tour at KSC, the real one of course, and the tour guide said that there is a rivalry with NASA. It dates back to the Space Race days, since von Braun moved from working for the military to working for NASA. Apparently, a lot of the things NASA does is for advancing humanity/science and they have a strong belief in making their work and discoveries public. The USAF at Cape Canaveral Base (which is separate from Kennedy Space Center, something a lot of people don't know) are all heavily guarded, forbid pictures on their base (the tour takes you on base), and are just a bit mean and bitter at NASA for taking von Braun (even though it was obviously the right thing to do, without him we might not have reached the Moon). USAF doesn't even let you take pictures of the cool sights, there was a Delta IV Medium rocket in its hangar and if you take pictures they take you and you... get in trouble. Although, once you exit the base you can still see it and take pictures there, perfectly legally of course.

TL;DR

So yeah, a lot of people at NASA don't like the military, especially USAF at their Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. This is a VERY broad generalization though, I'm sure there's a lot of military fans and former military people at NASA (as most astronauts were in the military previously, IIRC)

Edited May 22, 2014 by Woopert

[kmMango]

Solution to getting stuff (including people) into orbit: There is money to be made in LEO. Let Musk, Branson, Boeing, and whoever else handle LEO. NASA can then focus on interplanetary missions.

[Red Iron Crown]

Should probably back away from the human rights bit if you don't want the thread locked.

I would like it if NASA and China could find a way to collaborate. Science is by nature a collaborative process, and cooperation reduces duplication of effort.

[Iforgotthis]

Should probably back away from the human rights bit if you don't want the thread locked.

I would like it if NASA and China could find a way to collaborate. Science is by nature a collaborative process, and cooperation reduces duplication of effort.

That's probably a very good idea; conversations like this never go well.

I agree that china and NASA should collaborate. Space isn't one nation's or another, it is a place were countries don't exist an I think our efforts in its exploration should reflect this.

[cesarcurado]

That's probably a very good idea; conversations like this never go well.

I agree that china and NASA should collaborate. Space isn't one nation's or another, it is a place were countries don't exist an I think our efforts in its exploration should reflect this.

Agree with you there, but the problem is that people want to change that, they want to claim space for their own country, forbidding other countries from going there...

That is all because they are extremely nationalistic, and they think it's ok if people die as long as their are inside different borders.

Kind of sad that fascism is still strong in the world...

[[email protected]]

Agree with you there, but the problem is that people want to change that, they want to claim space for their own country, forbidding other countries from going there...

That is all because they are extremely nationalistic, and they think it's ok if people die as long as their are inside different borders.

Kind of sad that fascism is still strong in the world...

I agree here. I'd much rather see a voluntaryist cooperative into space than nations...I can dream... I really don't want to see 'countries' or bloated legal systems on Mars.

[NASAFanboy]

The bottled water of space.

I'd rather have the government control everything than a corporation.

Atleast a government is somewhat obliged to do actions in the best interest of its citizens. A corporation is obliged to do things in the best interest of their wallet. Come to think of it, I want governments to control space, not companies in the way of special "committees". A committee would be formed up of all the spacefaring nations who are capable of reaching that destination and they would control the area, for example, a company who wants to mine on Mars in 2050 will have to be approved by both the American, Chinese, European, and Russian delegates in a quick vote on their permit request

But what I do support is increasing the powers of the UN and adding more members into the security council and ejecting members who are notorious for civil rights abuses (I'll say North Korea to avoid another five pages of discussion) along with strengthening the UN peacekeeping corps and having them directly cooperate with the best militaries of the world (Russia, United States, China) in operations, along with slowly raising the standards of impoverished nations and loosening border restrictions between first world nations.

Not a world government, since humanity is too factionized to make one for the next five centuries, but close enough.