[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [26.0][18.12.2023][Things are happening]

[NathanKell]

MysteriousSteve: Yes it did, the Block E. It was a small kick stage, the same one used for the Luna missions. See here. Also, wikipedia's main pic for the Vostok program shows the spacecraft still attached to the Block E.

Beale: Very nice!

For the volumes, you can just use the tonnage of kero + lox in each core and booster, and linearly scale them all down, so the same ratio between core and booster fuel is kept.

[biohazard15]

This is simply AWESOME!!! Can't wait for the release!

Would there be some custom decouplers? Also, it would be a nice touch to add small separation rockets (facing core stage) to the side booster nose, to help with separation (and Korolev's cross).

[Niemand303]

R7

Very, very happy with how this has turned out!

http://puu.sh/cR11x/b36b9244ac.jpg

http://puu.sh/cR2Z2/e42ab37ddf.jpg

http://puu.sh/cR14Z/a69448943e.jpg

http://puu.sh/cR179/90b06f7727.jpg

They all share the same texture

http://puu.sh/cR1ge/3d9ca8666b.jpg

One thing I need a little help with...

Fuel amounts?

I recall the equations to calculate volume of cylinder... But to calculate volume of the side tanks? (They have a gradient also, not a straight triangle)

Edit: Substitute some scaled down Proton engines to get the idea of what it may look like.

http://puu.sh/cR2JP/03502f6dbf.jpg

Looks great! I think I should find my old numbers I've made for my R-7 I modelled. The trick is that radial boosters and center one have almost the same engines, and after some calculations I've approximated that radials have around 60% of fuel of the core.

[Darth Lazarus]

R7

Very, very happy with how this has turned out!

http://puu.sh/cR11x/b36b9244ac.jpg

http://puu.sh/cR2Z2/e42ab37ddf.jpg

http://puu.sh/cR14Z/a69448943e.jpg

http://puu.sh/cR179/90b06f7727.jpg

They all share the same texture

http://puu.sh/cR1ge/3d9ca8666b.jpg

One thing I need a little help with...

Fuel amounts?

I recall the equations to calculate volume of cylinder... But to calculate volume of the side tanks? (They have a gradient also, not a straight triangle)

Edit: Substitute some scaled down Proton engines to get the idea of what it may look like.

http://puu.sh/cR2JP/03502f6dbf.jpg

wow .... just wow

no changes needed so far from my point of view

[biohazard15]

Looks great! I think I should find my old numbers I've made for my R-7 I modelled. The trick is that radial boosters and center one have almost the same engines, and after some calculations I've approximated that radials have around 60% of fuel of the core.

RD-107 (boosters) has two vernier thrusters and slightly higher thrust than RD-108 (core), which has four verniers.

There are several options:

- First: make two engines - one with gimbal for core stage and one without gimbal, but with higher thrust, for boosters. A good example of it is LV-T-30\LV-T-45 pair.

- Second: make one engine with gimbal for core stage, and make booster as one part (like NP Soyuz boosters)

- Third: make both core and boosters as one part, like TLV's 1st stage

Also, consider making small winglets for boosters (FAR\NEAR-compatible, if possible).

Performance: I think I wrote about it earlier, but still:

- Boosters+core: Can launch Sputnik (1-1.5 tons to orbit)

- Add a small 2nd stage: Vostok (can launch Vostok or small sats)

- Add a large 2nd stage: Modern Soyuz (can launch Tantares, Hamal, large sats)

[AppleDavidJeans]

Will there be custom fairing to go along with the R7 this time?

[Guest]

Woah!, nice R7, BTW, Yuri Gagarin's R7 didn't have the Upper Stage.

Err... it did, it was just shorter than on Soyuz/Voskhod. It was the same upper stage as on Luna rockets. Sputnik and Polyot didn't have an upper stage.

[nothingSpecial]

I personally against making engines for core and for boosters different, (it will be four 1.25m high-trust-low-efficiency engines total with stock ones) but the LV-T-30/LV-T-45 example sounds reasonable.

[biohazard15]

Will there be custom fairing to go along with the R7 this time?

That would be nice, by the way - at least for Soyuz (with corresponding LES). Not sure about Progress - for example, I often insert additional 1.25m module (snacks, Station Science experiment or Kibbal storage tank, etc) between control block and engine. That means if you make a fairing suitable only for "stock" config, it would be of no use for me and anyone who likes to customize their Progress.

Anyway, fairings "roadmap":

- Universal fairing base\decoupler for future R-7

- Lower fairing half - universal part for both Soyuz and Progress

- Soyuz fairing - with 1.25m mounting place on top, for LES. Has decoupler. Attach it to Soyuz docking port and use action group (decouple fairing + activate LES) to jettison.

- Progress fairing - simple nosecone with a fairly powerful decoupler. Can also be used for Vostok

- Custom LES - optional.

[Beale]

Wow! Talk about feedback!

Lookin' nice!

3 words can describe this:

THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!

Woah!, nice R7, BTW, Yuri Gagarin's R7 didn't have the Upper Stage.

wow .... just wow

no changes needed so far from my point of view

Thankyou! Very nice to hear and glad people like it

Beale: Woooow, very nice work!!!

My test SSTO.

http://img98.rajce.idnes.cz/d9802/10/10447/10447390_7baedd9cfb1ead1a3fc4c0161e06b526/images/screenshot84.jpg?ver=0

Great stuff I always have this kind of abort system, to avoid killing too many Kerbals with SSTO development!

So, my opinion on the side tanks- Make it take a normal soyuz no special stuff about 10km before seperating, not sure that fuel amount. 10km straight up, btw.

Hi!

I'm not sure about the ascent yet, will have to be a trial and error.

Beale: Very nice!

For the volumes, you can just use the tonnage of kero + lox in each core and booster, and linearly scale them all down, so the same ratio between core and booster fuel is kept.

Thanks!

That's a pretty good method of calculating the fuel, thanks!

This is simply AWESOME!!! Can't wait for the release!

Would there be some custom decouplers? Also, it would be a nice touch to add small separation rockets (facing core stage) to the side booster nose, to help with separation (and Korolev's cross).

With the radial decouplers currently broken in stock, I guess it is needed

Looks great! I think I should find my old numbers I've made for my R-7 I modelled. The trick is that radial boosters and center one have almost the same engines, and after some calculations I've approximated that radials have around 60% of fuel of the core.

That is great thanks!

I think 60% is a pretty accurate amount actually, in terms of volume...

RD-107 (boosters) has two vernier thrusters and slightly higher thrust than RD-108 (core), which has four verniers.

There are several options:

- First: make two engines - one with gimbal for core stage and one without gimbal, but with higher thrust, for boosters. A good example of it is LV-T-30\LV-T-45 pair.

- Second: make one engine with gimbal for core stage, and make booster as one part (like NP Soyuz boosters)

- Third: make both core and boosters as one part, like TLV's 1st stage

Also, consider making small winglets for boosters (FAR\NEAR-compatible, if possible).

Performance: I think I wrote about it earlier, but still:

- Boosters+core: Can launch Sputnik (1-1.5 tons to orbit)

- Add a small 2nd stage: Vostok (can launch Vostok or small sats)

- Add a large 2nd stage: Modern Soyuz (can launch Tantares, Hamal, large sats)

I personally against making engines for core and for boosters different, (it will be four 1.25m high-trust-low-efficiency engines total with stock ones) but the LV-T-30/LV-T-45 example sounds reasonable.

Interesting ideas here...

I think the LV-T-30/45 analogue is a good one.

My rough idea is engines of

Thrust: 400 or around this.

ISP: 310 to 350?

If verniers, I would make them separate small radial parts (Winglet vernier combo?).

Will there be custom fairing to go along with the R7 this time?

That would be nice, by the way - at least for Soyuz (with corresponding LES). Not sure about Progress - for example, I often insert additional 1.25m module (snacks, Station Science experiment or Kibbal storage tank, etc) between control block and engine. That means if you make a fairing suitable only for "stock" config, it would be of no use for me and anyone who likes to customize their Progress.

Anyway, fairings "roadmap":

- Universal fairing base\decoupler for future R-7

- Lower fairing half - universal part for both Soyuz and Progress

- Soyuz fairing - with 1.25m mounting place on top, for LES. Has decoupler. Attach it to Soyuz docking port and use action group (decouple fairing + activate LES) to jettison.

- Progress fairing - simple nosecone with a fairly powerful decoupler. Can also be used for Vostok

- Custom LES - optional.

Fairings, I still err on the side of pFairings, but with some custom LES.

The point about Progress is valid, I use it for station science also.

Eh, this is a tricky one, it's true. The fairings kind of complete the look (Or maybe the LES alone will complete the look).

Edited November 15, 2014 by Beale

[Niemand303]

BTW, Beale, can you put CoM downward a little on Vostok capsule, so it would be compatible with FAR (otherwise the parachute makes the capsule unstable on reentry and pilot dead)? I don't think it will change anything for anyone who doesn't use FAR, but for the others it may be good. c:

[biohazard15]

BTW, Beale, can you put CoM downward a little on Vostok capsule, so it would be compatible with FAR (otherwise the parachute makes the capsule unstable on reentry and pilot dead)? I don't think it will change anything for anyone who doesn't use FAR, but for the others it may be good. c:

Um, I don't know about FAR re-rentry profile, but with NEAR+DRE I can make a nice landing with pilot alive and kicking. Maybe you're opening your chute too early (I tend to open it at less than 300 m\s), or your trajectory is too steep?

[SnowWhite]

Beale, your R-7 (Yeah, R-7, not R7) looks cool! Of course, I like not everything in your R-7, but... I don't want to grumble, it's your personal style! I hope you'll finish it soon.

And here is "Vostok"!

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[Niemand303]

Um, I don't know about FAR re-rentry profile, but with NEAR+DRE I can make a nice landing with pilot alive and kicking. Maybe you're opening your chute too early (I tend to open it at less than 300 m\s), or your trajectory is too steep?

No, it's without openning the chute, with FAR+RSS (1/10 Earth)+Deadly Reentry and the trajectory is suborbital:

[Beale]

BTW, Beale, can you put CoM downward a little on Vostok capsule, so it would be compatible with FAR (otherwise the parachute makes the capsule unstable on reentry and pilot dead)? I don't think it will change anything for anyone who doesn't use FAR, but for the others it may be good. c:

Um, I don't know about FAR re-rentry profile, but with NEAR+DRE I can make a nice landing with pilot alive and kicking. Maybe you're opening your chute too early (I tend to open it at less than 300 m\s), or your trajectory is too steep?

A COM offset could be done.

I have tried it with NEAR+DRE myself also, no problems.

I don't really know the differences FAR brings, but to add extra compatibility, why not eh? (Add a COM offset, that is).

Beale, your R-7 (Yeah, R-7, not R7) looks cool! Of course, I like not everything in your R-7, but... I don't want to grumble, it's your personal style! I hope you'll finish it soon.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/GPN-2002-000184.png

And here is "Vostok"!

http://imgur.com/a/CTJiz

Great stuff!

Very very nice Vostok there. You recreated Gagarin's original peril with separation

What antennas are you using? I like them a lot.

Thank you on the R7! No need to worry about "grumbling" I really do want to hear people's opinions if they do not like something in particular!

No, it's without openning the chute, with FAR+RSS (1/10 Earth)+Deadly Reentry and the trajectory is suborbital:

http://cs624231.vk.me/v624231511/aef5/ReVYrkreRno.jpg

http://cs624231.vk.me/v624231511/af09/JmooK1Cuykg.jpg

http://cs624231.vk.me/v624231511/af13/Ot9-bYhBcVM.jpg

Wow! That is, er... A bit of a disaster.

I see the problem!

Will fix.

I'm really not sure what FAR is doing there... I guess the top is the "heaviest" part, as sometimes the AERO calculations seem to ignore the root part in my experience...

Edited November 15, 2014 by Beale

[Gristle]

I believe the antennas SnowWhite is using are part of the NovaPunch mod.

[Niemand303]

Beale, that's not quite a disaster, as it was a first suborbital unmanned test in our roleplay with friends.

I think I will patch it myself for the time being.

I believe the antennas SnowWhite is using are part of the NovaPunch mod.

They are from AIES, definitely.

[SnowWhite]

What antennas are you using? I like them a lot.

I use AIES.

No, it's without openning the chute, with FAR+RSS (1/10 Earth)+Deadly Reentry and the trajectory is suborbital:

Do you use FAR because of Realism Overhaul? No? If no- try to use NEAR, IMHO it is much more playable unlike FAR. Playing with FAR- just spin and flutter simulator.

[Beale]

Beale, that's not quite a disaster, as it was a first suborbital unmanned test in our roleplay with friends.

I think I will patch it myself for the time being.

Haha, well as long as no Kerbal is harmed.

I use AIES.

Great! Thanks!

Engine...

This was adapted from the fine work of Niemand303 and his WIP K7 rocket. Now reborn as the TLV's version of the RD-107

Assembly

Edited November 15, 2014 by Beale

[kopapaka]

Great stuff I always have this kind of abort system, to avoid killing too many Kerbals with SSTO development!

More tests...

[Tapejara]

Your rate of progress with that R7 is astounding, Beale. I can hardly wait to play through a 99%-Tantares-parts-only career game with it!

[Beale]

More tests...

Nice little demonstration!

Is that a Skylon parked by the runway?

Your rate of progress with that R7 is astounding, Beale. I can hardly wait to play through a 99%-Tantares-parts-only career game with it!

Many thanks! And nice to hear!

The texture sharing of parts has speed up development a bit.

So...

I Present "Stayputnik 1".

The fuel amounts are pretty accurate I think. Has the same mass ratio as stock tanks.

In VAB.

Ascent. TWR is outstanding. I love it.

To the sky!

Korolev cross

Finale: burn to orbit.

She is released.

Without intentionally nerfing the parts to be worse than stock. It may be slightly overpowered... I suspect it will be able to send a normal Tantares cis-lunar (with upper stage) and a small probe interplanetary (Venus Express?)

Of course the engine ISP is still up for debate...

The real RD-107s clock in at 313 ISP in vacuum, but these are 350.

There is wiggle room: they are high thrust (400KN), so perhaps it should be lower. But I don't want them to be useless outside of this launcher (I imagine some crazy lander designs).

Edited November 15, 2014 by Beale

[Fox62]

I feel that the R7-a-like should be balanced against stock lifter engines. In other words, the first stage and booster engines are high-thrust, relatively low vacuum and ASL ISPs, the second stage engines are mid-range, with good thrust and average ISP, and the 3rd stage engines are dedicated upper-stage/vacuum maneuvering engines. That, and I feel that you should have to use the ALV to send things to the Mun initially. Perhaps make it so that the R7 copy can send a Tantares to LKO, ALV can send Tantares in it's LOK configuration to the Mun, and the Libra Launch Vehicle can pull an Apollo-type Mun mission. Or it at least has the payload capacity and Delta-V for it.

[Beale]

I feel that the R7-a-like should be balanced against stock lifter engines. In other words, the first stage and booster engines are high-thrust, relatively low vacuum and ASL ISPs, the second stage engines are mid-range, with good thrust and average ISP, and the 3rd stage engines are dedicated upper-stage/vacuum maneuvering engines. That, and I feel that you should have to use the ALV to send things to the Mun initially. Perhaps make it so that the R7 copy can send a Tantares to LKO, ALV can send Tantares in it's LOK configuration to the Mun, and the Libra Launch Vehicle can pull an Apollo-type Mun mission. Or it at least has the payload capacity and Delta-V for it.

Thanks for the input

After a bit more experimentation, no, the full configuration will not be able to send a Tantares to the Mun. It will send it to a reasonably high orbit (around 500km), but that's about it.

I think yes, the upper stage engine will be a varient, with different thrust and ISP level. Just need to think about its design.

Current engine are:

RAID-17 (Placeholder name really).

Mass: 1.3

MaxThrust: 415

ISP: 310-350

The mythical LLV, I've yet to decide what this will be

Either the Amur-5 or the Energia / Energia-Vulkan - I can rule out the N1.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Beale

[BLUAV8R]

Looks great!!!!!