[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [26.0][18.12.2023][Things are happening]

[Niemand303]

I liked the idea proposed by Kennedy in 1963 to USSR to unite US and USSR efforts for reaching Moon in a cooperation way. So it's a small fantasy about this timeline, 1980s and building an international station by NASA, ESA and Soviet government. ATV is used as a tug to install US and EU modules. Station is still in construction.

[wasmic]

ALV Booster.

Well, not much to show actually, but it's in game.

title        = ALV Block Booster
manufacturer = TLV
description  = troppo

maxThrust = 2500

	atmosphereCurve
 	{
   	 key = 0 360
  	 key = 1 320
 	}

RESOURCE
{
 name = LiquidFuel
 amount = 2880
 maxAmount = 2880
}

RESOURCE
{
 name = Oxidizer
 amount = 3520
 maxAmount = 3520
}

Using very very placeholder stats and totally wrong FX...

Will need to do the maths... Once all the parts are made.

Just remember that when the tank is full, 10 % of the mass should be structural and 90 % fuel. That's how stock is balanced (except for the ARM tanks, which are 8:1 instead of 9:1).

[Niemand303]

Sounds good!

That's a pretty cool station. It looks Salyut based? (Or at least a similar shape...)

Well, as far as i know, all Russian stations and modules are derived from Salyut or TKS. So I think it's Salyut derived, yes.

ALV Booster.

It's cool! Nice to see the progress! But what are the fairings?

[Beale]

some nu,bers from my stock Proton:

payload: 18 tons max load , sadly a 4 ton fairingcover

friststage

thrust: 2490kN (6x200 + 6x215, all clipped to 6 nozzles showing)

TWR: 1.4

second stage

thrust: 800 kN (4x200)

TWR: around 1.2

thirdstage:

thrust: 231kN (1x215 + 4x4)

TWR: 0.8

flightprofil is good, speed don't gets bigger then terminal velocity in air under 10 kilometers heigh, secondstage has enough thrust on firing to not loose any velocity. thrid stage burntime is longer compared to second and first stage, but it's only for orbital insertion

i hope this somehow helps to get an idea about thrust and TWR for your Proton Beale. an other help woulöd be to look at the bobcat Proton...

Bit more powerful at the moment, still the upper stages are using stock parts.

This is with a Salyut payload

I liked the idea proposed by Kennedy in 1963 to USSR to unite US and USSR efforts for reaching Moon in a cooperation way. So it's a small fantasy about this timeline, 1980s and building an international station by NASA, ESA and Soviet government. ATV is used as a tug to install US and EU modules. Station is still in construction.

http://cs618827.vk.me/v618827511/23e6d/r4XYtvsr4iM.jpg

http://cs618827.vk.me/v618827511/23e77/x89YRXl7NEs.jpg

Nice station!

Just remember that when the tank is full, 10 % of the mass should be structural and 90 % fuel. That's how stock is balanced (except for the ARM tanks, which are 8:1 instead of 9:1).

Roughly using that scale at the moment, yeah (9:1 that is), but slightly heavier to account for the engines.

Well, as far as i know, all Russian stations and modules are derived from Salyut or TKS. So I think it's Salyut derived, yes.

It's cool! Nice to see the progress! But what are the fairings?

I should mention sorry, only have completed the bottom 6-core section yet, the second and third stage are a mix of RLA stockalike and Stock. The payload there was a Cygnus (A bit overkill using a Proton!).

Here's a quick mission.

200km x 200km orbit with plentiful fuel in upper stage.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Beale

[Darth Lazarus]

could you stick a grey fueltank on top of it (same like the one you used fpr second stage)? it weights 18 tons and i would like to see the stats so far as comparision.

ooking very good so far beale. i have an idea for teh third stageengine. i'm sure you are going to build it, but it can be a good alternativ to the poodle with slightly more power and the 1 main nozzle with4 verniers which would look awesome.

[Niemand303]

I should mention sorry, only have completed the bottom 6-core section yet, the second and third stage are a mix of RLA stockalike and Stock.

Well, I guess, it's the most important (and hard to reproduce in stock) part of the Proton and it's done!

I will do some approximate calculations of the stages derived from real Proton-M tonight and publish it here.

[biohazard15]

Proton Mission Planner's Guide: http://www.ilslaunch.com/launch-services/proton-mission-planners-guide

See Ch2 for detailed mission profile.

[Harry Rhodan]

My Proton made of KW parts and clipping. With a TWR of 1.3 with a payload of around 15t not good enough for stock but perfect for FAR.

[Niemand303]

Hm, it seems that dry/wet mass ratio becomes better when scaling down, but still is too good for the stock standard. TWR also improves a bit, given ISP is the same (as both gravity and exhaustion speed are the same). So, I didn't had enough time to make some analyze of the raw results, but here are the raw results of direct scaling down:

First stage:

Thrust -- 2270 kN

Fuel mass -- 97 t

Dry mass -- 11.4 t

ISP -- 288 s

Second stage:

Thrust -- 545 kN

Fuel mass -- 35.7 t

Dry mass -- 4.1 t

ISP -- 320 s

Third stage:

Thrust 132-150 kN

Fuel mass -- 10.5 t

Dry mass -- 1.3 t

ISP -- 325 s

[Niv200]

Could you please create gemini (only the pod and its stuff, eg parachutes)? I would use FASA, but its seems too much spoon-feed to me, since all the rockets like have their own parts and you cant create your "own" rocket, please if you can, make it with the wings that coming while rentry

[Darth Lazarus]

Hm, it seems that dry/wet mass ratio becomes better when scaling down, but still is too good for the stock standard. TWR also improves a bit, given ISP is the same (as both gravity and exhaustion speed are the same). So, I didn't had enough time to make some analyze of the raw results, but here are the raw results of direct scaling down:

First stage:

Thrust -- 2270 kN

Fuel mass -- 97 t

Dry mass -- 11.4 t

ISP -- 288 s

Second stage:

Thrust -- 545 kN

Fuel mass -- 35.7 t

Dry mass -- 4.1 t

ISP -- 320 s

Third stage:

Thrust 132-150 kN

Fuel mass -- 10.5 t

Dry mass -- 1.3 t

ISP -- 325 s

mass of engine included?

[Gribbleshnibit8]

I wrote a little MM patch for the Pol and the CAPELLA to give them MFT support. I gave them capacities based on stock tanks, assuming that half the pod is fuel and the other half is cargo. The CAPELLA I gave 1000L capacity based on the Rockomax X200-16, and the Pol I actually cut way back to just 15L based on the Oscar-B. Which kind of makes it useless for fuel, but oh well? I guess it's more geared toward spare parts and very fast cheap launches anyway.

@PART[Capella_Control_A]:NEEDS[modularFuelTanks|RealFuels]{
    !RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
    !RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        volume = 1000
        type = Structural
    }
}


@PART[Pollux_Control_A]:NEEDS[modularFuelTanks|RealFuels]
{
    !RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
    !RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        volume = 15
        type = Structural
    }
}

[Niemand303]

mass of engine included?

Yes, with engines.

[wasmic]

Hm, it seems that dry/wet mass ratio becomes better when scaling down, but still is too good for the stock standard. TWR also improves a bit, given ISP is the same (as both gravity and exhaustion speed are the same). So, I didn't had enough time to make some analyze of the raw results, but here are the raw results of direct scaling down:

First stage:

Thrust -- 2270 kN

Fuel mass -- 97 t

Dry mass -- 11.4 t

ISP -- 288 s

Second stage:

Thrust -- 545 kN

Fuel mass -- 35.7 t

Dry mass -- 4.1 t

ISP -- 320 s

Third stage:

Thrust 132-150 kN

Fuel mass -- 10.5 t

Dry mass -- 1.3 t

ISP -- 325 s

Is this necessary? It's not a replica of the Proton, it's a kerbalish replica of the Proton. Wouldn't it work if you just found some values that are in compliance with the stock balance, and just use that? Of course, if that can be done without compromising realism, it should be done that way. But if the realism has to suffer to ensure compliance with stock balance, I'd choose compliance with stock balance over realism, at least because this mod is supposed to be kerbalized.

[Niemand303]

Wouldn't it work if you just found some values that are in compliance with the stock balance, and just use that? Of course, if that can be done without compromising realism, it should be done that way. But if the realism has to suffer to ensure compliance with stock balance, I'd choose compliance with stock balance over realism, at least because this mod is supposed to be kerbalized.

That's what I meant, when I pointed out that copying those numbers would be out of game balance.

[wasmic]

That's what I meant, when I pointed out that copying those numbers would be out of game balance.

Ah, right. I hadn't seen that post

[Niemand303]

I've made some dirty calculations and made estimations of ALV based not on the characteristics of Proton but on its lifting capabilities and adjusted to get more playability.

First stage:

Dry mass  9t

Fuel mass  72t

Thrust  2700 kN

ISP  290 (in atmosphere)

TWR at start with 25t payload  ~1.8

Second stage:

Dry mass  4.2t

Fuel mass  32-34t

Thrust  1200 kN

ISP  330s

TWR at start with 25t payload  ~1.5

Third stage:

Dry mass  2t

Fuel mass  16t

Thrust  500 kN

ISP  360s

TWR at start with 25t payload  ~1

All was calculated to get around 5k delta V with a payload mass of 25 tons.

[Beale]

I wrote a little MM patch for the Pol and the CAPELLA to give them MFT support. I gave them capacities based on stock tanks, assuming that half the pod is fuel and the other half is cargo. The CAPELLA I gave 1000L capacity based on the Rockomax X200-16, and the Pol I actually cut way back to just 15L based on the Oscar-B. Which kind of makes it useless for fuel, but oh well? I guess it's more geared toward spare parts and very fast cheap launches anyway.

Code:

@PART[Capella_Control_A]:NEEDS[modularFuelTanks|RealFuels]{

!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}

!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}

MODULE

{

name = ModuleFuelTanks

volume = 1000

type = Structural

}

}

@PART[Pollux_Control_A]:NEEDS[modularFuelTanks|RealFuels]

{

!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}

!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}

MODULE

{

name = ModuleFuelTanks

volume = 15

type = Structural

}

}

I'll add it! Thanks!

Could you please create gemini (only the pod and its stuff, eg parachutes)? I would use FASA, but its seems too much spoon-feed to me, since all the rockets like have their own parts and you cant create your "own" rocket, please if you can, make it with the wings that coming while rentry

I had a few Gemini ideas, but nothing in the works yet, sorry to tell you.

Ever tried ProceduralParts? Might be a solution.

(Something I put together in a few minutes)

There was also a stockalike Gemini mod I saw some times ago, but I really can't remember the name now, sorry.

I've made some dirty calculations and made estimations of ALV based not on the characteristics of Proton but on its lifting capabilities and adjusted to get more playability.

First stage:

Dry mass  9t

Fuel mass  72t

Thrust  2700 kN

ISP  290 (in atmosphere)

TWR at start with 25t payload  ~1.8

Second stage:

Dry mass  4.2t

Fuel mass  32-34t

Thrust  1200 kN

ISP  330s

TWR at start with 25t payload  ~1.5

Third stage:

Dry mass  2t

Fuel mass  16t

Thrust  500 kN

ISP  360s

TWR at start with 25t payload  ~1

All was calculated to get around 5k delta V with a payload mass of 25 tons.

Thanks a million!

I'd been experimenting with stats adapted from your previous and kept hitting a brick wall trying to get anything more than 10T to orbit (my attempts at "nerfing" the stats).

I'll try these new numbers!

Edit: with these new numbers, I could get this up in one, rather than two launches.

I think the Lab module is about 15tons actually, so that's what the current Proton can just about manage. I'll see the before and after with your numbers

Edited September 17, 2014 by Beale

[Parokki]

What face pack are you using in the screenshot titled "VA Capsule IVA"? My space programme absolutely requires this gruffy handsome devil!

[DGatsby]

Could you please create gemini (only the pod and its stuff, eg parachutes)? I would use FASA, but its seems too much spoon-feed to me, since all the rockets like have their own parts and you cant create your "own" rocket, please if you can, make it with the wings that coming while rentry

HGR has a really great Gemini equilivent: HGR

[Beale]

What face pack are you using in the screenshot titled "VA Capsule IVA"? My space programme absolutely requires this gruffy handsome devil!

Erm, I don't know the name. But I believe you can find it on the Texture Replacer thread first page.

HGR has a really great Gemini equilivent: HGR

Forgot about that one, yep, it's quite flexible actually.

@Niemand303

After applying those stats you've given (Maybe applied wrongly) here's the results...

Some good, some bad

Delta V seems good.

Low TWR on take-off (1.13) , but it builds well (Around 3 at staging).

Stage 2 tank

Only issue I see is that the booster stage carries almost double the fuel of the largest in-game tank, despite being only slightly bigger.

[Reddragon]

About 4500m/s DV is needed to get something to a 100x100km equatorial orbit. I think you should adjust it for a full Alnair (Salyut) station of Tantares parts.

And also, very nice parts you made there.

[Beale]

About 4500m/s DV is needed to get something to a 100x100km equatorial orbit. I think you should adjust it for a full Alnair (Salyut) station of Tantares parts.

And also, very nice parts you made there.

Thanks!

Actually I screwed up Niemand303's calculations and ended up giving the tanks double the correct fuel.

I.E. Putting ((72/0.005)*0.9) units of liquid fuel in.

Adjusted, still quite capable. I believe the Alnair is heavier than the Vega, but haven't tested yet.

[Niemand303]

Adjusted, still quite capable.

http://puu.sh/bCPoY/fdbd4e3351.jpg

Strange, I must've overshot "just a little".

I tried to simulate its capabilities to put 25 tons on 200x200km orbit. Well, as I've arrived home right now I have the opportunity to double-check the calculations.

Edit: oh, well, I see now, the point is Vega station is so light (about 10 tons) it makes lots of spare delta V.

Edit 2: Alnair weights around 15 tons, so it will work just fine, I guess.

Edit 3: All the mass is actually with DangIt and Snacks stuff so stock versions will be a couple of tons lighter.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Niemand303

[Beale]

Strange, I must've overshot "just a little".

I tried to simulate its capabilities to put 25 tons on 200x200km orbit. Well, as I've arrived home right now I have the opportunity to double-check the calculations.

Edit: oh, well, I see now, the point is Vega station is so light (about 10 tons) it makes lots of spare delta V.

Edit 2: Alnair weights around 15 tons, so it will work just fine, I guess.

Edit 3: All the mass is actually with DangIt and Snacks stuff so stock versions will be a couple of tons lighter.

Yeah, it's quite light for it's size (but so would be a similar size station made of stock parts).

Thanks a lot for the numbers, they seem great!

Working on the S2 (& 3?) Engine, vaguely RD-180 looking.

Edit: ah, the second stage is actually 4 core. Re-design needed.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Beale