Alien intelligence and civilizations

[LABHOUSE]

Well I want to have a big argument for both sides.

Aliens may be 10000 times as smart as us but may lack opposable thumbs so civilizations not always possible. -- You try to prove how no matter what they could have a civilization without thumbs OR try to prove how they might not have a civilization with 10000 times as much intelligence as us.

They might be super smart but have always fought the same war and that has made them incapable of making advanced civilizations or even better weapons to fight each other. -- try to support this or prove it wrong.

They live in caves and eat the birds that eat the bugs that go throughout the small cracks into the cave no one seems can leave so they cannot see and there is only plant life outside the cave so it is hard to make civilizations. -- again prove it or prove it wrong.

There is no plant life anywhere but there are dungbeetles that eat the cow poo that et eats. Prove it true or wrong.

[Kryten]

Are you high?

[Moon Goddess]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kryten again."

[Nuke]

sometimes, i am not even convinced that there is intelligence on this planet. this is one of those times.

[Seret]

Aliens may be 10000 times as smart as us but may lack opposable thumbs so civilizations not always possible

Or maybe they're only opposable thumbs. Imagine that!

[jwenting]

it's not hard to be 1000 times as smart as someone who believes in hyperintelligent alien beings with no way to influence their environment, no interaction with anything outside a very small area they despite their mysteriously developed intelligence can't leave, no way to become a tool user...

In fact your average amoeba right here on earth may well qualify.

[Dodgey]

Ah hum

In any case let's not stifle curiosity here guys. The questions are mal formed and, well, silly but there is still a conversation to be had here. Personally I'm quite interested in how a creature with out thumbs could interact with its environment as well as we do, would it have tentacles, claws, ect.

[Seret]

Personally I'm quite interested in how a creature with out thumbs could interact with its environment as well as we do, would it have tentacles, claws, ect.

Tentacles would work fine, octopuses are pretty handy and not at all stupid.

[Scotius]

Maybe elongated, prehensile tongue Or, if they are 1000 times as inteligent as us, their nervous system equivalent should produce shocking amounts of energy - so maybe they are using telekinesis?

I agree - those questions are silly. But...we have no idea what might be out there. Maybe one day human explorers do encounter a species of incredibly intelligent, cave dwelling beings. They will have no material civilisation we see as the norm - but they will be able to realise themselves by having conversations about higher math and philosophy.

[phoenix_ca]

Aliens are real, and I have the grapefruits to prove it.

[Dodgey]

Tentacles would work fine, octopuses are pretty handy and not at all stupid.

As I understand it tentacles wouldn't make that much sense out side of the ocean, they have no internal support (could be wrong) which is a problem above ground. Hence why we have bones.

[Seret]

As I understand it tentacles wouldn't make that much sense out side of the ocean, they have no internal support (could be wrong) which is a problem above ground. Hence why we have bones.

a) There's plenty of fairly intelligent life in the oceans.

Having no internal support isn't a huge problem if you're just using them to manipulate things. An elephant's trunk, for example. That's purely muscular.

[Dodgey]

Oh right the ocean. Honestly I forgot about that. Hmm that's true about the trunk. I guess I was wrong. Good point.

[NASAFanboy]

I recommend the following books.

- Mote in Gods Eye

- Pandoras Planet

They deal with either humans or aliens contacting humans who discover that a native species is much more intelligent than them but have not at all achieved the same level of technological advancement.

[KerbMav]

Maybe one day human explorers do encounter a species of incredibly intelligent, cave dwelling beings. They will have no material civilisation we see as the norm - but they will be able to realise themselves by having conversations about higher math and philosophy.

"What is it you say you are? Hew-mons? And you left your planet, made yourself visible in the galaxy, came all the long way to our NEW HOME and probably led THEM right back here too? Great ... guys, dig out the old ship, we are leaving ... AGAIN!"

Maybe the reason we never heard something from outer space (SETI etc.) is that there is a damn good reason to keep a low profile?

[Othuyeg]

When you consider the scale of the universe it is not a question of if there is intelligent life out there but rather can we expect to contact such a civilization within the time that humans exist.

If we are able to achieve interstellar travel and colonize other worlds, our life expectancy as a race will greatly improve and then it might just be possible to meet an alien intelligence.

[Nuke]

lots of people speculate on the intelligence of whales and dolphins. if these species had the intelligence of man, you would never know it. they would be unlikely to develop some of the technologies we would be able to make. lets see them develop electronics in their electrically conductive atmosphere. being predatory, they would never get around to developing agriculture. my brain struggles to imagine what kind of civilization such creatures could build if they had human intelligence.

[Kryten]

being predatory, they would never get around to developing agriculture.

Ranching is agriculture.

[Nuke]

i suppose so. problem is the ocean is so teaming with life i dont suppose such measures would be neccisary. unless of course there were a bunch of hairless apes on the surface stealing all the fish.

[jwenting]

As I understand it tentacles wouldn't make that much sense out side of the ocean, they have no internal support (could be wrong) which is a problem above ground. Hence why we have bones.

prehensile tails work nicely... Now figure a creature with a dozen of those, each holding a superduper laser mega blaster...

[TeeGee]

No.

Aliens don't exist until they do.

It's not a good idea to accept that aliens are real due to the fact the universe is so massive and old. We don't even know how life on THIS planet started, so how can we generalize that instance to every other planet in the universe?

That's point number 1.

Point number 2: To believe in aliens requires the experience of said beings in an objective situation. In other words, I'll need to have seen them, touched them, heard them, etc. with multiple other humans next to me. The basic quality of corporeal life forms is that they can be objectively confirmed by multiple parties to actually exist.

IF someone claims aliens are NON corporeal entities, then yeah I'd admit it is absolutely possible they exist but I cannot confirm objectively they are real or not.

Until I see one with a group of people next to me to confirm what I am seeing or they happen to land on earth and allow themselves to be studied by us, I won't believe in them. Regardless of whatever Stephen Hawking or whomever phd says.

Point 3: If alien life (microbial or multicellular) exists out there in the vast universe, chances are we will NEVER run into each other in our species lifetime. That's like trying to find an electron in the universe, it's not going to happen no matter how hard we look. We'd have either become extinct due to some global cataclysm or died off from our sun evolving into a red giant. Our species days are numbered, we will not be around to see the end of our stars life much less evolve to a degree that allows us to travel the distances required to reach other stars.

It isn't within our species limited intelligence to master spaceflight to the degree required for off world colonization. We are too focused on money and cost and too narrow minded/stupid to invent interstellar engines that are capable of getting people from our solar system into another within a humans lifetime.

The human brain is very limited and dated computer. Yes it is the most powerful computer we are aware of, but in terms of limitations, it can never understand the universe, not completely.

[ZetaX]

Do you believe that there are atoms of cobalt at the earth's core¿ Because if I replace any occurence of alien life forms by cobalt and universe by earth, everything you say applies exactly the same way.

[vger]

Well now wouldn't that be irony. Not that we'd ever live long enough to prove it, but if it turned out that we were actually the only planet in the universe that contained life... heh.

With the amount of dice rolling that has gone on with the near infinite number of stars out there, it'd be sort of ironic if it was just us. The birth of life, an unrepeatable event, gives rise to a creature which states that if something can't be repeated, then it is likely false.

[NASAFanboy]

Well now wouldn't that be irony. Not that we'd ever live long enough to prove it, but if it turned out that we were actually the only planet in the universe that contained life... heh.

With the amount of dice rolling that has gone on with the near infinite number of stars out there, it'd be sort of ironic if it was just us. The birth of life, an unrepeatable event, gives rise to a creature which states that if something can't be repeated, then it is likely false.

My life is a lie

[phoenix_ca]

No.

Aliens don't exist until they do.

It's not a good idea to accept that aliens are real due to the fact the universe is so massive and old. We don't even know how life on THIS planet started, so how can we generalize that instance to every other planet in the universe?

That's point number 1.

Point number 2: To believe in aliens requires the experience of said beings in an objective situation. In other words, I'll need to have seen them, touched them, heard them, etc. with multiple other humans next to me. The basic quality of corporeal life forms is that they can be objectively confirmed by multiple parties to actually exist.

IF someone claims aliens are NON corporeal entities, then yeah I'd admit it is absolutely possible they exist but I cannot confirm objectively they are real or not.

Until I see one with a group of people next to me to confirm what I am seeing or they happen to land on earth and allow themselves to be studied by us, I won't believe in them. Regardless of whatever Stephen Hawking or whomever phd says.

Point 3: If alien life (microbial or multicellular) exists out there in the vast universe, chances are we will NEVER run into each other in our species lifetime. That's like trying to find an electron in the universe, it's not going to happen no matter how hard we look. We'd have either become extinct due to some global cataclysm or died off from our sun evolving into a red giant. Our species days are numbered, we will not be around to see the end of our stars life much less evolve to a degree that allows us to travel the distances required to reach other stars.

It isn't within our species limited intelligence to master spaceflight to the degree required for off world colonization. We are too focused on money and cost and too narrow minded/stupid to invent interstellar engines that are capable of getting people from our solar system into another within a humans lifetime.

The human brain is very limited and dated computer. Yes it is the most powerful computer we are aware of, but in terms of limitations, it can never understand the universe, not completely.

You argued against hasty generalization in your opening argument and then made your own hasty generalization based on the same premises. In effect, you argued against your own argument.

If it is a hasty generalization to say that life is common in the universe, on the basis that we do not yet understand how life came about on this planet, it is also a hasty generalization to conclude that this lack of evidence means that the formation of life is uncommon. In fact you're making an argument from silence here: "We do not know how life was formed, therefore it must be..."