Simple and fun life support model.

[Algiark]

Situation: Currently the stock game doesn't have any life support gameplay mechanics, and the available life support add-ons can be seen as a bit too advanced for a casual user who just wants a bit more realism without much calculation and planning (e.g. me).

Question: How do you make a life support gameplay mechanics that is simple, fun, yet doesn't stretch too far from reality?

Problems:

1. Multiple resources (food, water, and air) requiring different approaches to each.
   
2. 
   
3. Hard to know and visualize when and where the life support for the current vessel will run out.
   
4. 
   
5. Figuring out when to resupply, to orbital stations for example, is not cool. Especially when you're focusing on a year-long mission to Jool to do science on all the moons and suddenly your Eve station cries with only a day's worth of supply left. And I'm not gonna figure out myself when I should do a resupply mission.
   
6. 
   
7. In situ resource generation (a.k.a. farming) presented by life support mods are complicated, with their multi-level resource conversion (i.e. "mine this and process it to that, which can be combined with this to make that").
   
8. 
   

Proposed solutions:

1. Condense all life support into a single "life support" resource that will be drained as time goes by. Granted, it's not that realistic, but considering in many games, health loss from broken bones, stab wounds, debilitating disease, and deadly poison (which all affect the human body in very different ways) can be recovered by using the same recovery item, this seems realistic enough. (As the devs said, "Game first, simulation second.")
   
2. 
   
3. To visualize where the life support will run out, a marker can appear on the orbital path similar to apoapsis and periapsis, and when selected can display how much time left before you reach this point and how many revolutions (provided you are in a stable orbit) it will take before you reach it.
   
4. 
   
5. To make resupplying easier, you can use an automatic calendar interface. Specify a vessel to be resupplied, and the calendar will determine how often and when you should do resupply mission, with adjustable time to account for mission length. Example: supplies in Eve station runs out every 300 days. Getting to Eve takes 200 days. The calendar will remind you to fly to Eve 200 days in advance before the supplies run out, every 300 days. Now you don't have to worry about forgetting to feed those hungry stations! Also works for near-Kerbin stations.
   
6. 
   
7. To make farming simpler, get rid of multiple resources. When you land on the ground, you can start the farming process immediately, no fuss, no muss. As long as the farming module is active, it will restore life support to full. However, it will consume electricity, and the farther you are from the sun, the more electricity it will use (so there's still some planning to be done - bring those Gigantors when you're traveling beyond Dres). To help with this, an interface will help you with how much electricity the farming module will consume in each of the celestial bodies, so you can design your ship to suit your destination. Of course, to prevent newly formed space programs from abusing this technology from the get-go (rendering the previous solution moot), you must pass a certain point in career mode or unlock a node far in the tech tree to use it.
   

What do you think?

Edit: by "farming" I mean "using a greenhouse" way, not "go out in the field and plant crops" way (although it might be cool).

Edited June 30, 2014 by Algiark

[r4pt0r]

i love the idea of a life support outtage marker on the orbital path, but more useful might also be a halfway empty marker. ideally trips are 2 way.

id like parts that contain lifesupport reserves, similar in looks to rcs tanks

i dont like farming, but a greenhouse module might be nice(esp on stations). base its efficiency on the same metric panels use to determine sun power. i think that a greenhouse module should be forever able to generate snacks/air, but should be really heavy, to counteract it supplying essentially infinite lifesupport.

edit: i misunderstood your "farming" as farming, like planting corn on moho farming. some type of module we agree on.

Edited June 30, 2014 by r4pt0r

[Algiark]

Yes, by farming I meant using a greenhouse module. But I think farming infinitely should only be possible on the ground, to make a settlement on a planet a necessity. Otherwise it's just weird.

[Pthigrivi]

I actually really like this. I do think though it would be nice to have dedicated life-support canisters in different sizes. I'm guessing you'd still like life-support to deplete based on how many Kerbals are on board a specific vessel, and many vessels have multiple capsules. This matters when you're resupplying. Say you have a command module that stays in orbit and a lander module that will go down to the surface. When those sections disengage, how much life support goes with each capsule? And what if you want to send a single Kerbal to Jool? How much 'life support' can be loaded onto a single lander can? Does life support add weight? (I think it should). Having supply canisters might actually make things simpler to visualize and manage.

In general the game really needs a scheduling system, and this should just be part of it.

[Pthigrivi]

Also it would be my preference that greenhouse modules work in orbit. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't, and could add a lot for space stations. I hear you on incentivizing colonization, but my feeling is the best mechanic for this would be resource mining. If we're thinking of mining as being akin to mining off-world H20, it makes sense that you could generate both life support and LFO from it.

[Vindelle_Sunveam]

I misunderstood your "farming" as farming, like planting corn on moho farming.

Well, that close to Sol, you'd only have pop corn fields. I want to see that, with popped corn simulated using a particles model.

[Sky_walker]

Makes sense. I especially love an idea of AP and PE markers showing the amount of life support remaining.

I also love greenhouses as they actually give you a reason to bother with a base on another planet (along with all the fuel waste on descend/ascend).

obviously command module mk1 should have more than enough supplies to land on a Mun / minimus and make it back, but long term manned space stations would actually require some effort and in general this whole system would finally give people a reason to do unmanned space missions.... Which is great!

[Vaporo]

Maybe you could have two types of greenhouse modules: type one only works on the surface of a planet, and even then only if it's facing upwards towards the sun and in line with gravity (not on its side). Maybe it could be opened up to the atmosphere on Kerbin and Laythe, resulting in massively increased efficiency. If you open it in a 'dangerous' situation (such as re-entry or while in space) it will be damaged, resulting in either needing to be replanted or being permanently unrepairable (maybe depending on the level of damage). It would also have reduced efficiency the further gravity gets from Kerbin's gravity. Maybe it could also house Kerbals. It could be an interesting IVA.

The second type would be a centrifuge that simulates gravity while in low-gravity environments, allowing plant growth while in orbit. It would have all of the features of the planetside version (except maybe being openable), though is heavier, larger, maybe produces less life support, and requires an infintesimal amount electric charge to operate.

Unless you are using Electric charge to give light, both modules will "die" after not being exposed to the sun (or not being in any environment where they can grow) for a certain amount of time and need to be replanted.

Maybe both parts could only be unlocked after doing a particular type of experiment. There could be a plant growth experiment, available low on the tech tree, with an experiment that you must gather X amount of science from it in order to unlock the larger versions. (It would still give an infinitesimal amount of life support, but not enough to sustain even one Kerbal.)

Edited June 30, 2014 by Vaporo

[Javster]

Very good idea. Maybe a "Kerbal Health" of sorts?

[Sky_walker]

Maybe you could have two types of greenhouse modules: type one only works on the surface of a planet, and even then only if it's facing upwards towards the sun and in line with gravity (not on its side). Maybe it could be opened up to the atmosphere on Kerbin and Laythe, resulting in massively increased efficiency. If you open it in a 'dangerous' situation (such as re-entry or while in space) it will be damaged, resulting in either needing to be replanted or being permanently unrepairable (maybe depending on the level of damage). It would also have reduced efficiency the further gravity gets from Kerbin's gravity. Maybe it could also house Kerbals. It could be an interesting IVA.

The second type would be a centrifuge that simulates gravity while in low-gravity environments, allowing plant growth while in orbit. It would have all of the features of the planetside version (except maybe being openable), though is heavier, larger, maybe produces less life support, and requires an infintesimal amount electric charge to operate.

Unless you are using Electric charge to give light, both modules will "die" after not being exposed to the sun (or not being in any environment where they can grow) for a certain amount of time and need to be replanted.

Imho the only way to avoid using energy would be by sending your module to sun-synchronous orbit (read: plants are always exposed to the light) with at least one guy tending the plantation at all time.

Other than that - it should always use power, more when not exposed to the light. That assumes that a module has a glass celling - otherwise: it should consume same amount of power at all time.

Note that greenhouse is not only sun but also water circulation which needs to be powered. And in general - there should be crew attending it to gather the resources (read: no probes picking up food from the greenhouse and moving it between stations - it'd make your Kerbals feel desired on a space station and life supplies wouldn't feel like a cheap copy&paste of electricity. Of course gathering resources should happen only once per XX days (say: 21 days or so?) to avoid clickfest).

And a greenhouse in general should be large (XL-sized) and consume considerable amount of power along with taking time to produce the resources... also if it'd spend too much time in the dark it'd lower crops down to the point where they die out completely if kept in a shadow for too long (eg. over 72 in-game hours?). Finally - you'd need more than one greenhouse to fully supply one Kerbal in space with food for infinite amount of time. In general - unless you build a large infrastructure over few launches - greenhouses should supplement your kerbals, not be-all-end-all of the life support.

If we'll have a system that can be fully satisfied with just one module per Kerbal and 2 XL solar panels then we might just skip it all together as it'll be nothing else but a mild annoyance before you research the win-win greenhouses in campaign...

Very good idea. Maybe a "Kerbal Health" of sorts?

- Alive and well

- Starving

- Dead

- Burnt in the atmosphere

Edited June 30, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Vaporo]

Note that greenhouse is not only sun but also water circulation which needs to be powered.

Not necessarily. If there is gravity (or simulated gravity) and sunlight/heat, water would condense on the ceiling of the module and "rain" down on the plants.

And a greenhouse in general should be large (XL-sized)... greenhouses should supplement your kerbals

Only if you're using a small greenhouse. And, yes, greenhouses should be flat out enormous (except for the miniature one I mentioned), not to mention heavy. You would normally only use them on stations and bases.

also if it'd spend too much time in the dark it'd lower crops down to the point where they die out completely if kept in a shadow for too long (eg. over 72 in-game hours?

100 percent agreed.

Imho the only way to avoid using energy would be by sending your module to sun-synchronous orbit (read: plants are always exposed to the light) with at least one guy tending the plantation at all time.

Good use for storing a Kerbal in it. Also, I suppose that the modules could rotate like solar panels so that they are always exposed to the sun. Or could be cylindrical and are exposed to the sun from all directions.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Vaporo

[Kasuha]

I wonder why people keep calling this feature "life support". Kerbals have plenty of life support as is, they can last eons in their ships and suits.

All this feature brings to the game is Slow and Painful Deathâ„¢ due to lack of what the feature is usually called after.

While I understand some people like the challenge the "lack of life support" brings to the game, personally I rather enjoy the freedom of not having to care about it. Seeing that furthest Scott Manley sent his Kerbals in 70 episodes of his series is Duna and that he is waiting to finally uncover FTL technology to be able to send them further away I don't really think this feature is necessary.

[Pthigrivi]

I hear you, but constraints add structure. You could say the same about a tech tree or a budget. The need to support kerbals in space incentivizes building off-world, devising clever solutions, and adds dimension to the gameplay. I tend to think there are more pressing matters for the devs at the moment but Id love to see it in the final game.

[Rarity]

I haven't gone through the entire thread, but would "snacks" not be the perfect Kerbal all-in-one life support resource?

[Pthigrivi]

^Yes, it would

[Mr Shifty]

The [thread=61632]Better Than Starting Manned[/thread] mod has a rudimentary one-resource life-support mechanic. It's simple enough that it doesn't require huge amounts of game play infrastructure or micromanaging, but does add the necessity for more careful mission planning.

[Sky_walker]

I wonder why people keep calling this feature "life support". Kerbals have plenty of life support as is, they can last eons in their ships and suits.

Not eons: Infinite amount of time as there is no life support in the game at all.

All this feature brings to the game is Slow and Painful Deathâ„¢ due to lack of what the feature is usually called after.

So that's how you call every day of your life? Slow and Painful Deathâ„¢? Wow, it must suck.

Besides - you could just deliver stuff in a resupply crafts, think: HTV in Kerbal. More immersion, more realism, more gameplay opportunities.

While I understand some people like the challenge the "lack of life support" brings to the game, personally I rather enjoy the freedom of not having to care about it

As long as you stay in Kerbal system itself and don't plan on keeping your Kerbals in a space station for weeks or months (depending on what modules your station will have) - you won't be bothered by life support no matter what.

As said - life support is something that comes in play once you get into advanced stages of a gameplay.

Not necessarily. If there is gravity (or simulated gravity) and sunlight/heat, water would condense on the ceiling of the module and "rain" down on the plants.

(...)

Only if you're using a small greenhouse. And, yes, greenhouses should be flat out enormous (except for the miniature one I mentioned), not to mention heavy. You would normally only use them on stations and bases.

We're thinking about different scales For me greenhouse is something in a size of.... Kerbodyne S3-14400 Tank or Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank - I see you define that as "small", lol. Ok, what you're talking about makes perfect sense once you think about something really enormous, where XL-sized part is just a component of very large, domed greenhouse... but that would make it something extremely unique, as right now we don't have anything in the game that would require assembly on the orbit, not to mention the added difficulty of tracking stats for something of that size (AFAIK game right now has only a stats-per-item not a stats-per-multi-item-structure that is in fact only a sub-component of an even larger space station). But yea... I'd love to see stuff like that, it'd really add whole new world to the orbital construction.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Mr Shifty]

We're thinking about different scales For me greenhouse is something in a size of.... Kerbodyne S3-14400 Tank or Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank - I see you define that as "small", lol. Ok, what you're talking about makes perfect sense once you think about something really enormous, where XL-sized part is just a component of very large, domed greenhouse... but that would make it something extremely unique, as right now we don't have anything in the game that would require assembly on the orbit, not to mention the added difficulty of tracking stats for something of that size (AFAIK game right now has only a stats-per-item not a stats-per-multi-item-structure that is in fact only a sub-component of an even larger space station). But yea... I'd love to see stuff like that, it'd really add whole new world to the orbital construction.

The [thread=84106]Stanford Torus mod[/thread] is looking like one of those larger scale projects.

[Vanamonde]

You might want to look over mod offerings, but life support is on the What Not to Suggest List of items that have been talked to death on the forum, so we'll be closing the thread now.