It's in alpha, The fallback excuse

[SkyRender]

I sometimes think we've become spoiled by the modern development cycles. It wasn't that long ago that game developers didn't have feedback with their userbase at all until after a product was released, with only a very limited amount of feedback after release in the form of letters sent in. The only way they could really "fix" a game that was unpopular was to release a new game entirely. Game design back then was largely a combination of gambling and intuition for developers when trying to make something innovative. The fact that any game can be made the way Kerbal Space Program is being made, with each new release being guided by user input and the development cycle being revealed in any meaningful capacity to those users between updates, is still amazing to me. We live in a remarkable age; it seems shallow to complain that it's not more awe-inspiring.

[xrayfishx]

I don't get why everyone is saying that KSP has been in development for too long. CoD and Bf development times should not be the standard. Besides, nearly every other game out there has something they can look at for inspiration and/or they have a previous game they can take things from etc. However, KSP has to do everything from scratch. It is such an unique game that it can't look at other games for reference.

What I mean is that the developers of Watch_Dogs, for example, could have looked a GTA games to see how to make a nice open world and combat, CoD can use the same engine as the previous game, which the devs are already comfortable with, anyone looking to develop a racing game can look at LFS/NFS/Forza/others for mechanics, track designs, even optimization.

What could Squad look at for reference? Orbiter, perhaps. Maybe some other space games to get ideas for part designs and real life for specs. That's it. A game first of its kind will take a long time to develop. Especially considering that the devs knew only so much about programming when they started.

The game is still not released because there's a lot Squad wants to add before balancing, optimizing and debugging it all. The game is said to become scope-complete in a surprisingly short amount of time for a team so small and a game so unique.

[Akalaël]

How long did the development of Skyrim lasted ? And how many people were involved in the process ?

Not really comparing here the two games, but just want to give an idea.

3 years I guess for Skyrim, with a team that was used to make tose kind of games...

Can't you just let SQUAD time ?

[sal_vager]

Something else to bear in mind here, a game like Skyrim follows a well trodden path, it's a defined genre, RPG, adventure, fantasy, you know what a game like that is going to be like in advance, it's only the details that really change.

KSP doesn't have that background, okay there's Orbiter and Baris but they are very different to KSP, Squad doesn't have a defined genre to follow so are actually defining what a KSP style game is during development.

They can't say "it's a fantasy game, add more swords!", instead they say "it's a semi-realistic space game, but what makes it a semi-realistic space game?"

Sure there are a lot of other space games, but in most of them your craft flies like a WW2 plane or slides around like on ice.

[Rainbowtrout]

If I were a Dev, I wouldn't enjoy being rushed, for possibly the most game-changing update released. Bearing in mind, they were working with NASA, to create an update full of content, while developing .24. One does not simply turn down an offer to work with NASA, even if they haven't been doing much recently.

[Greenfire32]

In traditional terms:

Alpha) Game is being actively developed. Many features are still missing or broken. Development consists of adding new core features, mechanics, UI's, and bug fixing.

Beta) Game is being actively developed. All features are implemented and are mostly functional. Development consists of bug fixing.

Release) Game is no longer developed. All features are 100% functional. Development consists of minor updates and DLC.

If we go off the traditional Alpha-Beta-Release time frame, then KSP is VERY much still in alpha. However, KSP does not follow the traditional model (it's more like Minecraft). Even still, though, the fact that parts of the game are not yet implemented (contracts are coming, but they're not here yet) means that even if the game is 99% playable, it's still in Alpha.

"Alpha" and "Beta" are not determined by "how playable is this," but by "how complete is this."

[OtherDalfite]

While the devs may consider the game to be no longer part of the standard alpha/beta stages, the actual KSP community is completely blind to it. Trying to argue that it's not in alpha is like trying to tear down an obese, uneducated, pre-pubescent skyscraper with a sheet of paper. But that doesn't really make up for lack of development or more than half the KSP team being PR. Ever since the DLC-spaghetti spill, KSP just seems to have been in a state of decline, no doubt due to "development asymptotes.

[Javster]

While the devs may consider the game to be no longer part of the standard alpha/beta stages, the actual KSP community is completely blind to it. Trying to argue that it's not in alpha is like trying to tear down an obese, uneducated, pre-pubescent skyscraper with a sheet of paper. But that doesn't really make up for lack of development or more than half the KSP team being PR. Ever since the DLC-spaghetti spill, KSP just seems to have been in a state of decline, no doubt due to "development asymptotes.

That's true, thinking about it...

From the most recent dev notes:

One is still doing something with coding

One seems to handle website and billing

One describes the testing but we don't know if he's working on anything

One is making a video

One (I think) is testing

One is shamelessly playing the update and rubbing it in our faces. And moaning about the World Cup.

One is saying stuff about judging entries

One is testing

One seems to be sorting competition entries

One seems to be testing but not sure

One moans about the World Cup and talks about his laughs

One is finally direct, and says he has been bugfixing. Then he moans about the World Cup

It's hard to tell who's doing what TBH. How many bug testers are also programmers? How many of them are actually working on the game, and not the forums or whatever?

[Alguien]

Something else to bear in mind here, a game like Skyrim follows a well trodden path, it's a defined genre, RPG, adventure, fantasy, you know what a game like that is going to be like in advance, it's only the details that really change.

This sounds pretty irrelevant but i will keep reading

KSP doesn't have that background, okay there's Orbiter and Baris but they are very different to KSP, Squad doesn't have a defined genre to follow so are actually defining what a KSP style game is during development.

O̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶f̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶K̶S̶P̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶s̶

no, KSP doesn't have a 'defined genre' because it has multiple genres but they aren't exactly impossible to pinpoint and is pretty clear where the shots (or rockets if you will) are going, more exactly is a space flight simulator with management which while not very popular, are old genres

the only thing than makes KSP stand is the rocket building, but that isnt exactly a lot to making it a different genre

They can't say "it's a fantasy game, add more swords!", instead they say "it's a semi-realistic space game, but what makes it a semi-realistic space game?"

No, instead they say "It's a rocket building game! add more parts!"

also the 'realistic space game' is the use of newtonian physics as opposed to "plane physics"

Sure there are a lot of other space games, but in most of them your craft flies like a WW2 plane or slides around like on ice.

there is a reason space combat games is its own genre apart from flight simulators

[Tangle]

Puddin being a jerk? No problem, they're still in alpha.

[sal_vager]

Alguien, you hope to achieve what exactly?

Tangle, Puddin has stated in this thread that he does enjoy playing KSP, he's not knocking the game, so I would not describe him as being a "jerk" and I ask you to do the same please.

[Puddin]

@Ted

Thanks Ted for coming in and sharing the basic roadmap for the game with us. A basic layout of how the game is scoped for completion is all I really wanted to hear. It is also more than good to hear that it won't get stuck in a continuous development state. As I mentioned previously the readme that is getting released with the updates say that the game is still in alpha stages so if we are throwing that particular model out there should be something in it's place to refer to here in the forums. Hopefully get rid of the whole "it's in alpha" reply and generate some more useful feedback. Perhaps "scope realization" Not sure but it isn't necessarily a bad model by any means.

[cpast]

That's true, thinking about it...

From the most recent dev notes:

One is still doing something with coding

One seems to handle website and billing

One describes the testing but we don't know if he's working on anything

One is making a video

One (I think) is testing

One is shamelessly playing the update and rubbing it in our faces. And moaning about the World Cup.

One is saying stuff about judging entries

One is testing

One seems to be sorting competition entries

One seems to be testing but not sure

One moans about the World Cup and talks about his laughs

One is finally direct, and says he has been bugfixing. Then he moans about the World Cup

It's hard to tell who's doing what TBH. How many bug testers are also programmers? How many of them are actually working on the game, and not the forums or whatever?

Going through the list, and cross-referencing with the (admittedly outdated, still lists C7 as active) "meet the team", here's my guess on what people's roles have been:

HarvesteR: Developer.

Alex: seems to be in charge of running Squad's servers, keeping all their services up.

Mu: Developer; "bug fixing" implies he's doing development tasks.

Daniel: Working on making videos (his job is not active game development)

Jim: UI dev (again, "bug fixing" = he's not just testing; also, he mentions systems he implemented)

Maxmaps: Not a dev, he's PR

Calisker: ditto, he's PR

Ted: QA lead; he's not so much directly testing as running the testing, collecting feedback, etc. - still falls under "working on the game itself"

Rowsdowser: Not a dev; he's in charge of community issues

Eduardo: Project manager, in charge of coordinating everything, making sure everyone knows what they need to be doing and checking in on their progress

Rogelio: Appears to be a similar job to danRosas, making videos

Hugo: Also doing development work

Devnotes are generally what team members have personally been doing; if someone says "this week has been all about bug fixing", they mean "I personally have been squashing bugs this week".

Count: 5 actively working on the game itself, 1 project manager (not directly working on the game, but still a critical position to try to get things done in reasonable time), 1 server admin, 5 PR-y tasks (working on video + the actual PR guys + Rowsdowser). We get a mention of a Marco as well (in Ted's devnote), who the main site says is another programmer, so 6 directly working on game, 1 server admin, 5 community/PR, 1 project manager.

I don't think Squad permanently employs any people who just test for bugs - actual testing is done mainly by volunteers, and Squad employees who are testing are generally doing that plus actual development, or are doing that plus media team stuff. You can tell from the devnote which it is.

[ArmchairGravy]

No' date=' instead they say "It's a rocket building game! add more parts!"

also the 'realistic space game' is the use of newtonian physics as opposed to "plane physics"[/quote']

I feel that the stock parts are adequate. Why should the devs spend time on parts when the modding community has more than met that need? I do consider the modding community as an integral part of the KSP experience. If you don't want to use mods, fine, but please don't ask for the devs to spend development time implementing something a mod already covers. When the game reaches Scope Complete, then is the time to address what you may consider missing.

Also, if you can write a program to handle N-body mechanics then please by all means also submit your Nobel application. Here's some light reading on the matter. Patched conics are a decent compromise.

Edited July 7, 2014 by ArmchairGravy
Spelling

[Tuareg]

actually all the fanboys are wrong. squad IS obliged to finish this game as they are selling it with these words /from steam store/:

"What the developers have to say:

“KSP is still under development. This means the game will be improved on a regular basis, through updates that add new features, content and bug fixes"

if the game will not be finished and the bugs fixed, the above advertisement is misleading and in the UK (i guess in other countries too) its a criminal offense

X:Rebirth taught me to don't pre-order, KSP taught me to don't buy early access. I'm an old sw dev and the quality and pace they can show up is below any expectation. far below...

KSP is not a game in development, its a business built on a beautiful promise but it will never be finished... they will get as much money as they can and when the sales will drop below a level they will abandon it.

[Jouni]

actually all the fanboys are wrong. squad IS obliged to finish this game as they are selling it with these words /from steam store/:

"What the developers have to say:

“KSP is still under development. This means the game will be improved on a regular basis, through updates that add new features, content and bug fixes"

if the game will not be finished and the bugs fixed, the above advertisement is misleading and in the UK (i guess in other countries too) its a criminal offense

The way customer protection laws work in the EU, the developer isn't really responsible for anything, unless you bought the game directly from them. If you bought the game from Steam, then it's Valve's responsibility to deliver whatever they promised to deliver.

Misleading advertising is of course another matter. Most of the time, it will only result in an official saying "This is misleading. Please stop doing it."

[Psycix]

Although I am happy with the way KSP is progressing, I too think too much feedback is blindly shot down 'because alpha' or 'because WIP'. This goes for many other games as well, not just KSP.

From the indie-age we crossed over to the alpha-age, where every game we play is unfinished for some reason. Actually, multiple games I own and play are still in alpha while I only play a handful of 'finished' games. In every community I see the same attitude of "it's an alpha, therefor you have no right to complain"

Unless a feature is explicity announced (read: promised) by the devs and estimated for completion within an expected timeframe, telling someone to wait for whatever they are complaining about (read: giving valid feedback) is not always justified. People have the right to give feedback or complain about the product they purchased.

[MockKnizzle]

actually all the fanboys are wrong. squad IS obliged to finish this game as they are selling it with these words /from steam store/:

"What the developers have to say:

“KSP is still under development. This means the game will be improved on a regular basis, through updates that add new features, content and bug fixes"

if the game will not be finished and the bugs fixed, the above advertisement is misleading and in the UK (i guess in other countries too) its a criminal offense

X:Rebirth taught me to don't pre-order, KSP taught me to don't buy early access. I'm an old sw dev and the quality and pace they can show up is below any expectation. far below...

KSP is not a game in development, its a business built on a beautiful promise but it will never be finished... they will get as much money as they can and when the sales will drop below a level they will abandon it.

Ummm, do you actually see the words you just typed? Does the word "finished" or "completed" appear anywhere in that sentence? I will refer you to the terms of service:

Please keep in mind:

Squad is not under any obligation to release any updates, expansions or titles at any time. Each release may very well be the last one.

Squad is under no obligation to implement any given set of features prior to the final release for KSP or any future title. All posted lists of planned features are unofficial and do not imply a promise by Squad to deliver anything listed in them.

Saying that the game is in development and is being worked on is a factual description of the state of the game. Regardless of what you personally feel entitled to, it is not a promise of completion. If you still insist on your silly and incorrect interpretation, you're by all means free to try and file a lawsuit that will most definitely fail due the previously mentioned terms of service.

[Rowsdower]

I don't think Squad permanently employs any people who just test for bugs - actual testing is done mainly by volunteers, and Squad employees who are testing are generally doing that plus actual development, or are doing that plus media team stuff. You can tell from the devnote which it is.

In regards to your post, first off, it's worth mentioning that while there are definitely those of us on the team who don't work on game development, all of the work that we do helps the game go-round. On the topic of testing, outside of Squad employees, it's done on a volunteer basis

KSP is not a game in development, its a business built on a beautiful promise but it will never be finished... they will get as much money as they can and when the sales will drop below a level they will abandon it.

KSP is an early access game. It's a game that, while highly playable, is still under ongoing development and we've not hidden that fact. Right now, the goal is to get to a point of scope completion. With this, please remember that as HarvesteR said, scope complete doesn't mean we'll be done with the game. There's no taking the money and running. If there was, I'd be left behind. I'm a terrible runner.

In every community I see the same attitude of "it's an alpha, therefor you have no right to complain"

I'm just pointing this out to say that from our end, that shouldn't be the case. Yes, it should be kept in mind that there is still development going on and there are still changes being made. At the same time, the team always has room to fine tune other areas. Constructive criticism is most certainly welcome. There's room for a healthy mix of opinions on the forum, but it must be understood that the game's still changing, that our own procedures are still changing and that the game is growing, with the community right along with it. There's always room for improvement, but for that to happen, the feedback must be constructive, no matter what side of the fence the opinion is on.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Rowsdower

[sal_vager]

Tuareg, no, you are wrong, if Squad claimed KSP was something other than what it is then that would be misleading their customers, Squad are clear that the game is in development.

Some of you seem to want Squad to crash and burn just to satisfy your own egos.

[Tuareg]

Tuareg, no, you are wrong, if Squad claimed KSP was something other than what it is then that would be misleading their customers, Squad are clear that the game is in development.

Some of you seem to want Squad to crash and burn just to satisfy your own egos.

you really think this or just copy/paste the official self-defense text?

I've bought a game which had a promise I'd like to see. Sadly it's exactly the same as a year ago. same bugs, same performance problems same content...

[sal_vager]

There have been updates in that time, so no, you're still wrong, please look at that UK law more closely as such things are not to be taken lightly.

0.24 is coming soon as well, to claim that KSP is exactly the same as a year ago is pretty disingenuous to say the least.

[Ippo]

Sadly it's exactly the same as a year ago. same bugs, same performance problems same content...

No: stop right here, because no. I bought this game in january, and in 7 months it has already received two big updates: ARM and the upcoming 0.24.

I haven't been here for the first years and I don't care one bit how slow they have been in the past, but you can't even begin saying they haven't been upgrading the game with new content. That's a blatant lie, period.

Also: you bought a game and agreed to terms that basically boil down to "Hey, we might never actually finish this game, are you ok with that?". So now it's your problem if you feel your "investment" wasn't wise.

[Torquemadus]

I've been a lurker on this forum for over a year. I'm now at 1050 hours played on Steam. That's a heck of a lot of hours for a game that isn't finished yet.

Just when I start to get bored, just when I start to cast around for other games to play instead...Squad release a new update to feed my addiction. Long may they continue to do so.

[razark]

Sadly it's exactly the same as a year ago. same bugs, same performance problems same content...

Well, there's your problem. You actually have to download the updates.