[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[passinglurker]

Does particle collection not work over Duna? The air is still just as thin that high up as anywhere else and there are only so many planets with an atmosphere it would seem a shame to omit any.

[nli2work]

the ka stack engine spawns on the launchpad with engines already activated

yeah, same here. That's an odd one. Never seen that before. Will look into the engines tomorrow. Need some sleep now.

[RoverDude]

Oh no firespitter is installed. Unless the 7.x dev DLL has been updated since 7/26. Going through my mod download archive now (everything is dated when it was pulled so shouldn't be too difficult to find; unless I flubbed and read something that wasn't there; in which case something rather drastic changed between two versions that's causing a massive massive performance hit which seems odd).

EDIT: Found it. Your 0.0.5 dev release of this. Also just tried the 07/27 release of the unofficial KSPI's ORS dll (believe that's the official ORS release that's packaged with it [though I have the official one also]) and it works like a dog.

If you no longer have it I can zip it up and put it on my dropbox if you want to decompile / do a differential check to see what changed between it and the newest one you compiled against.

My system is really hefty and can run just about anything I can throw at it; so to see that kind of performance difference is rather brutal.

That's old and breaks KSP-I. You should completely delete out UmbraSpceIndustries and ORS and install from the current ZIP.

soo like this??

MODULE

{

name = FSengineSounds

engage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Start

disengage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Stop

flameout = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Stop

power = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Running

Yup

That explains the sounds at least. Simple fixes are always a bonus. I edited my last post. 0.0.5 of Karbonite had the 1.1.1.0 version of the ORS DLL. It may just be a versioning error but with the difference in performance I'm not so sure.

See above - don't use old versions, and you need to delete the folder not overwrite it or you will have sadness.

the ka stack engine spawns on the launchpad with engines already activated

I'll check that one now. May have missed one.

Does particle collection not work over Duna? The air is still just as thin that high up as anywhere else and there are only so many planets with an atmosphere it would seem a shame to omit any.

Particle collection works over Jool, Laythe, and Kerbin. But it's a pretty easy config change if you want to add others. For now I'm looking to have some variety in what bits are where.

Edited August 2, 2014 by RoverDude

[RoverDude]

Oh! Yeah the part activate bit is related to how we handle the ScoopedAir resource as well as dynamic velocity (the thicker the atmosphere and the faster you're going the more air you get).

So that's why it activated There's a flag I use for engines that basically keeps it shut off till ignition, whereas the various scoops aren't activated by staging.

Edited August 2, 2014 by RoverDude

[BrutalRIP]

soo like this??

MODULE

{

name = FSengineSounds

engage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Start

disengage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Stop

flameout = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Stop

power = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Running

and this didnt work either

[passinglurker]

Yeah personally I'll be turning on particle collection, atmospheric scooping, and ocean filtering on all planets with atmospheres and oceans. Part of what I didn't like about interstellar is parts that are only useful on one planet.(looking at you aluminum hybrid rocket)

EDIT: Basically for parts to occupy a space in my part catalog they have to pull their own weight.

Edited August 2, 2014 by passinglurker

[Reign Of Magic]

Hey all,

Updated the Generator again with some guidance from everyone's feedback & Nil2Work. Textures altered again, I think they are better?

New Highlight for this version: Replaced flat button with a lever that animates!

Keep the feedback coming. I am thoroughly enjoying learning more about blender/texturing!

Dropbox DL: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzmhv2sgnxonqeq/DerpShield%20MK3.rar

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[RoverDude]

Oh no firespitter is installed. Unless the 7.x dev DLL has been updated since 7/26. Going through my mod download archive now (everything is dated when it was pulled so shouldn't be too difficult to find; unless I flubbed and read something that wasn't there; in which case something rather drastic changed between two versions that's causing a massive massive performance hit which seems odd).

EDIT: Found it. Your 0.0.5 dev release of this. Also just tried the 07/27 release of the unofficial KSPI's ORS dll (believe that's the official ORS release that's packaged with it [though I have the official one also]) and it works like a dog.

If you no longer have it I can zip it up and put it on my dropbox if you want to decompile / do a differential check to see what changed between it and the newest one you compiled against.

My system is really hefty and can run just about anything I can throw at it; so to see that kind of performance difference is rather brutal.

soo like this??

MODULE

{

name = FSengineSounds

engage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Start

disengage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Stop

flameout = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Stop

power = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/propFan/KaPropFan_Running

That explains the sounds at least. Simple fixes are always a bonus. I edited my last post. 0.0.5 of Karbonite had the 1.1.1.0 version of the ORS DLL. It may just be a versioning error but with the difference in performance I'm not so sure.

the ka stack engine spawns on the launchpad with engines already activated

Does particle collection not work over Duna? The air is still just as thin that high up as anywhere else and there are only so many planets with an atmosphere it would seem a shame to omit any.

and this didnt work either

Case sensitive - fixed in the next patch, but use this:

engage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/PropFan/KaPropFan_Start

disengage = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/PropFan/KaPropFan_Stop

flameout = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/PropFan/KaPropFan_Stop

power = UmbraSpaceIndustries/Karbonite/Parts/PropFan/KaPropFan_Running

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah personally I'll be turning on particle collection, atmospheric scooping, and ocean filtering on all planets with atmospheres and oceans. Part of what I didn't like about interstellar is parts that are only useful on one planet.(looking at you aluminum hybrid rocket)

EDIT: Basically for parts to occupy a space in my part catalog they have to pull their own weight.

Best bit is you can always release your own config pack, too

[Shad0wCatcher]

Yea I definitely see what you mean about that version breaking KSPI. I don't understand the performance difference between the versions though (and I don't have a decompiler to take the dlls apart to find out installed):/ And I know very much about versioning sadness. Had that for about three hours trying to figure out what was causing the massive performance loss I was experiencing. That's why I'm here now. With the very latest ORS dll (only DLL installed; as that was how I found the problem I'm experiencing in the first place) I'm not exaggerating I'm getting around 2-3 FPS in the flight scene. As soon as I replace that DLL with the 0.0.5 release version I get 60. Is that something that you dropped in the code that's affecting only KSPI? Or did it basically break ORS entirely and that's where the performance difference lies? I ask because I haven't tested whether or not resource extraction work(s)(ed) at all as I haven't gotten far enough along to get anything set up on another planet. Hell before I posted here when I saw 0.0.8 released I literally just finished getting the game running at playable framerates and came here specifically to ask this. I just got sidetracked fast-tracking the bugs with the new release for a minute.

[RoverDude]

Yea I definitely see what you mean about that version breaking KSPI. I don't understand the performance difference between the versions though (and I don't have a decompiler to take the dlls apart to find out installed):/ And I know very much about versioning sadness. Had that for about three hours trying to figure out what was causing the massive performance loss I was experiencing. That's why I'm here now. With the very latest ORS dll (only DLL installed; as that was how I found the problem I'm experiencing in the first place) I'm not exaggerating I'm getting around 2-3 FPS in the flight scene. As soon as I replace that DLL with the 0.0.5 release version I get 60. Is that something that you dropped in the code that's affecting only KSPI? Or did it basically break ORS entirely and that's where the performance difference lies? I ask because I haven't tested whether or not resource extraction work(s)(ed) at all as I haven't gotten far enough along to get anything set up on another planet. Hell before I posted here when I saw 0.0.8 released I literally just finished getting the game running at playable framerates and came here specifically to ask this. I just got sidetracked fast-tracking the bugs with the new release for a minute.

Stock ORS / KSPI is broke right now. Broke bad. You're probably getting log spam.

I use exactly the same DLL as the KSPI Experimentals right now.

[Shad0wCatcher]

.....If this is working I'd hate to see broken. I have the KSPI Experimental dated 7/28 installed and with this ORS installed (the game is running right now and my fusion test jet I was using to experiment is currently slide-showing its way down the runway) I'm sitting at approx 1.5-2.5 FPS. That's why I was asking about the 0.0.5 dev release of this with the broken DLL that kills KSPI. With that DLL installed and breaking the experimental KSPI build the game runs smoothly at 58-62 FPS.

EDIT: Correction; I downloaded it on 7/28; the build itself is dated 7/27. EDIT 2: For clarification ORS currently in use causing massive framerate loss is from dev release of this 0.0.8

Edited August 2, 2014 by Shad0wCatcher

[Phers]

would it be possible to use the Scoop as a Buzzard Ram Scoop? using in to collect Karbonite particles during planetary transfers?

Edit.

Perhaps give it 2 modes.. Atmospheric and Vacuum mode.

[Shad0wCatcher]

Bussard style scoop you mean? I believe the exoatmospheric one functions just as that; but has a height limitation.

[Wren]

Okay, So I sent a craft up to the Mun to test, got there, and landed, the only option was 'start karbonite extraction' so I did, and it puts karbonite in my tanks, but the drills don't deploy.

[passinglurker]

would it be possible to use the Scoop as a Buzzard Ram Scoop? using in to collect Karbonite particles during planetary transfers?

Edit.

Perhaps give it 2 modes.. Atmospheric and Vacuum mode.

coding wise I have no idea. if you are looking for real world examples unless you have a ship propelled by what are basically nuclear explosions like in the original Bussard ram scoop concept the "drag" from solar flux deflecting off the magnetic field needed for such a scoop would cancel out the delta V from the fuel you'd collect. when physicists realised this they flipped the concept around and called it the magnet sail and like solar sail it can be used to push you around the solar system really slowly but with no propellant assuming you can see the sun.

Edited August 2, 2014 by passinglurker

[Phers]

What are the restrictions on the ram scoop.. what altitude does its start to work around kerbin?

[J&A Show]

I have tired to scan for Karbonite and I dont have anything pop up or show me where its located what am I doing wrong?

[Wren]

70K meters I think?

[Phers]

and if i wanted to change that to 100k?

I just can't get this scoop to work. has anyone else had any luck?

Edit.

Ok I've done extensive testing with this module from ground all the way up to 500k and can confirm i can never get it so produce Karbonite

may have something to do with the fact that once deployed the GUI only says disable collector, toggle resource and retract extractor? if i click disable collector nothing happens and the button doesn't change to enable extractor?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Phers

[Wren]

You have to toggle resource, it starts on nitrogen first or something.

[Phers]

You have to toggle resource, it starts on nitrogen first or something.

yip toggled to Karbonite... still can't get it to work.

[Remi]

I have been testing the engines today.

Great work on the models and animations. The way the change colour as well. Fantastic.

I have been running into some issues with their use though. Mainly concerning the "scooped air" resource.

For the prop-fan the scoped air resource starts to drop around 12km. Which for this engine type might seem reasonable. The problem is the tailoff of the resource is so abrupt you often don't have chance to react. It almost seems you go from full resource to none in the space of a couple of hundred metres. Very easy to end up in a flat spin due to flameout.

For the jet engine the scoped air resource seems to run out at around 8km high. So lower than the prop-fan. It does not allow you to get up to any sort of reasonable speed for a jet engine. Again the tailoff in resource seems way too abrupt. Ending up in a flat spin is very easy. I would say an increase in height for this engine makes sense. With a more forgiving gradient as well, like for the prop-fan.

It has been a while since I played with jet engines, so I am going to run some comparisons with the stock engines to see how they behave.

---

I just ran a comparison test using a basic jet engine, a radial body, and a basic air inlet, to represent a single Karbonite jet.

So using two of these on the same plane in place of the two Karbonite jets I found:

Basic jet has half the mass, but much lower thrust. Karbonite jet maintains better TWR. But basic jet has twice the specific impulse.

In actual use, I find intake air resource starts to run out at around 7km in this case. So slightly lower than for the scooped air resource. However intake air reduction gradient was such that I could happily fly to 15km and run level at that height. This meant that although the Karbonite jet has much better thrust, the final top speed of the plane is more or less the same. Because the basic jet can take advantage of much thinner air at 15km, rather than 8km.

The Karbonite jet was much faster to get to top speed of course.

So based on all this, my humble recommendation would be to increase the height that the Karbonite jet engine starts to lose scoped air resource a little bit. But the main thing would be to massively increase the gradient of resource loss relative to height.

I intend to try a comparison with turbojets and maybe some firespitter props later on.

By the way is the "scooped air" resource similar to the "intake atmosphere" resource that KSP-I uses?

Edited August 2, 2014 by diomedea
merged consecutive posts

[JewelShisen]

Alright so I just wanted to pop over here after a poster mentioned this mod over in my own thread.

The poster mentioned that they would like it if I could make some form of Station Keeping part that could be used for an Arial Base on Jool using HooliganLabs. I'm planning to start diving into the airship code soon and see what I can make of it and learn from it and once I do that I will be taking a look into making a new part that will, ONLY under certain conditions, allow a ship to lock into stationary position while in mid air by faking the system into thinking it is landed. I am making no promises of this coming to anything or working in the least but I will at least look into it.

[nli2work]

http://www./download/gzrltot812ealfp/KaJetsRepack.zip

Here's a repack of the 3 Jet engines, should save about 10 megs of texture. and audio for Prop Fan should work now.

Adjusted the Velocity curves, Max thrust, mass, and ISP some to make them closer to Squad engines. General feel should still be the same, Much-Louder-Faster-LessEfficient. added initial Tech Tree placement at same node as stock basic jet engine, and initial entry/part costs.

Prop-Fan - most efficient, lowest thrust, optimum speed of 325m/s

Turbofan Radial - middle ground efficiency, thrust, optimum speed 800m/s

Inline Turbofan - least efficient, highest thrust, optimum speed 1000m/s

[RoverDude]

Okay, So I sent a craft up to the Mun to test, got there, and landed, the only option was 'start karbonite extraction' so I did, and it puts karbonite in my tanks, but the drills don't deploy.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/Wrenpheonix/KSP%20-%20Kerbonite%20Testing/screenshot8_zpse612540b.png

hrm let me see what I can do to repro this - this one is one of those nagging ones that a couple of folks get yet I cannot

coding wise I have no idea. if you are looking for real world examples unless you have a ship propelled by what are basically nuclear explosions like in the original Bussard ram scoop concept the "drag" from solar flux deflecting off the magnetic field needed for such a scoop would cancel out the delta V from the fuel you'd collect. when physicists realised this they flipped the concept around and called it the magnet sail and like solar sail it can be used to push you around the solar system really slowly but with no propellant assuming you can see the sun.

Out of scope for this project for now - tbh, at that altitude you would get too little Karbonite for it to be useful.

What are the restrictions on the ram scoop.. what altitude does its start to work around kerbin?

If you are using the particle collector (this is important) - i.e. the one where the four big blades fan outwards like a giant air brake - it works at 100% - 110% of the max atmo. So for Kerbin it is a narrow band of 70K-77K (approx). By design - this is just atmosphere skimming so folks can gather Karbonite on rails.

I have tired to scan for Karbonite and I dont have anything pop up or show me where its located what am I doing wrong?

Do you have the antenna to show you deposits? It's under science (and there's a new, prettier model coming).

70K meters I think?

Correct

and if i wanted to change that to 100k?

I just can't get this scoop to work. has anyone else had any luck?

Edit.

Ok I've done extensive testing with this module from ground all the way up to 500k and can confirm i can never get it so produce Karbonite

may have something to do with the fact that once deployed the GUI only says disable collector, toggle resource and retract extractor? if i click disable collector nothing happens and the button doesn't change to enable extractor?

You have to toggle resource, it starts on nitrogen first or something.

yip toggled to Karbonite... still can't get it to work.

You want the extractor deployed, the collector enabled, and odds are since Kerbin is so karbonite poor, you are looking at miniscule amounts. No way to change the altitude, but you can change the rate in the configs. Higher = more.

This is mostly a Jool thing tbh because even there it's pretty scarce outside of the atmosphere (i.e. it makes no sense for there to be more Karbonite out of the atmosphere than in it...

I have been testing the engines today.

Great work on the models and animations. The way the change colour as well. Fantastic.

I have been running into some issues with their use though. Mainly concerning the "scooped air" resource.

For the prop-fan the scoped air resource starts to drop around 12km. Which for this engine type might seem reasonable. The problem is the tailoff of the resource is so abrupt you often don't have chance to react. It almost seems you go from full resource to none in the space of a couple of hundred metres. Very easy to end up in a flat spin due to flameout.

For the jet engine the scoped air resource seems to run out at around 8km high. So lower than the prop-fan. It does not allow you to get up to any sort of reasonable speed for a jet engine. Again the tailoff in resource seems way too abrupt. Ending up in a flat spin is very easy. I would say an increase in height for this engine makes sense. With a more forgiving gradient as well, like for the prop-fan.

It has been a while since I played with jet engines, so I am going to run some comparisons with the stock engines to see how they behave.

---

I just ran a comparison test using a basic jet engine, a radial body, and a basic air inlet, to represent a single Karbonite jet.

So using two of these on the same plane in place of the two Karbonite jets I found:

Basic jet has half the mass, but much lower thrust. Karbonite jet maintains better TWR. But basic jet has twice the specific impulse.

In actual use, I find intake air resource starts to run out at around 7km in this case. So slightly lower than for the scooped air resource. However intake air reduction gradient was such that I could happily fly to 15km and run level at that height. This meant that although the Karbonite jet has much better thrust, the final top speed of the plane is more or less the same. Because the basic jet can take advantage of much thinner air at 15km, rather than 8km.

The Karbonite jet was much faster to get to top speed of course.

So based on all this, my humble recommendation would be to increase the height that the Karbonite jet engine starts to lose scoped air resource a little bit. But the main thing would be to massively increase the gradient of resource loss relative to height.

I intend to try a comparison with turbojets and maybe some firespitter props later on.

By the way is the "scooped air" resource similar to the "intake atmosphere" resource that KSP-I uses?

Scooped air is similar to intake atmosphere of KSPI. And looks like there's a patch on engines

Alright so I just wanted to pop over here after a poster mentioned this mod over in my own thread.

The poster mentioned that they would like it if I could make some form of Station Keeping part that could be used for an Arial Base on Jool using HooliganLabs. I'm planning to start diving into the airship code soon and see what I can make of it and learn from it and once I do that I will be taking a look into making a new part that will, ONLY under certain conditions, allow a ship to lock into stationary position while in mid air by faking the system into thinking it is landed. I am making no promises of this coming to anything or working in the least but I will at least look into it.

Excellent, ping me if you need any assistance - I appreciate it!!

http://www./download/gzrltot812ealfp/KaJetsRepack.zip

Here's a repack of the 3 Jet engines, should save about 10 megs of texture. and audio for Prop Fan should work now.

Adjusted the Velocity curves, Max thrust, mass, and ISP some to make them closer to Squad engines. General feel should still be the same, Much-Louder-Faster-LessEfficient. added initial Tech Tree placement at same node as stock basic jet engine, and initial entry/part costs.

Prop-Fan - most efficient, lowest thrust, optimum speed of 325m/s

Turbofan Radial - middle ground efficiency, thrust, optimum speed 800m/s

Inline Turbofan - least efficient, highest thrust, optimum speed 1000m/s

Thanks!!

Side note - I'll see how you have set these up, and modify the next patch accordingly, using the MKS/OKS pattern of a parts folder and an assets folder (should make things a lot easier for sharing textures).