[24.2] Karbonite Ongoing Dev and Discussion

[Donziboy2]

Or using ORS place it in hard to reach locations, like the side of a mountain? That way you would use a rover to mine it then move the rover to a safer place for the Freighter to pick up the goods.

[Akira_R]

is it possible to make it detectable only from the surface, or very close to the surface, like less than 1km altitude? this way we can give rovers and ground vehicles another role to play. a planet might have half a dozen spots (same locations as normal hot spots), but can't tell from orbit. is this possible with ORS? SCANSat has a mechanism like this for anomaly signals. If ORS can't handle it, maybe SCANSat can.

Or using ORS place it in hard to reach locations, like the side of a mountain? That way you would use a rover to mine it then move the rover to a safer place for the Freighter to pick up the goods.

These are both GENIOUS ideas!!!!

[rabidninjawombat]

is it possible to make it detectable only from the surface, or very close to the surface, like less than 1km altitude? this way we can give rovers and ground vehicles another role to play. a planet might have half a dozen spots (same locations as normal hot spots), but can't tell from orbit. is this possible with ORS? SCANSat has a mechanism like this for anomaly signals. If ORS can't handle it, maybe SCANSat can.

I was under the impression that with ORS, that a resource was everywhere (on whatever planents you set them on) just at different concentrations.

Or am i wrong and is there a way to set zones that have 0.0ppm? (I hope im wrong, cause i was looking at creating a resource myself )

[nli2work]

I was under the impression that with ORS, that a resource was everywhere (on whatever planents you set them on) just at different concentrations.

Or am i wrong and is there a way to set zones that have 0.0ppm? (I hope im wrong, cause i was looking at creating a resource myself )

I don't think the concentration is a problem. Maybe set the ppm so low, and the extraction rate so slow, that it's simply not worth it to mine the stuff at a particular location. Or set a minimum abundance thresh hold for that extractor, eg you extract 0 Karberoid at any location under 5% abundance. so it's possible to get to a planet and not find any super Karbonite stuff at all. Given the rarity of the stuff, a set of specialized equipment is required I presume.

[passinglurker]

I don't think the concentration is a problem. Maybe set the ppm so low, and the extraction rate so slow, that it's simply not worth it to mine the stuff at a particular location. Or set a minimum abundance thresh hold for that extractor, eg you extract 0 Karberoid at any location under 5% abundance. so it's possible to get to a planet and not find any super Karbonite stuff at all. Given the rarity of the stuff, a set of specialized equipment is required I presume.

that would also balance big drills vs. small drills+timewarp when it comes to plain karbonite. The big drills could extract from virtually anywhere with no threshold whereas small drills need to be over spots with higher concentrations to meet their threshold requirement to work necessitating rovers or more accurate piloting on landing(or just spamming lots of little landers with the weight savings which would also be cool).

wasn't there a feature planned where wildcatting and prospecting on the surface could alter the ors resource map and discover/generate a new hot spot?

Edited August 23, 2014 by passinglurker

[RoverDude]

These are both GENIOUS ideas!!!!

I concur.. I think I wull use both of them

I was under the impression that with ORS, that a resource was everywhere (on whatever planents you set them on) just at different concentrations.

Or am i wrong and is there a way to set zones that have 0.0ppm? (I hope im wrong, cause i was looking at creating a resource myself )

I *think* if we use linear vs logorithmic then we can get true zero. But it is not as pretty visually. But if we're saying Karbonium (the working resource I have in FTT) is super rare anyway and not scannable, then we're golden

I don't think the concentration is a problem. Maybe set the ppm so low, and the extraction rate so slow, that it's simply not worth it to mine the stuff at a particular location. Or set a minimum abundance thresh hold for that extractor, eg you extract 0 Karberoid at any location under 5% abundance. so it's possible to get to a planet and not find any super Karbonite stuff at all. Given the rarity of the stuff, a set of specialized equipment is required I presume.

That's actually not a bad general tweak for ORS anyway - some kind of configurable threshold value.

that would also balance big drills vs. small drills+timewarp when it comes to plain karbonite. The big drills could extract from virtually anywhere with no threshold whereas small drills need to be over spots with higher concentrations to meet their threshold requirement to work necessitating rovers or more accurate piloting on landing(or just spamming lots of little landers with the weight savings which would also be cool).

wasn't there a feature planned where wildcatting and prospecting on the surface could alter the ors resource map and discover/generate a new hot spot?

Yep, there was/still is. I need to see how dynamic maps in ORS play out and how they are loaded in.

[GeoPhizzix]

should be available soon, the configs look pretty straight forward. just need to finish up the animations and get them exported.

any ideas for 1 more piece? feels like something is missing. I could do a purely decorative tool rack type of thing... but not coming up with any ideas for a functional piece.

Maybe a KAS Container, or maybe a Toolbox for Mission Controller 2s Repair Can.

[corvustech]

small rover sized bits; 0.625m cube for size ref. small fuel jug; portaGen; and surface mounted drill for all your Ka camping trips

http://i.imgur.com/3LHnlP2.png

What about a small light source? A tiny superbright strobe or mounted electric torch would be handy. Or even a rotating construction/alert style bulb

[RoverDude]

@nli2work - what about our surface-only detector? That's the missing piece it looks like we need, esp. since I want to go with a resource only detectable on the surface.

[Prime flux]

What about a small light source? A tiny superbright strobe or mounted electric torch would be handy. Or even a rotating construction/alert style bulb

How about a constuction lighting tripod? like

?

The frame from the power generator could be utilised as packing frame, ground/base frame and the lighting head extends upwards and have 3-4 lights aimed for 360deg coverage.

Another use for extension mast could be a communication dish

or a ground scanner

Edited August 23, 2014 by Prime flux

[Prime flux]

Another vision for nli2work parts

could be to create a mobile base equipment by using the frame from the power generation. perhaps with a matching mounting bracket and KAS functions. Using the frame in the same way as the KAS ground pylon.

I are thinking a frame mounted communication unit (acts as probebody with a satellite dish), power source, refinery, resource container and drill unit (placed downwards in the centre of the frame). Why not also science unit and a solar power unit. Perhaps a inflatable tent for role play purpose :-)

You have all this carried on a rover, finds a good spot, stops and want to build a temporary base. Unload the units, connects them with hose/cables (KAS) extract and refine some fuel/other resources. When you are done you unmount the units , load them up on the rover and drive off.

All to enhance the EVA gameplay.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Prime flux

[colmo]

Have a look at Eggman's ideas for portable science using KAS. This is very similar.

I'm picturing all sorts of little carryable rigs like theodolites, cameras on tripods, weather stations and so forth, which can be setup on the ground for use or operated while being carried (depending on what they do).

Talk to Dmagic. This is exactly the sort of stuff you're after.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64972-DMagic-Orbital-Science-New-Science-Parts-V0-4-%281-11-14%29

[Cheetah]

Kethane to Karbonite converter anyone? For those who had (and still keep) a few kilotons of Kethane in orbit before mod was broken.

[Geschosskopf]

So this is what I am thinking.

Now that we have the core stuff out of the way, I'm considering adding a resource with a much more restrictive availability, but one that will behave in superior ways than Karbonite. i.e. go find and mine this stuff, because it lets you do end-game things.

It's still ORS, so no running out - the challenge is not in finding the stuff. The challenge will be more about where it is located at. Specifically, Eve's surface (because it's a bear to get anything into orbit from there), and Eeloo (because of it's accessibility, and it currently has no Karbonite). It will also be found in asteroids in small quantities with the right equipment.

I'm not really in favor of this. I mean, what is the ultimate purpose of this proposed new resource? Being superior to Karbonite essentially means higher energy density (more delta-V per unit). Which in turn leads to KSPI-type stuff. We already have KSPI and I'd prefer Karbonite not turn into another version of that. The reason I use Karbonite (and Kethane before it) is to expand what I can do with more or less conventional rocketry, and to make MKS colonies totally self-sufficient not only with supplies but also fuel for their own fleets. If I want dilithium crystals instead, I'll use KSPI .

Karbonite, as mentioned, already has extremely high energy density, at least when burned as fuel itself with its engine stats as they now are. For instance, check out this biome-hoppiing Mun lander I made with it. This wasn't a trivial project, especially when done about the mid-point of a career game, but it shows the power of Karbonite. Furthermore, I believe I'm on the verge of creating a spaceplane-type SSTO that can reach Eve orbit from sealevel. I've so far managed 60km and 2500m/s before having to switch to rockets, which isn't quite enough, but know I can do better. It's definitely not easy and is presenting many novel challenges, but I'm not yet convinced it can't be done.

Now, I really WANT to make an Eve SSTO to justify building an MKS colony there. Without an SSTO, Eve is pretty much doomed by economics to be a prison planet. But I want an Eve SSTO to be hard, even with Karbonite, like it (probably) is now. I mean, with KSPI, you own Eve, which takes all the fun out of it. With Karbonite as it is now, Eve is still a hard fight. It might even be unwinnable but I don't yet know that. Anyway, I'm definitely NOT saying the Karbonite and/or its engines are OP, but pretty close to right as I like to play the game. What I am saying is that there's no highly visible need for anything more powerful, at least to the extent of my knowledge so far, and anything significantly more powerful than Karbonite would be in KSPI territory.

Bottom line: I think Karbonite by itself, as it stands now, is very close to being or is already all you need to do just about anything, provided you put in some significant design effort and fly it as well as possible. I like it as it stands. I wouldn't tweak its current part stats, and I'd be very careful about adding something even more powerful.

[Geschosskopf]

That's actually not a bad general tweak for ORS anyway - some kind of configurable threshold value.

I dunno. I like having at least a trace amount of stuff everywhere. This enables long-distance scouting and self-help for certain types of mishaps, and makes picking an MKS site a LOT less painful. This is THE major reason I MUCH prefer ORS to Kethane.

Yep, there was/still is. I need to see how dynamic maps in ORS play out and how they are loaded in.

Why do folks think "big drills + time warp = OP" or in need of balance? Time warp works just as well for small drills, you know . I never used the big Kethane drills because the little ones would get the job done with warping, too. Warping is a feature of the game intended to maximize the amount of quality playing time a player has in a play session of limited duration. Instead of having to sit there watching paint dry, he can skip over such boring things and get on with the fun of flying rockets.

I mean, from a Kerbal's POV (ie, from a game-clock perspective), the time required to do anything in KSP, no matter what the task (stock or mod), is totally meaningless unless the time required is measured in years. At that scale, you have to pack a lot more life support supplies and might miss a transfer window, which might require even more life support. A few hours, days, or even a month or 2 difference in the time required to do something has no effect on what Kerbals do.

And the same goes for the player's POV (ie, real time). If the player doesn't have anything else going on in his game, he can just warp until this job is done, then proceed to the next stage of the mission. If he has other irons in the fire, he can jump around between them, warping as necessary until the next KAC alarm goes off. Increasing the time required for a task only impacts the player if it's lke scanning for Kethane. This either requires him to sit there in mind-numbing tedium for hours or go do something else instead of playing the game, while the game runs in the background. Neither of these options is at all desirable from a gameplay POV because one isn't any fun at all and the other isn't playing KSP like he wants to.

So, IMHO, stop worrying about "(insert activity here) + timewarp = OP". It's not OP, it's just how the mechanics of the game itself work. So just make a decision as to whether or not you want a task to be completed in the time available between arriving at a planet and the next transfer window to go home. If the task won't take that long, then the time required for it is utterly meaningless for practical gameplay purposes, no amount of tweaking will ever make it so, and the only thing you can do is impose a kethane-scanning type of un-fun burden on the player, which is bad for business. OTOH, if you want the task to take longer than that, then there's also no point in worrying about the relative rates of big vs small drills, because they'll both take forever.

[RoverDude]

@Geschosskopf Read all of the posts, totally get the POV To put it another way... Core Karbonite stays core Karbonite (that's the intent). But it's also by nature super extensible, so the discussion is basically around what the next mod would look like. To put the pieces together, I'm adding a second resource with FTT since it's a mining/hauling type mod, and when coupled with the exploration mod Packrat is part of (not to be confused with the absolutely adorable parts nli2work has on the table), covers the two extremes - very large parts, and very small ones. And in those two areas, there's some space for some interesting and new mechanics.

So kinda like how MKS takes advantage of Karbonite, but Karbonite does not force you to build MKS bases, FTT (and the follow up mod) are similar. Take the base piece and let's extend it in some interesting ways that may be better suited to alternate playstyles.

Hope that alleviates concerns and makes sense in context

- - - Updated - - -

Kethane to Karbonite converter anyone? For those who had (and still keep) a few kilotons of Kethane in orbit before mod was broken.

Should be a pretty easy config change to make this happen

[Superfluous J]

Kethane to Karbonite converter anyone? For those who had (and still keep) a few kilotons of Kethane in orbit before mod was broken.

Should be a pretty easy config change to make this happen

You could just mod the tanks to hold Karbonite as well as Kethane, and then edit your config file to hold as much Karbonite as you feel the Kethane is worth. Then go up and get it and the deorbit the original ships, so you can uninstall Kethane for good.

[TK421d]

forgive me if i overlooked it (i did look) but is there an addon config somewhere for procedural tanks?

AccidentalDissaembly created a PP config for a Karbonite tank. found here :

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/ProceduralKarbonite.cfg

have not tried it myself, but the syntax looks all correct and it should work.

working like a charm, the only thing some may have issue with is it begins filled like normal PP tanks (which really seems like common sense to me, sine Kerbin is abundant with the resource).

[Geschosskopf]

Hope that alleviates concerns and makes sense in context

- - - Updated - - -

Should be a pretty easy config change to make this happen

[Cyrik]

hey guys,

i just posted a mod that can overlay the karbonite abundance data over the planet, similar to the way kethane did it. it would be nice if some of you could check it out and give me some feedback.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/91615-WIP-MapResourceOverlay-%28works-for-Karbonite-MKS-for-now%29

[Geschosskopf]

Hope that alleviates concerns and makes sense in context

It do. Thanks for the reply. I am comforted in knowing that should mere Karbonite prove not quite up to the job of an Eve SSTO, there's Karbonium to fall back on . But my question still remains..... What is the intended purpose of Karbonium?

I have not yet heard of anybody making a Karbonite Eve SSTO (and I've been subscribed to this thread for some time). I haven't quite succeeded myself yet but it's so close I could be arrested for stalking. So, there are only 2 possible outcomes as Karbonite now stands. Either Karbonite Eve SSTO succeeds or fais by a whisker either way.

I can't think of anything harder to do than tying an Eve colony into a system-wide exchange system. The accepted practice for an Eve ascent after doing no more than planting a flag is, with conventional rocketry, to rove the rocket to the highest convenient mountaintop, then use a Kerbal-made mountain of 1.25m rocket parts in several dozen stages all to get 1 Kerbal in a lawnchair into the lowest possible orbit. This can't in any way come close to being economically viable (forget mere contracts, I'm talking about the long-term "Eve India Company" colonial/imperial stuff), even with Extraplanetary Launchpads. The difference between this conventional approach and a Karbonite SSTO attempt that just barely fails is bigger than (EDIT insert reference to whatever scale seems appropriate here). So what more can Karbonium do that Karbonite can't do?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Geschosskopf

[Nari]

I cant seem to get Karbonite to work. I got a lander to a hotspot and started up the drill but i get 0 karbonite even when leaving it in time warp for a long time. any ideas?

[Taverius]

So, I have a karbonite-related dev question.

One of my (long-standing) issues in the B9 tracker has been to make the B9 AirCS work in non-oxigenated atmospheres.

I've always deferred it as 'post R5, and only with KSPi', because I never saw any point to duplicating the work already done there with switchable-resource intakes.

ResGen (the module we use in the AirCS part) can have fallback resources, so setting up IntakeAtm as alternative to IntakeAir is a non-issue, but what's got me scratching my head is the ModuleManager :NEEDS line so that the secondary resources block appears only when KSPi and ...? What's the dependency I'm looking for Karbonite? CommunityResourcePack?

Would :NEEDS[WarpPlugin|CommunityResourcePack] be correct? B9 R5 is nearly ready and I figure I might as well get that in.

[JeremyKermin]

I have been trying really hard for Three solid days to get this mod to work. I have KSP 0.24.2 and downloaded the USI folder that had Karbonite 0.3.2.1 and MKS 20..1 inside with some other features, It is really confusing on how to install, with having to move folders around and delete subfolders and edit cfg. files and everything else I have read on this forum that i could find. I believe that i had the scanner working properly but then the Hotspot bubbles did not show up. I have tried many things but obviously missing something.

Also I have no other mods installed, other than what is in the USI folder. Pleas can you just make an all in one (working) folder of USI so us noobs can just drag and drop it into the game data folder?

[Akira_R]

I have been trying really hard for Three solid days to get this mod to work. I have KSP 0.24.2 and downloaded the USI folder that had Karbonite 0.3.2.1 and MKS 20..1 inside with some other features, It is really confusing on how to install, with having to move folders around and delete subfolders and edit cfg. files and everything else I have read on this forum that i could find. I believe that i had the scanner working properly but then the Hotspot bubbles did not show up. I have tried many things but obviously missing something.

Also I have no other mods installed, other than what is in the USI folder. Pleas can you just make an all in one (working) folder of USI so us noobs can just drag and drop it into the game data folder?

Err sounds to me like you downloaded the entire usi dropbox which has all the .zips for all of Rovers released mods, because the mods themselves are like that, unzip the karbonite.zip file, and take everything from its game data folder and put it in your game data folder and presto that's it, you don't have to do anything else at this time.

If you want mks same thing