So... Spaceplane Plus is added to the game!

[Alshain]

I can imagine multiplayer as a business priority, but I cannot imagine how that works in any game that necessarily requires time compression. On topic, I too am hoping for a more realistic atmosphere to go with these awesome new spaceplane parts.

The theory works in KMP/DMP. Basically through instancing like you would see in an MMO. Each player has their own time instance (think KMP calls it "Subspace") but can choose to sync their instance with the one furthest forward which would simulate on rails all the ships in that instance till it reaches the synced one. Sadly the execution doesn't work very well, and through no fault of the developer. I just believe adding multiplayer is too complex a task to be added as mod, it just needs more in-depth work with the core code than can be done, so it's never going to work very reliably. But the theory works well.

[Sky_walker]

I can imagine multiplayer as a business priority

And why is that? It makes no sense.

From a business point of view - things like official expansion packs / merchandise / whatever else directly generates income would be a priority. Or heck - probably even stock autopilot would do as something that could possibly increase game popularity / accessibility. But not multiplayer. Just look at the popularity of the existing multiplayer mods - it's marginal at best. Doesn't come even remotely close to stupid part packs, not even to mention MechJeb, Engineer Redux, FAR, DRE, EVE or similar mods that actually add some functionality into the game or enhance visuals.

[Kasuha]

The question is not whether the time warp can be implemented to host multiple players - the answer is clearly yes. The question is whether the whole concept will be attractive to players.

There are two general models of multiplay: competitive and cooperative.

Cooperative is usually less attractive as it requires some kind of common enemy players are battling. This common enemy is usually provided in a form of NPCs or scenarios but since they are hardwired, appropriate strategies for battling them at minimum cost are often found rather soon and the game becomes boring. The same is I'm afraid true for any form of cooperative multiplayer in KSP, regardless of choice of the enemy (space/planets/system itself, enemy ships, etc).

Competitive mode assumes players are battling each other, individually or as members of higher level groups such as guilds or factions. This form of multiplay is usually more interesting as there is no set strategy to beat the opponent. This mode will, I'm afraid, have major problem with players meeting at all - in both space and time. Assuming the time compression method used in current attempts at multiplayer, it is no major problem to continue evading an opponent for extended time. Even during the battle, time warp can be used to evade opponent's attacks. That has the potential to make battles completely uninteresting over time.

[magnemoe]

Porkjet's parts are only for the "mk2" line (the sort of SR-71 profiled parts).

The Mk1 (1.25m) parts have been overhauled by Hugo (allegedly), as well as the Mk3 (the weird offset 2.5m parts).

So all parts should still be there, just in an allegedly shinier form. (confirmedly shinier for mk2 parts)

My guess is that the Mk3 design is based on the shuttle with the low wings mount, I would rather have something like the B9 2.5 meter parts who don't have a offset, you can still mount wings low.

Better to center them and use some huge Concorde style air intakes and put the wheels on them.

The Mk2 work well for that they do, an medium sized plane able to take an decent amount of kerbals and small payloads to orbit.

[KerikBalm]

There are two general models of multiplay: competitive and cooperative.

Cooperative is usually less attractive as it requires some kind of common enemy players are battling. This common enemy is usually provided in a form of NPCs or scenarios but since they are hardwired, appropriate strategies for battling them at minimum cost are often found rather soon and the game becomes boring. The same is I'm afraid true for any form of cooperative multiplayer in KSP, regardless of choice of the enemy (space/planets/system itself, enemy ships, etc).

You assume a "combat". There are multiplayer sandbox games where combat is not the objective. Think multiplayer minecraft in space.

It could be fun to just cooperate building up a laythe base with a friend, for instance.

Competitive mode assumes players are battling each other, individually or as members of higher level groups such as guilds or factions.

No, it doesn't.

Compete != battle

Race to X with a budget of Y.

Players are given a budget, the one that collects the most science wins... etc.

Now it may be that it becomes common to carry a detachable probe, and try to fly it into your opponents spacecraft... but that would be just 1 of many viable strategies.

[Sky_walker]

Compete != battle

battle != exchange of fire / deaths

Race to X with a budget of Y.

That's also "battling".

lol @ 666 posts just in time to talk about battles.

[Kasuha]

Race to X with a budget of Y.

Players are given a budget, the one that collects the most science wins... etc.

You can do such things in singleplayer and communicate your results on forums. Making multiplayer for it would change the game into "multi-singleplayer" where multiple players are playing their own game each and use the framework only for communication. Some kind of KSP facebook. I'm pretty sure that would turn boring pretty soon as well unless the social part won and the game remained there as a cool but optional background.

[timsfitz]

Multiplayer is further complicated by the fact that part counts would slow the game down. A cooperative base for instance could quickly become unplayable if both players were trying to outbuild eachother. I have a decent machine and my larger colonies slow the game to a crawl. I gave never finished a colony for that reason. A couple buildings and some spaceplanes on Laythe and oops, not fun anymore.

[Kasuha]

Cooperative bases (space stations) are another thing I wonder about. Ship is a ship - it has to belong to someone and be somehow protected for that player or it's subject to abuse. Multiple ships docked together are again a single ship and it has to belong to just one player. So if the game allows you to dock to someone else's ship, then either you just won some free parts, or you just lost a ship.

I don't really see a way how to implement it right.

Cooperative bases on planets might work as long as the game treats anyone else's stuff as decorations, i.e. draws their geometry (with distance- and perhaps amount-based degradation) but does not simulate its physics.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Kasuha

[prophet_01]

Refering to business strategy: have a look at space engineers, the sales exploded after adding multiplayer. I know that the concept is not exactly the same, but its still an example of this feature affecting sales.

And btw I always wanted a cooperative mode in ksp. I even had a shared save with a friend via dropbox to exchanged designs and assamble a station together. Especially as new players aren't able to master every aspect of the game from the start, someone specializes on ssto's and the other on heavier lifters. It is a cool experience and was a lot of fun to me back then.

but to get back on track: I rly hope for big cargobays >.< the biggest version of those cargo bays + adapters are the only parts of b9 that still make me spent hours on getting it to work. Shuttles in stock game are something I have been wanting for ages (don't even need to be that huge, but I am begging for 2,5 m bays)

Edited August 26, 2014 by prophet_01

[Sky_walker]

Refering to business strategy: have a look at space engineers, the sales exploded after adding multiplayer. I know that the concept is not exactly the same, but its still an example of this feature affecting sales.

Different game, build from ground-up with a multiplayer in mind and based on another game that also was build from ground-up with multiplayer in mind.

KSP can't really handle single player well (look: first random large space station) in terms of performance and got exactly nothing in it that would make it an attractive title for multiplayer conversion.

And btw I always wanted a cooperative mode in ksp. I even had a shared save with a friend via dropbox to exchanged designs and assamble a station together. Especially as new players aren't able to master every aspect of the game from the start, someone specializes on ssto's and the other on heavier lifters. It is a cool experience and was a lot of fun to me back then.

Fact that people exchange ships got nothing to deal with multiplayer. I really do enjoy this part of a game - shared some designs myself and download many of them just to test - but for me focusing on a multiplayer is nothing more than a waste of time and resources.

but to get back on track: I rly hope for big cargobays >.<

Me too! Cargo bay build from Kerbodyne S3-14400 Tank is my dream!

[Vanamonde]

Multiplayer is a subject for another time, please, as this thread is about the Spaceplane Plus parts.

[Sky_walker]

Sorry boss! I guess the matter of multiplayer keeps on reoccurring again and again.

For now multiplayer discussion focused in the 0.25 Update! topic - so let's let it stay there

So, to get back on topic: What you guys think are the chances to get the fancy cockpit from SP+? People wrote that it's based on a mod made by some other guy - so... either devs will implement their own cockpit, or they'll replicate the mod functionality in their own way?

This cockpit:

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Oafman]

If I have active ships using the SP+ modded parts, and the game updates to include these as stock, can I delete the mod without invalidating my existing ships, or do I need to leave it active to ensure the ships remain untouched?

If the latter, will there be any way of telling whether the duplicated part in the SPH is the mod version or the stock version? Obviously I'll want to always use the stock version on new ships so that I can eventually delete the mod when all of my current modded planes have been retired/destroyed...

[ShawnPhillips]

If I have active ships using the SP+ modded parts, and the game updates to include these as stock, can I delete the mod without invalidating my existing ships, or do I need to leave it active to ensure the ships remain untouched?

If the latter, will there be any way of telling whether the duplicated part in the SPH is the mod version or the stock version? Obviously I'll want to always use the stock version on new ships so that I can eventually delete the mod when all of my current modded planes have been retired/destroyed...

Most likely you will have to keep the mod installed as they have stated that the stock versions will be slightly modified. Also the root folder for the stock parts will be different so the game wont recognize the parts as the same item.

[cantab]

A viable compromise would be to edit SP+ so its parts don't appear in the VAB/SPH. That way legacy ships still work but you won't accidentally use the parts in new ones.

[sp1989]

I think the one thing even SP+ lacks as well as ksp is landing gear. Personally I think the stock landing gear sucks. So something def needs to be done landing gear wise to make SP+ better and ksp space planes as well.

[Franklin]

The stock gear bay needs an update pretty badly, for sure. It's OP'd enough that it's become a bit of a joke. It's a physics-less, high-impact do-all with free lights.

[Porkjet]

A viable compromise would be to edit SP+ so its parts don't appear in the VAB/SPH. That way legacy ships still work but you won't accidentally use the parts in new ones.

And that's exactly what I plan to do! The CFG's can be made to load the new stock assets, create duplicate parts in the old location, be unresearchable and invisible in the parts library, but load up on saved crafts.

Sorry boss! I guess the matter of multiplayer keeps on reoccurring again and again.

For now multiplayer discussion focused in the 0.25 Update! topic - so let's let it stay there

So, to get back on topic: What you guys think are the chances to get the fancy cockpit from SP+? People wrote that it's based on a mod made by some other guy - so... either devs will implement their own cockpit, or they'll replicate the mod functionality in their own way?

This cockpit:

http://i.imgur.com/PD3OgL1.jpg

The cockpit IVA model will be included of course, but not the rasterprop monitors AFAIK, but those weren't packaged with SP+ anyway and required installation of RPM, so everything will be as usual, install RPM to get those aswesome screens.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Porkjet

[Sky_walker]

Thanks a lot for direct info Porkjet