Compulsory vaccination

[Pawelk198604]

Vaccination does not concern me, because as a child I was exempted from vaccination because of an anaphylactic reaction.

In Poland, compulsory vaccination was introduced at the time of the rule of Marshal Jozef Pilsudski, however, until after the Second World War, the communists began to graft on a massive scale. Now, some Poles deliberately Coupled their children, and when they come to sanitary authorities inspectors, call them Commies, which is a bit of a misnomer because compulsory and free vaccinations were in Poland before communist rule.

I once read an article in which one woman who came to vaccinate your child, complained about those parents who do not obey the law, thereby exposing to the disease, her child. This was perhaps the stupidest argument I've ever heard, after all, her child will be "safe" since got the vaccine.

[peadar1987]

I'm surprised you are taking this stance, Pawel, as you yourself are not able to be vaccinated.

Some people can't get the vaccine, and therefore, it is to their benefit that everyone else gets it. If everyone else is vaccinated, there is almost no chance the disease will be able to spread through the population to reach you, even though you are not vaccinated yourself. If not many people are vaccinated, only they are safe, and the disease can still spread through the population at large. This concept is called herd immunity

[rtxoff]

It's maybe stupid from a observer perspective but as a mother or father people tend to get unreasonable cautious if it's about their offspring. Also the vaccine may need some time until the protective effect kicks in.

[KerikBalm]

Just because you've been vaccinated does not mean you are safe, or safe for the rest of eternity. If something compromises your immune system, your resistance is weakened (ie, you may get something as a 2ndary infection).

Immunity to many diseases fades with time. If it is nearing the time that you would need a "booster shot", you'll be glad for Herd immunity.

The more a disease spreads, the more chance it has to mutate to a strain you won't be protected against.

Not being vaccinated by choice, is choosing to be a ticking time bomb, it is choosing to become, at some point, a disease factory that will test the immune systems of those around you.

Its pretty irresponsible

[MartGonzo]

Enforced medication is illegal under the Nuremburg code.

and vaccination is not the wonder drug that pharmaceutical companies like to make out, they have a history of covering up lack of efficacy and toxic side effects.

Big Pharma didn't lobby the US administration to make themselves exempt from responsibility for adverse effects for no reason.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/doctors-against-vaccines-the-other-side-of-the-story-is-not-being-told/

http://vran.org/about-vaccines/general-issues/doctors-speak/the-case-against-immunizatons/

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Midwives-And-Health-Professionals-Against-Vaccination

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying vaccines are part of some evil plot, but there is a very large financial stake in the vaccine industry and more awareness of the risks and efficacy is needed by all, especially before giving large numbers of vaccines to very young children.

especially as many vaccines contain way beyond the recommended dose of substances like Thimerosol (mercury)

Edited August 22, 2014 by MartGonzo

[peadar1987]

Enforced medication is illegal under the Nuremburg code.

And in the UK and Ireland at least, vaccination is not compulsory. It's just very strongly recommended.

and vaccination is not the wonder drug that pharmaceutical companies like to make out, they have a history of covering up lack of efficacy and toxic side effects.

Not every vaccine works first time, or at all, and no treatment is ever 100% safe, but some isolated examples of reckless behaviour don't prove anything. There are some vaccines we know work extremely well, and cause benefits that overwhelmingly outweigh their risks. Polio, for example. MMR. Seasonal 'flu. Smallpox.

Big Pharma didn't lobby the US administration to make themselves exempt from responsibility for adverse effects for no reason.

They're no different from the oil industry, the automotive industry, or any other industry. Nobody wants to take responsibility, especially financial responsibility, for when things go wrong. That doesn't mean that oil rigs and cars are inherently unsafe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying vaccines are part of some evil plot, but there is a very large financial stake in the vaccine industry and more awareness of the risks and efficacy is needed by all, especially before giving large numbers of vaccines to very young children.

This is all completely reasonable, and unfortunately, the crazies from the Jenny McCarthy fan club have politicised and polarised the issue to such a degree that it's very hard to find a reasonable assessment of the risks. No, they don't cause autism, yes, they are generally extremely effective, no, side effects are not likely, but they are still a remote possibility.

especially as many vaccines contain way beyond the recommended dose of substances like Thimerosol (mercury)

Thiomersal is no more mercury than table salt is sodium chloride, and it was phased out of routine vaccinations in Europe and the US in the 1990s, not because of any proven detriment to health, but because the fear of it was reducing vaccination rates.

[Pawelk198604]

I have loot of illnesses, allergy and so on. My mom think that all illness i have is because the vaccines i got when i was young. She also the fact that so many people in Poland have allergies is because vaccines, my mom told that when she was young in 50's, in her class only one girl have allergy, now is reverse.

I watched interview with one of your Polish, health inspector, who reminded that parents who are not exempted, and refuse to vaccine children may face heavy fines, but many parents opt for not vaccinate their kids, knowing that chance they will fined is low and Polish Court system is an epic fail that even that if they fined, they just not paid fine, hoping that they will not got court order to pay it, because if the fine is not collected in five years it's automatic expires.

The American, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, are very popular in Poland, while his message was was mainly targeted in American audience, he had many followers in Poland too. One anti-vaccines association, make Polish subtitles to some of his videos regarding vaccination programs, and distribute it on internet.

[peadar1987]

With all due respect, until your mum does a scientifically rigorous study on a large sample size with control group, her opinion on the matter isn't worth very much. I'm sorry to hear about your health problems, but statistically speaking, they are extremely unlikely to have been caused by anything to do with vaccination.

Even if there has been an increase in the number of people with allergies, there is no evidence to link it to vaccination rates. It could be changing diet, changing living conditions, change in lifestyle, one particularly prevalent theory is that it is due to use being, on the whole, more healthy, and causing our immune system to freak out because it isn't encountering the number of diseases it has evolved to expect.

And even if it was vaccination causing allergies, allergies are still better than smallpox.

The forum won't let me use the language I need to express my true feelings about Alex Jones. He is a cynical and manipulative ass making huge amounts of money off people with mental illnesses like paranoid schizophrenia.

[Pawelk198604]

The forum won't let me use the language I need to express my true feelings about Alex Jones. He is a cynical and manipulative ass making huge amounts of money off people with mental illnesses like paranoid schizophrenia.

PM me i glad to know you personal opinion about him:D

He had some right in some area, but in other he is completely wrong. I think that he is like these guys, that deny fact that lunar landings was filmed by Stanley Kubrick:D

[Godot]

I for my part prefer to have the allergies I have,

instead of the diseases against usually gets vaccinated

[StuntMax]

This was perhaps the stupidest argument I've ever heard, after all, her child will be "safe" since got the vaccine.

It's NOT.

Vaccines (as any other drug) aren't 100% effective, and some individuals can not be vaccinated for various reasons.

People who can't be vaccinated or unlucky individuals for whom the vaccine is ineffective benefit of what is called "herd immunity": the disease fails to spread in an environment in which vast majority of potential hosts are immunized.

The mother is absolutely right.

Anybody else should ALWAYS remember that until the development of vaccines, hospital wards looked like THIS:

(Late 1950s. Each tank sustained a kid affected by Poliomyelitis, who could NEVER leave the tank, not ever for 5 minutes. The disease is nearly eradicated in western world thanks to the vaccine. At 2014, there still is no known cure for developed polio.)

[Idobox]

I am not going to discuss the use of vaccines for dangerous diseases, but there is a movement in France at least to vaccinate for everything, and I don't think it's very good either.

If you are healthy, things like chicken pox or the flu are not dangerous, at least not much more than the vaccine. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that being exposed to diseases makes your immune system stronger, I know I've grown up eating dirt and playing with dogs, and I don't have any allergies, and I am I rarely sick (anecdotal evidence is bad science, but I don't have better data).

It's the same things with antibiotics. Unless I have a risk, I don't take antibiotics. Staying in bed a few more days is not the end of the world, and I believe it makes me less likely to catch something else later, also the side-effects can be nasty.

About allergies, I read a few articles (vulgarization, so who knows how serious they are) talking about the hygiene hypothesis and worms. From what I recall, allergies are caused by the cells in charge of fighting worm infestations, and since we don't get worms any more, it goes haywire. It's probably more complex than that, but some parasitic worms can be used to treat allergies, and kids who grow up in contact with animals and gardens are less likely to get allergies, so it looks like an important factor.

[Kryten]

If you are healthy, things like chicken pox or the flu are not dangerous, at least not much more than the vaccine.

How many people have been killed by the flu vaccine? Don't be confused by people who think any bad cold is 'the flu'.

[lajoswinkler]

[Word we'd rather people didn't say on our forum] who don't allow their kids to be vaccinated are endangering their lives. Compulsory vaccination is beneficial and therefore part of the law where I live.

Vaccinating yourself lowers the chance of getting a disease and the chance of infecting others. It does not remove the possiblity. It just drastically lowers the chance.

If there's enough immunized people, the disease can't spread around. Herd immunity. Immunology 101.

Turn vaccination into voluntary and you get outbursts of polio and other diseases. People who can't get a vaccine because of allergy get the disease, too.

This has started happening more than a decade ago when stupid people started listening to that quack doctor who fabricated the whole autism-vaccination connection. He has lost his licence, thankfully, but his horrific legacy remains. Its death toll will be scary.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Vanamonde

[Idobox]

How many people have been killed by the flu vaccine? Don't be confused by people who think any bad cold is 'the flu'.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/health/05flu.html?_r=0

500 000 people vaccinated against H1N1, 3700 adverse reactions, 204 serious cases, 14 deaths within 5 days of vaccination.

The risk is small, but if you're healthy, the flu is not much more dangerous (around 1 in 10'000 chances to die, vs 0.3 in 10'000 for H1N1 vaccine).

There is also a risk of Guilain-Bare syndrome, a paralysing neurologic condition. The flu vaccine slightly increases the risk to develop it (.1 in a million), although catching the flu is a bigger risk factor.

All in all, you have to remember that getting vaccinated is a medical procedure, and there are small risks associated with it, in addition to the cost and discomfort.

For anything serious, and for people with risk factors, the advantages far outweigh the risks. But vaccinating everybody against everything is not optimal, which is why we have stopped vaccinating against very rare diseases (small risk of side effect for a large population vs big risk for the odd person that contracts it every 10 years)

[lajoswinkler]

Which "rare diseases" have "we stopped vaccinating against"?

[Dkmdlb]

[Expletive deleted] who don't allow their kids to be vaccinated are endangering their lives. Compulsory vaccination is beneficial and therefore part of the law where I live.

I agree completely with the first sentence, but I'm extremely skeptical of justification in the second sentence. I'm not skeptical that compulsory vaccination is the law because it's beneficial, but I do reject the idea that "it's beneficial" is sufficient justification for creating a law. Remember - laws are enforced regardless of the will of the individual and simply saying "it's beneficial" to me isn't enough to override that.

In addition to that, the liability protection enjoyed by the companies which manufacture vaccines is, in my view, a net negative on society because it adds a lot of fuel to the anti-vaxxer fire, and companies which aren't liable for their actions are more likely to sell bad products. I'm not saying vaccines cause autism, I'm just saying liability keeps people honest.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Vanamonde

[StuntMax]

I am not going to discuss the use of vaccines for dangerous diseases, but there is a movement in France at least to vaccinate for everything, and I don't think it's very good either.

This is true, problem is how high to set the bar of the "acceptable risk/benefit ratiio".

Obviously, vaccines for smallpox, poliomyelitis, tetanus, hard cough, epathitis and dyphteria offer strong immunity for life threatening diseases (some of which have no other known treatment and lead to unavoidable and painful death), and have really remote risks, that anybody having a sound mind should not even remotely consider not to vaccinate his son...

Chicken pox IS a risky disease. Maybe not as deadly as epathitis, but it can cause encephalitis in about 0.1% of cases, which can evolve in death (~15% chance) or permanent brain damage (~50%). Keep in mind that chicken pox is higly infective, before widespread vaccination it was considered "normal" for a child to contract chicken pox at some point, so we are talking about some thousands of kids risking death each year in the USA.

It is well documented that Wakefield's alliegations of MMR shots causing autism were based on a fraudulent study; side effects other than "mild" are rare (<1 on 10.000), and severe side effects extremily rare (single case studies over millions of doses), so i'd say that if I had a child, i'd have him vaccinated againist chicken pox.

"Influenza" (here is called "Seasonal influenza", to distinguish it from the major influenza pandemies such as Asian or Spagnola) is benign, not life-threatening for a fit adult, vaccine effectiveness is moderate, it has pretty common... influenza-like side effects, and offer no long term immunity... and that's why flu vaccine needs TV advertising and is not paid by public health services (if not for people with weak immune system: elderly, sick or immunodepressed people).

Besides, I think that a vaccine that every single year gets reengineered (in ONE YEAR?) to cope with "the new upcoming viral stem"... well, is at least a bit "suspect".

The problem is that LOTS of people, who thinks that we now have a life expecancy of 80+ years (50 years ago 60 yrs people were considered senile) because of "good karma" and NOT because of developments in medicine, is now starting to question the WHOLE vaccine research (usually with, pardon my french, bullshamble arguments) and are refraining to vaccinate their children for ANYTHING, exposing western society to new potential epidemies of diseased that our grandparents knew (and feared), but we consider extinct.

Antibiotics are a completely different cake. Nonchalant use of antibiotics is simply criminal, as it can speed up bacteria evolution in antibiotic-resistant stems, thus rendering medications useless right when they are needed. One should use antibiotics only on strict medical prescription, period.

[Sky_walker]

Turn vaccination into voluntary and you get outbursts of polio and other diseases. People who can't get a vaccine because of allergy get the disease, too.

This has started happening more than a decade ago when stupid people started listening to that quack doctor who fabricated the whole autism-vaccination connection. He has lost his licence, thankfully, but his horrific legacy remains. Its death toll will be scary.

This.

/10char.

[How2FoldSoup]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/05/health/05flu.html?_r=0

500 000 people vaccinated against H1N1, 3700 adverse reactions, 204 serious cases, 14 deaths within 5 days of vaccination.

The risk is small, but if you're healthy, the flu is not much more dangerous (around 1 in 10'000 chances to die, vs 0.3 in 10'000 for H1N1 vaccine).

There is also a risk of Guilain-Bare syndrome, a paralysing neurologic condition. The flu vaccine slightly increases the risk to develop it (.1 in a million), although catching the flu is a bigger risk factor.

All in all, you have to remember that getting vaccinated is a medical procedure, and there are small risks associated with it, in addition to the cost and discomfort.

For anything serious, and for people with risk factors, the advantages far outweigh the risks. But vaccinating everybody against everything is not optimal, which is why we have stopped vaccinating against very rare diseases (small risk of side effect for a large population vs big risk for the odd person that contracts it every 10 years)

If you had bothered to be honest in your summarizing of that article I would be more inclined to take you seriously. First of all, ONE of those 14 people that died, was from a car crash. If you want to say vaccines cause car crashes now you're going to have a hard time justifying much else. Additionally, 9 of the remaining 13 people had "serious underlying conditions" that had an effect. If these 9 with such serious conditions were at risk of death from the vaccine. I think it likely that they were even at higher risk from contracting the disease themselves. So, without researching any further onto these 14 people that leaves us with 4 people, who you claim, died(likely from pneumonia or heart disease, as stated by your source) from the vaccine. That leaves us with a .08 in 10,000 chance for death. Of the total 500,000 people( 430,000 really) that's a .000008, or eight millionths of a percent chance of death. Next time you use a source, please read it thoroughly and understand the numbers for what they mean. The article even says 13 people died following vaccination and 1 person died of a car crash after leaving the clinic. You deliberately added the extra person to cook your already small numbers. This is the science forum, try not to use whatever feels "right" for evidence.

[NFUN]

Which "rare diseases" have "we stopped vaccinating against"?

Smallpox. Although it isn't "rare" so much as extinct, at least in nature.

[Kryten]

People expected to have a possibility of coming into contact with it are still vaccinated. In this day and age, that's just soldiers in specialised units, but it was most of those stationed in in europe a couple of decades back.

[cpast]

People expected to have a possibility of coming into contact with it are still vaccinated. In this day and age, that's just soldiers in specialised units, but it was most of those stationed in in europe a couple of decades back.

IIRC, they also keep stocks of vaccine on hand in case of escape from containment, and one reason they keep it around at all in 2 places is to know more about it in case it's not quite as eradicated as is generally believed.

Also, apparently, until May this year, all US military personnel deploying to the Middle East were required by policy to be vaccinated. It's still apparently required for those in Korea over 15 days, as well as certain emergency-essential units and personnel. It's not just a rare few, then.

Edited August 22, 2014 by cpast

[crubs]

This is a very political topic, but since it's happening. I like Rick Perry's opt-out instead of opt-in. The choice is exactly the same and the only difference between the two is that opt-out systems have more participation. The only arguments I've really heard against it is people not wanting to do it. If you don't want to, then don't, you still have that option.

I don't think we need to force people to have vaccines, especially since some people may have religious objections. As an American, religious freedom is one of my most prized freedoms.

[K^2]

Forcing people into anything is always a bad thing. But issue isn't religious freedom of people being vaccinated or not. It's religious freedom of parents vs protection of children. Once you reached age of majority, there is no question. But children, technically, aren't deciding for themselves. And the question is whether right to chose should belong to the State or the parents. We don't give parents a choice on whether children receive education, for example, and for good reasons. Yes, we allow home-schooling, but the program is still mandated by the State.

The other part is that we should be more aggressive about educating population, so that people don't make dumb decisions for dumb reasons, the way the OP does. That's not even a religious freedoms issue. It's pure idiocy over which hundreds of thousands of children suffer.