Compulsory vaccination

[Dkmdlb]

The other part is that we should be more aggressive about educating population

This conversation is getting dangerously close to politics, so let's refocus it. Your suggestion is, in my view, the only way forward. Education might take a bit longer than simply passing a law, but in the end it's the best way. And there are other options - various private organizations can exert their influence. There are pediatricians who won't take patients unless they are vaccinated, for instance.

But seriously, education is the key.

[cantab]

If you are healthy, things like chicken pox or the flu are not dangerous, at least not much more than the vaccine.

If caught by a pregnant woman chickenpox can cause severe disease in the foetus. As for flu, while most strains aren't dangerous to healthy fit people and thus said people aren't advised to get vaccinated, there have been exceptions, including the 1918 pandemic that killed over 50 million people worldwide.

Anyway, I don't think compulsory vaccination is a good idea. It's liable to foster hostility between people and the health service, and encourage opposition. People by and large don't like being ordered to do things by their governments.

[Brotoro]

...If you are healthy, things like chicken pox or the flu are not dangerous, at least not much more than the vaccine...

While the flu may not be dangerous to a healthy person, and therefore they might think it better for them if they don't risk any problems from the vaccine by not getting vaccinated, remember that they are allowing the disease to spread further than it would otherwise. So while they are toughing it out with their case of the flu, how many babies, old people, and others that are at high risk from the flu have they put in greater danger?

I get flu vaccinations not just for myself, but to help protect everybody else in the population who are at greater risk than I am.

[lajoswinkler]

I don't think we need to force people to have vaccines, especially since some people may have religious objections. As an American, religious freedom is one of my most prized freedoms.

So, religious freedom is above the right to health and, in some cases, life? Screw that. It's neither morally correct or existing in laws. That's why if there are two fanatical Jehowah's witness parents who don't allow their kid to get a dose of blood even if the alternative is death, the state stomps their "religious freedom" over because it doesn't matter.

While the flu may not be dangerous to a healthy person, and therefore they might think it better for them if they don't risk any problems from the vaccine by not getting vaccinated, remember that they are allowing the disease to spread further than it would otherwise. So while they are toughing it out with their case of the flu, how many babies, old people, and others that are at high risk from the flu have they put in greater danger?

I get flu vaccinations not just for myself, but to help protect everybody else in the population who are at greater risk than I am.

I do the same thing. I buy the thing and ask my nurse to give it to me, because I don't want to help the virus to spread around. I don't want to be one of the pods in which it will mutate, either.

[DaveofDefeat]

Hey, the Spanish flu helped end WW1 so not getting vaccinated isn't all that bad.

[cpast]

Hey, the Spanish flu helped end WW1 so not getting vaccinated isn't all that bad.

And in the process, it killed over 3 times as many people as died in the entirety of WWI (Spanish flu: 50-100 million deaths, 3-5% of the total world population killed in one year; WWI: 16 million deaths over 4 years). In general, the flu is far, far, far more deadly than you'd think if you think of any bad cold as "the flu".

Edited August 23, 2014 by cpast

[lajoswinkler]

I think some of you here never actually had influenza. Bad cold is not influenza.

I had H1N1 and a "regular" influenza in my life. You don't want either of them. It will chain you to bed and if you have chronic diseases or you're old, it can easily kill you by itself or secondary infections. H1N1 turned my runny nose into a bloody nose and made me nearly incapacitated for a few days.

Since H1N1, I get vaccinated every year.

[K^2]

You can have influenza, and get away with just cold-like symptoms. Though, usually, if you've had similar strain or been immunized to one before. I'm prepared to bet that you have had flues that you've taken for a bad cold.

But yeah. A full on influenza that your system wasn't exposed to before is absolutely not a thing to take lightly. Even if you don't mind two weeks of misery, one of which you're likely to be almost totally incapacitated for, there is a huge risk for all sorts of complications even if you are an otherwise healthy individual. The hell through which it puts your respiratory alone is reason enough to put serious effort into avoiding it.

[peadar1987]

I had the Swine Flu vaccine a few years back. One of the side effects was "mild 'flu symptoms". It was worse than any cold I have ever had, and I have absolutely no desire to experience the full-blown thing!

[Seret]

It's maybe stupid from a observer perspective but as a mother or father people tend to get unreasonable cautious if it's about their offspring.

Speaking as a parent I absolutely 100% want to protect my kids from unpleasant diseases, being ill sucks for them and for me. Avoiding vaccination may stem from a protective instinct, but it's also based on a completely wrong assessment of the risks. There's no excusing it IMO, they're just plain wrong.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Seret

[Dodgey]

The Internet really needs a small symbol that can be used as an indicator of sarcasm.

[PakledHostage]

So, religious freedom is above the right to health and, in some cases, life? Screw that. It's neither morally correct or existing in laws.

I used to not bother with flu vacinations, but my doctor won me over with the herd immunity argument when H1N1 was going around. While the flu may not be a very big risk for young healthy people, we don't want to transmit it to someone who is vulnerable. The low risk of complications for any one individual is outweighed by the benefits to the population at large.

An interesting example of how a lack of herd immunity can lead to outbreaks happened this past spring: There was an outbreak of measels in British Columbia, Canada that started in a fundamentalist Christian school. The immunization rate among kids in that school are reportedly near zero. Immunization rates in the "Bible belt" communities in that area are also low. Hopefully better policies will evolve out of this case study before an outbreak of something more serious happens in that community or in others like it.

[Elthy]

The only vaccination that was controversial discussed in my enviroment was the swineflu vaccination. But the whole topic about the swineflu is very controversial, it seemed overrated but maybe its better to be carefull about possible pandemic diseases.

[SolNG]

I've been subjected to vaccines far more often than the average person, I can guarantee that. Between the military and GOV work, I've been pricked every singe time the Feds think there is even the most remote chance of risk. Smallpox, Anthrax, H1N1 (that was rushed to the market in a scare), flu shots every year, all the "standard" US shots (which I've had in some cases more than half a dozen times). I personally think it's far too much, but I usually have no choice.

And the result? I'm perfectly fine. My kids, both of whom were born after a vast majority of these vaccines, are perfectly healthy. The fact is, diseases part of the standard US vaccine plan that flare back up occur in populations that were not vaccinated. The anti-vaccine crowd only has fear mongering to point to- evil corporations and conspiracy theories. But all that flies in the face of cold, hard facts. Fact is, people are far more healthy when vaccinated. Anything else is Russian roulette.

[TheSaint]

I'm of two minds on the issue. The libertarian in me says that vaccinations should not be mandated by the government. But the scientist in me says that if you don't vaccinate your kids, you have no concept of risk. My kids are all fully vaccinated and show no signs of autism or any of the other illnesses blamed on vaccines.

When my wife and I made the decision to move from Los Angeles to Prescott four years ago, one of the reasons on the list was, "Proliferation of anti-vax memes will lead to outbreaks of preventable diseases in major population centers." And now, four years later:

OC Health Officials Warn Of Measles Outbreak

[SolNG]

Yeah I should clarify I also don't think it should be compulsory. To me it's just common sense.

[Scotius]

Evolution will take care of this issue. Smarter people will vaccinate and have more healthy, surviving children. Stupid people will not do that, and more of their kids will die. Either stupid folks go extinct, or they will be painfully reminded why humanity developed vaccination in the first place.

[NFUN]

Evolution will take care of this issue. Smarter people will vaccinate and have more healthy, surviving children. Stupid people will not do that, and more of their kids will die. Either stupid folks go extinct, or they will be painfully reminded why humanity developed vaccination in the first place.

No, that won't really happen. Intelligence isn't really much of a part in human natural selection anymore, and I don't think intelligence is the most important factor in whether or not somebody vaccinates. Misinformation and cultural views are probably much more important in this regard. Eventually vaccinations will be nearly universally accepted, maybe from learning the hard way, but not because less intelligent people were selected against.

[RockoDyne]

And here's another topic that is about the wrong argument. Before I even worry about whether vaccines are good or bad, I worry about whether vaccine manufacturers are good or bad. So when I see mountain of corruption like how vaccine manufacturers can't be sued, how vaccines are pushed into the market with little testing, and how vaccines are paid for by the government (thanks Obama care), I tend to think they might not actually have my best interest at heart.

And unless I've been misled, haven't the winters recently where there have actually been shortages of the flu vaccine been some of the mildest.

[cybutek]

Evolution will take care of this issue. Smarter people will vaccinate and have more healthy, surviving children. Stupid people will not do that, and more of their kids will die. Either stupid folks go extinct, or they will be painfully reminded why humanity developed vaccination in the first place.

It's just a shame that kids being the innocent party are at the mercy of their parents stupidity... Considering the science, evidence of benefits and absence when it comes to scare stories, a childs life should be more important than a social meme or religious freedom.

[NFUN]

And here's another topic that is about the wrong argument. Before I even worry about whether vaccines are good or bad, I worry about whether vaccine manufacturers are good or bad. So when I see mountain of corruption like how vaccine manufacturers can't be sued, how vaccines are pushed into the market with little testing, and how vaccines are paid for by the government (thanks Obama care), I tend to think they might not actually have my best interest at heart.

And unless I've been misled, haven't the winters recently where there have actually been shortages of the flu vaccine been some of the mildest.

That is a little bit too political, try to refocus.

The thing is, vaccine manufacturers could be the scum of the Earth-- conniving greedy bastiches whose only desire is to suck as much money from the masses while spending the least money they can on safety and effectiveness. It still won't matter, not scientifically. Vaccines have pretty much been proven rigorously to be safe, with almost negligible serious side effects, and effective, by using NUMBERS. And DATA. You can hate and distrust the players, it might be better off if you do, but they don't need to be wholesome entities. Their products have been tested, and have to be tested before being released. The numbers don't lie, and as long as they are telling good things, that's good enough for me, and should be for any rational person.

[KerikBalm]

So when I see mountain of corruption like how vaccine manufacturers can't be sued,

They can be sued for negligence. What the protections are, are to prevent them from being sued every time someone who takes their vaccines (ideally, everyone) gets sick or has some medical problem. Otherwise, everyone with an autistic kid, or a stupid kid, or a kid with some other disability, would be having lawyers line up to sue the companies, likely trying for an out of court settlement.

They can still be sued if their product is proven to be defective, or the lie, or were negligent, etc.

They can't be sued just because they made a vaccine and you think it might have some link to something else based upon timing.

how vaccines are pushed into the market with little testing,

There is A LOT of testing

and how vaccines are paid for by the government (thanks Obama care)

So are your roads, and your military, and your police... but your vaccines... Obamacare just fines you if you don't pay a private corporation to cover you

And unless I've been misled, haven't the winters recently where there have actually been shortages of the flu vaccine been some of the mildest.

I can't say, but perhaps there were shortages because everyone was going for them, causing the shortage?

Perhaps there is some lag effect - if it was suppressed the years before, it won't come on as strong this year? I don't know.

The *biggest* problem, is that the companies, at least in the US, stopped selling the old vaccines that were really cheap - the patents had expired.

So they make a new vaccine (using newer genetic engineering techniques to produce just the antigen, rather than killed virus or weakened virus), patent that, then sell it for a couple hundred per dose, when the old one could be sold for a few dollars per dose.

Then they lobby to get this new, expensive vaccine put on some list of required vaccinations for school (or something like that, I'm not sure/ I forget what they did to cut out the generic on the vaccines with expired patents, maybe they just have the doctors/health care places push the old drug, or ban the import, and then engage in anti-competitive action and all companies selling in the US agree to stop selling the cheap ones).

Now, a marginally safer/better vaccine is making the cost of vaccination increase 100 fold.

Personally, If I had a choice, and cost wasn't an issue, I'd go with the new one... but the old ones were just fine, and should still be available.

The only reason the new ones are expensive, is because they are patented and the companies wish to make profits.

The old ones... with expired patents, their profit margin is so low that they don't really even want to make them.

Its a problem of new and patented = expensive, but you can't turn to the old and expired patent... except in other countries... but they won't sell the cheap ones in the US

Capitalism fails again when monopolies and collusion/anti-competitve practices or simply pure greed takes root.

[comham]

The selfish idiocy of the anti vaccine movement has lead to a massive resurgence in totally preventable diseases.

[Napaeozapus]

There is A LOT of testing.

Any idea how much testing of the final product on actual animals there is? I have done some vaccine testing on mice for livestock vaccines so was wondering. As long as the mice only came close to dyeing it was okay to release the product. I would hope human vaccines have a bit higher standards. I forget what it was in some of the products that would always get a reaction.

[RockoDyne]

That is a little bit too political, try to refocus.

The problem is we don't live in a world governed by the scientific method, but a world ruled by governmental and economic power. I like arguing fact before theory. It's why my stance on GMO's isn't that they are a wonder drug for all the worlds problems, but a scam to sell more round up.

I can't say, but perhaps there were shortages because everyone was going for them, causing the shortage?

Perhaps there is some lag effect - if it was suppressed the years before, it won't come on as strong this year? I don't know.

No, the shortages I'm talking about are actual shortages in the total supply made. And unless there is a congressional hearing, not one pharmaceutical will go to court in the US.

So are your roads, and your military, and your police... but your vaccines... Obamacare just fines you if you don't pay a private corporation to cover you

Do you really want me to get into how a two thousand page bill, that completely overhauled the student loans program in this country, was actually about more than saying you need to find a health insurance provider or be fined?