[1.x+] Community Resource Pack

[Nertea]

Intresting, I head something similar. Sounds like a good idea. The hard it is to store this powerfull stuff, the better. Could you provide a link to the confined cryogenic slush?

Something in a Robert Forward theoretical paper. Can't find the link at work, seems. Think I got directed to it off of AtomicRockets though. It's not going to change the difficulty of storing it, if you're currently using gaseous confinement it's a Penning trap (leaky electrostatic) that needs a lot of power. Cryomagentic would just change the requirements to cooling and magnets.

Regarding the Gas postfix in Names, when should they be applied and when not? For instance, why is it aplied to Argon

Say, we may also want to create a definition for the outer gas planets

ArgonGas has the suffix because...

a) KSPI Argon had a screwed up density and I didn't want to conflict.

XenonGas was a thing.

I've added all the RF resource to that WIP spreadsheet. I'm trying to compile who uses what from my limited knowledge, so let me know if yall use one of the resources and you're not in that users column.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Nertea

[RoverDude]

Thanks for the atmo stuff.

A few thoughts:

I'm ambivalent on where we put the Gas suffix - i.e. I am ok if we put it on the noble gasses for consistency, as long as it is consistent. The downside of the unused resources (Neon and Krypton) is that if we have no parts that use these, why include them? We can always plunk them in down the road.

Next - for the liquids (Methane, HE3, Deuterium) - should these not be atmospheric gasses, only because of their usual natural occurrence?

For Deut/HE3 an option could also be to stick with Helium/Hydrogen and allow a processor to distill the lqd variants out (i.e. Deuterium occurs in our own atmosphere at a rate of 1:6420). That solved the 'too many trace things in the atmo leading to long menus' and also sidesteps having a Deuterium gas as well as a Lqd variant. Also makes Hydrogen a bit more generic and multi-use.

It also means, that since Deuterium occurs in water, that you could pull water up and through some serious distillation, do Deuterium generation from an asteroid or an oceanic/crustal resource.

[FreeThinker]

Something in a Robert Forward theoretical paper. Can't find the link at work, seems. Think I got directed to it off of AtomicRockets though. It's not going to change the difficulty of storing it, if you're currently using gaseous confinement it's a Penning trap (leaky electrostatic) that needs a lot of power. Cryomagentic would just change the requirements to cooling and magnets.

ArgonGas has the suffix because...

a) KSPI Argon had a screwed up density and I didn't want to conflict.

XenonGas was a thing.

Well Argon can now be given any density we want and Xenon could be introduced with STP. all exiting XenonGas tanks can be converted to a Xenon tank using a simple MM script. This should us get rig of the "Gas"postfix for once an for all

- - - Updated - - -

The downside of the unused resources (Neon and Krypton) is that if we have no parts that use these, why include them? We can always plunk them in down the road.

Well I think I can adopt them by include them in my electric propelant definition, which would make them usefull.

Edited February 27, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

I would not want to change the definition of Xenon. Probably easier to standardize on a convention for noble gasses instead IMO, since it would mess with stock and that's something we should not do.

[FreeThinker]

Thanks for the atmo stuff.

Next - for the liquids (Methane, HE3, Deuterium) - should these not be atmospheric gasses, only because of their usual natural occurrence?

Well Methane is very easy to convert to a Liquid form and HE3, Deuterium are very uncommon and can only be found in trace amounts in Jool Athmosphere. But when you try to extract it from it's atmosphere by destilation it would be in a liquid form.

- - - Updated - - -

I would not want to change the definition of Xenon. Probably easier to standardize on a convention for noble gasses instead IMO, since it would mess with stock and that's something we should not do.

I understand. To bad KSP the only real Resource stock KSP defines, is called wrong.

Still there is the blasted 5 unit/L thingy which blows our conversions, this alone is reason enough to introduce a new resource IMHO.

Edited February 27, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

Well at least it's only the noble ones

My thought on HE3/Deut/Hydrogen/Helium:

Extract Hydrogen, convert to LqdHydrogen/LqdDeuterium (at likely a 6000:1 ratio of LqdH to LqdD)

Extract Helium (I have a use for helium gas down the line), convert to LqdHelium/LqdHE3 at an appropriate ratio.

Extract Oxygen, convert to LqdOxygen

Extract Nitrogen, convert to LqdNitrogen

etc.

That keeps things pretty consistent.

You can have converters dump either one if there is no storage space, or sell it off, and it keeps the atmospheres manageable

[FreeThinker]

For Deut/HE3 an option could also be to stick with Helium/Hydrogen and allow a processor to distill the lqd variants out (i.e. Deuterium occurs in our own atmosphere at a rate of 1:6420). That solved the 'too many trace things in the atmo leading to long menus' and also sidesteps having a Deuterium gas as well as a Lqd variant. Also makes Hydrogen a bit more generic and multi-use.

Basicly that would turn it into a generic resource like IntakeAir. No thank you, that would defeat it's purpose.

- - - Updated - - -

Extract Hydrogen, convert to LqdHydrogen/LqdDeuterium (at likely a 6000:1 ratio of LqdH to LqdD)

Extract Helium (I have a use for helium gas down the line), convert to LqdHelium/LqdHE3 at an appropriate ratio.

I don't like this kind of generalisations. That's what the athmospheric definition file is for, to make it unique for every planet/moon! It would give me a reason to travel all the way to Jool, to harvest the stuff and sell it for a profit back at Kerbin. Resource Mining is one of the best reasons for space travel, please don't kill it!

- - - Updated - - -

Well at least it's only the noble ones

Alright, then we have several options:

A: Ignore this abomination completely and make sure none of our CRP resources has the "Gas" postfix

B: We give all noble gases the Postfix "Gas" and put them into the 5 units/ L scale

C: We give all noble gases the Postfix "Gas" and keep all CRP Gasses in 1 units/ L scale

D: We ignore the inconsistancies

Edited February 27, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

B or B.

RE HE3/Deuterium - so there would be no gas variant then? Same with Methane?

[Nertea]

I'm not going to comment on the atmo resources, but it's desirable to better the user experience to not have half a billion resources clogging up a resource intake.

Alright, then we have several options:

A: Ignore this abomination completely and make sure none of our CRP resources has the "Gas" postfix

B: We give all noble gases the Postfix "Gas" and put them into the 5 units/ L scale

C: We give all noble gases the Postfix "Gas" and keep all CRP Gasses in 1 units/ L scale

D: We ignore the inconsistancies

C. This causes no problems, the only issues is ensuring that tank volumes are correct .

I would say that there's no point in including different phased versions of resources in the project at all - only the stored version should be defined. If you're scooping hydrogen out from the air, it's going to be stored as LH, not gaseous. I'm unclear on the actual utility of storing intermediaries (scoop Oxygen, liquify to LiquidOxygen makes my eye twitch)

[RoverDude]

Here's my take.

Oxygen, CO2, and Hydrogen are already used by other mods, so the intermediary state is there regardless. It just looks really weird to have LqdHydrogen as an atmospheric harvestable resource, unless we're making a pretty big leap and saying that atmosphere does not refer to what it's composition is, but on what we can extract out of it in final form, thus turning all intakes also into distillers. Which gets visually weird.

In either case, it has to be consistent. Gaseous states make the most sense in this context. That being said, I am semi-ok where we decide that if there are multiple forms (Oxygen vs LqdOxygen) which are two VERY different things, that the atmospheric should always be the gaseous, and in a case where only a liquid exists (say, Water) that it is ok to use that single liquid state and assume we're getting condensed vapor.

(edit more for Nertea)

The rub is that as of now, there is not a model that says 'scoop X convert Y', just 'scoop and store X', and 'Convert X to Y'.

A new one could be written, but there may be cases where you want to scoop oxygen (say, for life support) vs. create LqdOxygen (for propulsion)

[Tellion]

Not being involved in any mod's development myself, I am very fond of the idea of having both gaseous and liquid components brought into ISRU where it is appropriate. Scooping LH2 from Jools atmosphere just does not feel right for me (which might be very subjective). Also, a significant portion of those resources is already defined from other mods in the CRP at this point.

I can see FreeThinker's point about the highly specific resources - because putting six thousand tons of HE and a bunch of converters on the launchpad and converting it into He3 should not be a viable gameplay option (though one might restrict helium's availability during assembly - then again, that narrows possible uses down).

Also we have another problem when we allow large portions of a more generic resource to be converted into small portions of a specific one: what about conservation of mass? Are we dumping some perfectly good fuel, or are we keeping it with its name, allowing reconversion? I am not even bringing name changing into this...

In the case of He3 for example, defining a resource band in space just above Jool's atmosphere would do the job just fine, avoiding both the issue of overabundance and unmanageable atmospheres.

[RoverDude]

And yeah, let's go with C

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I am ok with the trace bits given how few we will have - but as Nertea noted, we need to be concious of the UI at some point.

[Starwaster]

Apologies to all for my absence; my net was out earlier, and then when it got back, RoverDude caught me on IRC and we hashed some stuff out.

Basically, RF has two reasons for using STACK. They are:

1. Crossfeed must exist (no getting fuel magically after six steel plates, you have to actually run a fuel line there). The problems with KSP's lack of bidirectional crossfeed are mostly solved by CrossFeedEnabler, and it could be extended to make bi-directional fuel lines I'm sure.

2. Non-STACK modes have a hard clamp of 1e-5 units per physics tick. If you request less than 1e-5 units, whether you are sending or receiving, your request is summarily refused. This means that if you twitch a reaction wheel only slightly, it will not produce anything because it doesn't request enough EC and thus gets a "no EC left" response. If your antenna requests less than 0.0005 units of EC per tick, well, it thinks it's out of power because that's refused. STAGE uses the same logic as ALL_VESSEL for that.

Now, in talking with RoverDude, here's what we came up with.

1. RF will depend on CRP.

To what extent exactly? CRP is going to be an actual dependency instead of RF being a stand-alone mod? What's actually involved and what changes are being made?

[RoverDude]

When the dust settles (and all of this is for 1.0 as there will be a plethora of breaking changes anyway), USI, NFT, KSPI-E, and RF will all share the same set of resource configs, that set of configs being CRP, with RO overriding some of those settings.

[FreeThinker]

To what extent exactly? CRP is going to be an actual dependency instead of RF being a stand-alone mod? What's actually involved and what changes are being made?

For players, not much really, but it prevents a lot op potential problems caused by double definitions and multiple resources that are identical except in name

[undercoveryankee]

For players, not much really, but it prevents a lot op potential problems caused by double definitions and multiple resources that are identical except in name

For instance, it will be a lot easier to keep KSPI antimatter tanks costing a small positive number once everyone agrees on the cost of Antimatter.

[Craeshen]

Imho the simplest way to do this is have all relevant resources extractable from atmosphere's of suitable composition by any intake followed by a compressor part convert them to liquid state @ the appropriate ratio's.

Have extraction rate represented as as percentage of the total flow rate (IE for kerbin take nitrogen for example you have x number of units of intake resource of which 70% ish is nitrogen so take the flow rate and multiply by what percentage of the flow should be your target gas in the compressor with maybe a multiplier for intakes which either speed compress or actively compress the air (shock cone and ram intake)).

Then afaik if my math is right you multiply that total amount by the amount you get once phase change is complete. (so for super simplicity's sake liquid hydrogen for example contains a lot more gaseous hydrogen but is also heavier afaik.)

- - - Updated - - -

Also antimatter needs to be ridiculously expensive for the purpose of career continuity simply for the fact it's incredibly hard to synthesize irl and kerbin is roughly analogous to current earth technological levels

[RoverDude]

@Craeshen - I agree, but am also ok with some compromises for specific KSPI resources like LqdDeut and LqdHE3 in the interest of getting everyone to come together (assuming they have no gaseous analogues)

[NathanKell]

Nertea: I'm certainly fine with CRP listing as many resources as possible. Indeed, since the resources the game supports aren't displayed (and have only a negligible impact on lookup time) there's little reason not to include as much as possible.

Gases at STP does mean that you will be faced with tens of thousands of units even for a small probe (which RF is fine with, but...).

I also would throw out the suggestion of also standardizing existing resources; with MM to up resource amounts on parts as necessary, there's no need to even keep stock resources at 5L/unit, and certainly if one uses, say, MFT, many reasons not to do that. Certainly keeping gases at 5L/unit is not a good idea, IMO, and as mentioned something RF would have to undo itself. (To be clear, RF exists to mess with stock, and under no circumstances will not mess with stock. )

Given that resources have only one density per, I don't think we can get away without doing things like Methane and LqdMethane, especially since in RF terms one will be subject to boiloff and one won't.

Starwaster: in the end, nothing should change for users of RF. The difference will be that RF will depend on CRP, but will make whatever changes are necessary if, say, CRP goes with 5L/unit gases.

[FreeThinker]

@Craeshen - I agree, but am also ok with some compromises for specific KSPI resources like LqdDeut and LqdHE3 in the interest of getting everyone to come together (assuming they have no gaseous analogues)

How many Mods have Fusion Reactors? No need for Deuterium and Helium3 Gases., LqdDeut and LqdHE3 are highly specialized uncommon resources only used for Fusion and Cooling.

[FreeThinker]

And yeah, let's go with C

Well B would be more consistent, but C would be ok as well

[Northstar1989]

I'm unclear on the actual utility of storing intermediaries (scoop Oxygen, liquify to LiquidOxygen makes my eye twitch)

Like was discussed, intermediaries may have different uses (pressurized "Nitrogen" gas can be used for RCS in RealFuels, KSP-I Extended "Liquid Nitrogen" can't and shouldn't be able to, for instance), or the conversion may take significant amounts of energy (liquifying Oxygen, for instance, is not something you're going to want to do for a life-support system on a surface base due to the high energy-cost of liquification...)

Regards,

Northstar

[Yemo]

I do not understand why we have liquid Hydrogen and Hydrogen as a resource (or liquid Oxygen and Oxygen and so on).

What is the benefit of that distinction (except for a total realism simulation), I can only see lots of issues?

Can anyone enlighten me?

[RoverDude]

Because one is a naturally occurring gas, and one is a fuel. LqdOxygen is completely different and with different use cases than Oxygen.

(Edit)

Nertea/FreeThinker - no word from the BioMass guys, so let's drop those off for now. I'll keep the BioMass resource in sync as a USI one and just use their new density.

[Yemo]

Because one is a naturally occurring gas, and one is a fuel. LqdOxygen is completely different and with different use cases than Oxygen.

(Edit)

Nertea/FreeThinker - no word from the BioMass guys, so let's drop those off for now. I'll keep the BioMass resource in sync as a USI one and just use their new density.

Hm, how about Hydrogen?

Your Karbonite mod converts to liquid Hydrogen, while other mods like Universal Storage use Hydrogen together with Oxygen eg in Alkaline Fuel Cells to produce electricity.

So is there a way to convert your liquid Hydrogen into the Hydrogen used by Universal Storage, or are those 2 different substances? I thought they are just different aggragate states?

edit: Of the same resource.