[1.4.1] Kerbal Construction Time 1.4.0.69 (2018-03-24) - Unrapid Planned Assembly

[DBowman]

Hi I'm just getting  to grips with how the mod works, 79 pages of posts - very successful. I had some questions around the 'practice effect' (having built a part makes it quicker the next time) after watching the videos and reading the included .pdf, I hope they are simple to answer:

1. does a similar 'practice effect' apply to the 'assembly' of a particular craft out of parts? from experiment it seemed like building a saved craft and building a 'new' one that is the same takes the same time.
2. is there any practice effect gained from using parts from the inventory?
3. when does the practice effect kick in? and what's the rational, I could see the rational for when built as 'we know how to build it better now', actually flying it might feed into reliability or something:
   1. when the build is done?
   2. when it's launched?
   3. when it's flown (engines run etc)
4. are the practice effects of multiple build tracks independent? I could see a rational either way (shared experience vs it's the team that builds skill)
5. if you have multiple build tracks, fast and slow say, then does the practice effect from the fast track modify the build time of the slow track builds in progress? I can see it would be hard/impossible to decide what had been built so far in track 2, but I guess you are making a decision like then when you 'modify' a build in progress.
6. is there any way to speed up roll out?

[magico13]

9 hours ago, DBowman said:

Hi I'm just getting  to grips with how the mod works, 79 pages of posts - very successful.

80 now Though I'm pretty sure half of them are me responding to people!

I'll do my best to answer your questions, but if I'm misunderstanding a question (or you have further questions) let me know. What you're calling the "practice effect" I call the "build effect". Same difference, but I'll use the latter since that's what I'm used to.

The way times are calculated is a bit confusing because it isn't a linear combination based on the parts. Each part contributes a small amount to the total "Effective Cost" (where the amount is defined by the EffectivePartFormula), then the total "Effective Cost" is processed into a build time. The precise way that works is defined by the Preset, but from here on out I'll assume you're using the Default Preset.

Where the Build Effect comes into play is in determining the Effective Cost of a part. By default that's "min([C]/( [ I]+ ([ B]*([ U]+1))), [C])". Translated to words that says: either the dry cost, or the dry cost divided by the sum of the Inventory Effect and the Build Effect times the number of times the part has been built +1, whichever is smaller. The Inventory Effect is 0 if the part isn't stored in the inventory, or 100 otherwise. The version of the build effect is defined to be 1 in the Preset. tracks how many times the part has been built before now (more on that in a second). We can basically reduce that to "[C]/([ B]+1)" which shows that every time you use a part that has been used before, the effective cost is reduced. The first few builds have a much bigger effect than later ones. You might then assume that using the exact same parts 4 times will reduce the build time to 1/4 of normal, but the final formula (the BPFormula) has a square root in it, so the final build time will only be 1/2 of normal. You need 16 builds to get to 1/4. Also, due to the weighting non-used parts contribute way higher to the overall build time, so adding a gravioli detector or other new piece of equipment to a build can have a huge effect on the times.

The way the data is stored is just "part name : count". Every time you finish a build of a vessel, all the unique parts are found and their tracker is increased by one. So if you build a 1000 part ship out of hitchhiker containers that will only count as one build and won't be very useful. That tracker doesn't care about how you arrange the parts, or if you've used them before, all it does is increase the number by one. That number is the one that's grabbed by the variable above. The tracker also doesn't care if the part came from the inventory (the inventory is an almost identical system that's just "part name : count" and doesn't track any additional data). The rationale for it being when finished is that the engineers have done 99% of the required work by then so they're familiar with how to put the pieces together again in the future. That also lets you build and scrap vessels when you have down time just to build up the inventory and the Build Effect tracker, for essentially free.

As you can guess from the simplistic setup of the tracker, everything is shared. In fact, as soon as a build completes any other builds have their build times recalculated to represent the new experience gain, so you'll see those ones speed up if they used common parts. I guess that answers number 5 as well. Note that the amount of time reduced is proportional to the amount completed, so it's most beneficial for something that just started building (closer to 0% the better). If something was 95% of the way done it won't magically be finished, but instead that remaining 5% might be reduced to more like 4%.

The only ways to speed up rollout are to build as small as possible (mass-wise. Build times are cost based, rollout is mass based) or use the smallest launchpad you can. If you're launching a 10 ton rocket, use a level 0 pad and your rollout/reconditioning will be super fast. That's all defined by the Preset as well.

 

(wow, the formatting got way screwed up. I can't actually remove the underline) fixed I hope

Edited February 12, 2016 by magico13

[DBowman]

4 hours ago, magico13 said:

I'll do my best to answer your questions

Great answers thanks. Can you just confirm that the build effect gets it count for a part incremented by one when the build finishes and does not require roll out or launch? hmm how do you scrap a built ship? I think I didn't see how and so was rolling out and launch & recover to watch the effect.

[magico13]

43 minutes ago, DBowman said:

Great answers thanks. Can you just confirm that the build effect gets it count for a part incremented by one when the build finishes and does not require roll out or launch? hmm how do you scrap a built ship? I think I didn't see how and so was rolling out and launch & recover to watch the effect.

Correct, the count increases as soon as a vessel is finished building and isn't related to rollout or launch. Scrapping a built ship (or in progress ship) is pretty simple: with the build list open and the ship visible, press the "*" button to bring up the Build List Plus window. One of the options in that window is "Scrap". There are numerous other options there too, like renaming the vessel or paying lots of funds to speed up construction.

 

By the way, all the formulas that KCT uses for any calculations are visible in the Preset window. A full description of them is available here. If you're the type who likes to tinker with things, you'll definitely want to check them out. Otherwise they might provide more insight into how KCT decides things (but I'll also gladly answer any questions you have).

[CatastrophicFailure]

Quick question. I'm playing with the 64 bit hack, and one of the known bugs in an inability to upgrade facilities like the launch pad without hacking the save file. 

 

Sooooooo... how do I go about doing this with the extra launchpads that KCT now enables? I promise to dutifully deduct the cost from my funds while I'm hacking. 

[magico13]

19 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Quick question. I'm playing with the 64 bit hack, and one of the known bugs in an inability to upgrade facilities like the launch pad without hacking the save file. 

 

Sooooooo... how do I go about doing this with the extra launchpads that KCT now enables? I promise to dutifully deduct the cost from my funds while I'm hacking. 

I haven't tried the KCT launchpads with the 64 bit hack, but you might need to adjust the KCT_LaunchPad's a bit. Each KCT_LaunchPad entry should have a "level = " property that you can change to set the level. There's a chance you won't need to make any tweaks for second/third/etc pads and might just have to fix the initial pad. Let me know if that does/doesn't work or if you need any other help.

[DiamondExcavater]

On 12 February 2016 at 4:59 PM, DBowman said:

79 pages of posts - very successful

In the old Forum there was way more posts ranging up to 100's, I am sure Magico remembers me...

2 questions though, addressed to Magico, when you launch things in simulation mode (i am fine with this error though) and the ship is too large for the launch pad or even the actual VAB/SPH it can still be launched in simulation, is this on purpose?

and the other question, could you add water take offs to SPH? so if clicking which launch pad to start from, or even in simulation options i would like to be able to start in the water, without using hyper edit...or is this already implemented and i haven't seen it?

Happy to still see this mod being worked on!!

[CatastrophicFailure]

9 hours ago, magico13 said:

I haven't tried the KCT launchpads with the 64 bit hack, but you might need to adjust the KCT_LaunchPad's a bit. Each KCT_LaunchPad entry should have a "level = " property that you can change to set the level. There's a chance you won't need to make any tweaks for second/third/etc pads and might just have to fix the initial pad. Let me know if that does/doesn't work or if you need any other help.

Yup, worked like a charm, launched a 300 ton rocket with no issues, thanx!

[foodman389]

Hi! First off I'd like to say that I love all the features that this mod implements, especially the simulated flight aspect. It has worked fine for the past month I've been using it, but just a couple hours ago, something really weird happened. I was setting the parameters for a simulated flight, and was filling in the "length of simulation" blank. I went to put in "1hr", but accidentally didn't put the "h", and the GUI immediately closed to this little rectangle. On the debug menu it says "format exception: unknown character: r" so it obviously had a problem with that. Every single thing else works perfectly fine still, I can build a craft, research tech, and they all go smoothly, but now, as soon as i try to click the "simulation" button, the GUI comes up as a thin rectangle that I can't do anything with. It's hard to explain, but hopefully the pictures help. Thanks in advance!

Edited February 15, 2016 by foodman389

[randomone]

Does anyone have any good config files for a decade-ish long SETI career from start to moon landing? I really like this mod because it allows you to naturally drift into transfer windows instead of launching everything within a week before sitting around for six months while a transfer window opens up but the construction times still only get me one or two windows before I get Mun landing, and thus I end up having to sit around wrapping again for optimal windows.

On a related subject are there any monthly/annual maintenance fee mods out there? Would mesh well with this I think

[magico13]

On 2/15/2016 at 2:24 AM, foodman389 said:

On the debug menu it says "format exception: unknown character: r" so it obviously had a problem with that. Every single thing else works perfectly fine still, I can build a craft, research tech, and they all go smoothly, but now, as soon as i try to click the "simulation" button, the GUI comes up as a thin rectangle that I can't do anything with. It's hard to explain, but hopefully the pictures help. Thanks in advance!

Uh oh, I'll need to "sanitize" that input better in the future.  If restarting the game doesn't fix it then you might need to make a small tweak in the save file: search for the string "SimulationTime" (without quotes) and change the value on the right side of the = to "0" (also without quotes). That should fix that issue. Until I can fix the parser, make sure to only use "y d h m s" and numbers or it might break again.

1 hour ago, randomone said:

Does anyone have any good config files for a decade-ish long SETI career from start to moon landing? I really like this mod because it allows you to naturally drift into transfer windows instead of launching everything within a week before sitting around for six months while a transfer window opens up but the construction times still only get me one or two windows before I get Mun landing, and thus I end up having to sit around wrapping again for optimal windows.

On a related subject are there any monthly/annual maintenance fee mods out there? Would mesh well with this I think

If you want to just multiply all the times by an amount you can tweak the Overall Multiplier. If you set it to 2, most things should take twice as long as normal. So if only a few months are passing and you want a few years to go by instead, you could set it to 10 or so. There's going to be a lot of timewarp involved then.

If nobody else has a good config for you and you want to tweak more than the Overall Multiplier, check out the Preset documentation and then I can help you come up with some configs.

 

As for your related subject: I think it meshes so well that I'm working with a few other mod authors to create just that. Check out BROKE, linked in my signature. It's still very WIP and I haven't been able to work on it for a while, but one of the other authors has been doing some great work on it recently. I'm also working on a "flight school" mod so you can have your kerbals take classes to earn XP in their downtime.

[Whovian41110]

Magico is there any way to un-upgrade a building?  I seem to have now gotten into spaceplanes and the build rate is abysmal at the SPH and stupidly fast at the VAB.

[magico13]

34 minutes ago, Whovian41110 said:

Magico is there any way to un-upgrade a building?  I seem to have now gotten into spaceplanes and the build rate is abysmal at the SPH and stupidly fast at the VAB.

You can reset the upgrades, but it requires you to spend a few upgrades to do so (nonpermanently). That's in the same GUI that you use to spend upgrades.

[Whovian41110]

Just now, magico13 said:

You can reset the upgrades, but it requires you to spend a few upgrades to do so (nonpermanently). That's in the same GUI that you use to spend upgrades.

I'm in sandbox mode and the reset isn't working i think because I spent all the upgrad points on the VAB

[magico13]

24 minutes ago, Whovian41110 said:

I'm in sandbox mode and the reset isn't working i think because I spent all the upgrad points on the VAB

If you don't have any remaining upgrade points you'll have to make some changes in the Preset to either give yourself more upgrades or to remove the cost of resetting.

More upgrades is easier: open the KCT settings and find the "starting upgrades" section, change the 15,15,45 to 15,15,X where X is the number of upgrades you want to have, then save it. You could just do that rather than resetting if you wanted.

[legoclone09]

@magico13 Can you uplaoad this to spacedock.info? It isn't up there yet so it doesn't work on CKAN.

[magico13]

52 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

@magico13 Can you uplaoad this to spacedock.info? It isn't up there yet so it doesn't work on CKAN.

I was going to wait for another release, but I may as well just do it now. Now uploaded to Space Dock, will hopefully be back on CKAN in a day or two.

[legoclone09]

8 hours ago, magico13 said:

I was going to wait for another release, but I may as well just do it now. Now uploaded to Space Dock, will hopefully be back on CKAN in a day or two.

Ok, thanks!

[CatastrophicFailure]

Uhg I hate this forum editor sometimes. Anyways...

@magico13 I'm suddenly having a bit of a problem:

[EXC 15:33:18.610] FormatException: Invalid format.
	System.Double.Parse (System.String s, NumberStyles style, IFormatProvider provider)
	System.Double.Parse (System.String s)
	KerbalConstructionTime.KCT_Utilities.ParseTimeString (System.String timeString, Boolean toUT)
	KerbalConstructionTime.KCT_GUI.DrawSimulationConfigure (Int32 windowID)
	UnityEngine.GUILayout+LayoutedWindow.DoWindow (Int32 windowID)
	UnityEngine.GUI.CallWindowDelegate (UnityEngine.WindowFunction func, Int32 id, UnityEngine.GUISkin _skin, Int32 forceRect, Single width, Single height, UnityEngine.GUIStyle style)

I'm getting the above and I try to do a simulation in orbit with a specified inclination. Nothing else happens, clicking the Simulate button does nothing other than popping this up in the log. Have to exit the game & come back in to get simulations working again. Going to try without the inclination thing now, "normal" simulations work just fine.

ETA: Confirmed, it's the inclination field doing it. Can simulate into equatorial orbit just fine, 51* inclination breaks the game.

Edited February 21, 2016 by CatastrophicFailure

[magico13]

If that error is right then I apparently told the inclination field to run through the time parser... That shouldn't make an error though if you're just entering numbers. I'll check it and get it fixed in the next release (there are several parser related errors I need to fix)

[CatastrophicFailure]

55 minutes ago, magico13 said:

If that error is right then I apparently told the inclination field to run through the time parser... That shouldn't make an error though if you're just entering numbers. I'll check it and get it fixed in the next release (there are several parser related errors I need to fix)

I'm running the 64 bit hack, if that makes any difference. Other than that everything with  KCT seems to work perfectly. Thanx for the help.

[The Pfaffanater]

Can you update the CKAN for your mod to utilize SpaceDock not KerbalStuff now please

[magico13]

1 hour ago, The Pfaffanater said:

Can you update the CKAN for your mod to utilize SpaceDock not KerbalStuff now please

Check like 5 posts above yours I just added it to Space Dock, now I need the CKAN organizers to update the netkan file. It'll likely take a day or two.

 

Edit: Actually, I just checked. The netkan file was updated about 3 hours ago. It should be on CKAN by now.

Edited February 22, 2016 by magico13

[eberkain]

The science points gained during construction, I'm assuming they only apply to new parts that need constructed.  Is there a log that shows how much science you get from each build?  I know there is a popup that shows when construction is completed on a vessel, is that data anywhere else?.  

[magico13]

17 minutes ago, eberkain said:

The science points gained during construction, I'm assuming they only apply to new parts that need constructed.  Is there a log that shows how much science you get from each build?  I know there is a popup that shows when construction is completed on a vessel, is that data anywhere else?.  

It's based on the total BP value of the craft and only works for vessels that haven't finished building (ie, editing a build that is in storage nets no science). There's no log anywhere that tracks that, but you can estimate it from the Research rate and the BP total listed in the editor. If your rate is 3 science per 86400 BP and the vessel is worth 172800 BP then you'll get 6 science when it completes. The BP value can change during construction though if another build using some of the same parts completes first.