So.... What's with the resources?

[Strainborm]

If I remember right, Squad has been working on mine-able and convert-able resources system a while ago, originally planned to be implemented all the way back in 0.19. They even showed us a tree diagram of how it would work.

And then I read the PC Gamer's article on Squad's plans on KSP 1.0, and I saw this quote:

"The resources thing was an unfortunate realization that the game was not only not particularly fun to play through, but also was pulling the game horribly out of scope."

I guess I missed the news. So what happened with that idea? I personally would love to have all sorts of these resources to manage Of course there are mods like Kethane and Karbonite, but they're not that hard to manage. I would love to face the complexity of the proposed system, where for a some product you need more than just one raw resource and one super converter. That, in my opinion, would create an entirely new side to playing KSP. And think about all possibilities with new contract system Contracts like "Recover a sample of Propellium from Mun". You could do SCIENCE with those as well! "You took a surface sample, and you notice that it has tiny green specs all over it. Is that Nitronite? It sure does look like mint ice cream!" and BAM, you discovered a Nitronite hotspot

I don't know why Squad ditched that idea, but they should definitely have another look at it.

But meanwhile, can somebody please explain to me why they didn't do it in the first place? Anything is much appreciated

Edited September 4, 2014 by Vanamonde

[Guest]

I don't know why Squad ditched that idea, but they should definitely have another look at it.

But meanwhile, can somebody please explain to me why they didn't do it in the first place? Anything is much appreciated

You literally quoted the reason why SQUAD ditched the idea:

"The resources thing was an unfortunate realization that the game was not only not particularly fun to play through, but also was pulling the game horribly out of scope."

[Xaiier]

They implemented a resources feature and found it to be not fun to play with, so they ditched the idea. This caused quite a stir in the community as a lot of people were really looking forward to it, and it's still a somewhat touchy subject.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/content/239--KerbalKon-Announce

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61712-How-important-is-a-resource-system-to-you?p=843999&viewfull=1#post843999

Edited September 4, 2014 by Xaiier
links

[Frozen_Heart]

As Squad isn't going to add this I really want to see someone make a mod that follows this tree.

[Sky_walker]

As Squad isn't going to add this I really want to see someone make a mod that follows this tree.

Well, there are mods like Kethane that already deal with resources and prove that SQUAD was mistaken with their assessment and resources not only can be incredibly fun but also add whole new dimension to the gameplay that perfectly fits the main scope of a game - one of a major reasons being that bases on another planets start to make sense with these mods.

However there is no mod that would follow the tree as pictured above.

[Frozen_Heart]

Well, there are mods like Kethane that already deal with resources and prove that SQUAD was mistaken with their assessment and resources not only can be incredibly fun but also add whole new dimension to the gameplay that perfectly fits the main scope of a game - one of a major reasons being that bases on another planets start to make sense with these mods.

However there is no mod that would follow the tree as pictured above.

I've used Kethane and Karbonite in the past but both are only a single resource.

[cantab]

KSP Interstellar might be the closest thing.

Anyway, one thing to like about KSP is that when you're learning to play the game, you're actually learning an approximation of real rocket science. A fictional resources system wouldn't enhance that.

[Sky_walker]

TAC life support adds few more. Universal storage also helps.

Though as said - there is no mod that reproduces full resource tree as described in the concept.

[psyper]

I created a little bit of complexity to Kethane with Kethane+ but nowhere near that of the diagram you posted. However, it wouldn't be impossible to create something along those lines. Kethane is pretty restrictive in the types of models you can use for it (you can't re-texture the models and publish it as a modification to the mod for starters) but kerbonite is looking pretty malleable in that respect and when I get a couple of days when I get bored of playing ksp again and want to work on making kerbonite more complicated then I might give that diagram a go!

[tater]

Within the scope of a space program, at least from my interaction with guys who do this sort of thing for a living, the principal resource concerns are Oxygen, Hydrogen, and stuff like lunar regolith (either as shielding, or even concrete). The first two are both oxidizer/fuel and life support. Unless they add construction, the latter is not really required.

From a game standpoint, you don't require anyone to mine at all, since they have everything needed on Kermin. It could be an option on the Mun, though.

[Sky_walker]

Right now KSP doesn't even require anyone to leave Kerbin atmosphere. In campaign you can complete a whole research tree on a planet itself. So I wouldn't be too worried about devs ever forcing anyone into mining. Even if they would implement resources as they initially planned to.

[tater]

Yeah, that was sort of my point. It creates the possibility of a more open-ended system. Regarding "scope," it is certainly good fodder for a "Final Frontier" add-on (paid) to KSP, that adds asteroid mining, etc.

[EdFred]

Looking at that proposed-but-now-scrapped resource tree, I would not be interested in the game at all if that were implemented.

I also don't do the Kethane mod.

[Sky_walker]

Looking at that proposed-but-now-scrapped resource tree, I would not be interested in the game at all if that were implemented.

I also don't do the Kethane mod.

Even if you wouldn't have to have anything in common with it? Ever?

Cause as far as I see - everything with exception of life support doesn't affect your gameplay in any way unless you want it to. And a life support, depending on a balance, would propably be unimportant unless you an interplanetary flight or want to build a manned space station without a large stack of resources onboard or a closed ecosystem.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sky_walker

[EdFred]

Even if you wouldn't have to have anything in common with it? Ever?

Cause as far as I see - everything with exception of life support doesn't affect your gameplay in any way unless you want it to. And a life support, depending on a balance, would propably be unimportant unless you an interplanetary flight or want to build a manned space station without a large stack of resources onboard or a closed ecosystem.

Yeah. Years back I bought Imperium Galatica II. It was Sim City meets Civilization meets Total Annihilation. It was waaaaaaaaaay too intertwined. I attempted to play it once, and it was so ridiculously hard to manage everything, I uninstalled it immediately.

[eurybaric]

Even if you wouldn't have to have anything in common with it? Ever?

Cause as far as I see - everything with exception of life support doesn't affect your gameplay in any way unless you want it to. And a life support, depending on a balance, would propably be unimportant unless you an interplanetary flight or want to build a manned space station without a large stack of resources onboard or a closed ecosystem.

True. But on the other hand, for us people that do not care about it, it would also mean that a huge amount of development time from SQUAD's part would be wasted for literally nothing for us to benefit from. I mean you said it. wouldn't affect gameplay if you don't touch it. Well then I'd rather they put those dev hours into improving the game (in the countless areas that are still in dire need of improving!) and advancing towards a stable 1.0 Release version.

Also, we have all the tools (and more!) to mod in resource systems as complex as we like, as is already proven by Interstellar, Kethane, and Karbonite. So let the modders keep doing the awesome things they're doing, and let SQUAD build up and polish the core game like they are I'd say.

Does that make sense?

Cheers!

P.S: I'm not hating on resources or anything here. I'm just raising a point

[Sky_walker]

True. But on the other hand, for us people that do not care about it, it would also mean that a huge amount of development time from SQUAD's part would be wasted for literally nothing for us to benefit from.

Oh yea, I know the feeling...

*glares at the multiplayer... or spaceplane parts...*

You are perfectly right in what you're saying, however that's true for pretty much everything in KSP. As many people say - Devs could stop developing KSP right now and just leave everything to the modding community. There always will be a group of people who won't care about some aspects of the game and find time spend on it to be wasted.

Spaceplane parts are most obvious example - there are dozens of mods that cover it in a full scope, far above and beyond anything devs will ever implement. So by your logic - why spend time doing that? Majority of players came in to build rockets, not planes.

Does that make sense?

Cheers!

P.S: I'm not hating on resources or anything here. I'm just raising a point

Of course it does And it is a very valid point. But again - spaceplanes, multiplayer, etc. Every coin has two sides.

Yeah. Years back I bought Imperium Galatica II. It was Sim City meets Civilization meets Total Annihilation. It was waaaaaaaaaay too intertwined. I attempted to play it once, and it was so ridiculously hard to manage everything, I uninstalled it immediately.

Sorry, I don't get the compassion.

But anyway - TA - good game. I always smile seeing people who still remember it. True classic.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Aragosnat]

Yeah. Bit of a shame that such could not be added to the game. Even though in a sense they have a start of one. I'm looking at you Funds. Sadly even though games like "Space Engineer" show that there is indeed people who enjoy such an added challange.

But, I can see where it would not be fun-ish. The lack or x material means no ship built = no fun. That I can competely understand. The second (no fun for them at least) is figuring out if the resources is finite or not as well as how to distrubite them in a sane way that is easish for them to implement (this for myself would be the least fun as you would need to have every moon and planet there is with a unique-ish resourse table and hey still have yet to do biomes for outside Kerbin's SOI). Third no fun aspect is a signing resource values and where or not it takes time to build/refine said part/fuel.

Right now it looks like a lot of work for modders to do. I know Kethane/Kerbinite mod show it could be done in a simplistic way. Regardless. It would be fun to build a base on a moon, planet or roid (well at least roids can be used to transmite science) that does more then look pretty and eats up time setting up.

Edit: Also the devs have set up a way for them to allow use to play with such unfun concepts too. Since they made it possable to play with just the Science aspect and not the funds.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Aragosnat

[dlrk]

This is more or less implemented in mods. KSPI, MKS/OKS, Asteroid Recycling/Cities, and Extra planetary Launch pads implement various fuels, construction resources, life support resources.

For whatever reason, or rather, to appeal to the nonexistent 'simple' crowd, Squad decided that resources are too complicated. They were wrong, in the same way they are wrong about aerodynamics

[Scotius]

KSP Interstellar might be the closest thing.

Anyway, one thing to like about KSP is that when you're learning to play the game, you're actually learning an approximation of real rocket science. A fictional resources system wouldn't enhance that.

As far as real-life space programs go, nuclear engines are fictional too (as in, we never flew one in space). Also Klaw devices, uber-powerful ion engines, fuel lines and spaceplanes able to reach space using only turbojets. And you are scoffing at fictional resources?

[Red Iron Crown]

I am incredibly glad that the overly complex spaghetti resource flow model never got implemented. I don't want KSP to turn into a scavenger hunt, resources should just be a way to reprovision ships with fuel, MP and life support at remote locations.

If ISRU is ever implemented (big if), I'd like it to have the following qualities:

- Drilling/processing possible by unfocused craft, I don't want to stare at a resource ship while it does its thing.

- A single harvestable resource, water.

- Inexhaustible resource deposits

- Processing of that resource into liquid fuel (LH2), oxidizer (LO2), and monopropellant (H2O2); plus a life support resource if required.

This strikes me as a reasonable balance between realism and accessible, not-overly-complex gameplay.

[dlrk]

It's already implemented in mods. KSPI has almost exactly what you described.

[Endersmens]

So, nobody has brought this up yet I don't think.

It was recently announced that KSP would have a "difficulty" panel on starting a new save, and some options would be changeable during play.

It seems that it would make a lot of sense to implement the resource system that they had already worked on, and maybe a life support system too, and basically that be hard mode. (Not really, as in it wont be called "hard mode" just that it makes gameplay more difficult)

For you people who think those systems are redundant, unnecessary, or just dislikable, just leave the resources and/or life support boxes unchecked.

For you who want a little more realistic game, check life support.

For you who want a complicated, fun, "giving bases a purpose" game, check resources.

If I were SQUAD, I would take a look at doing this. But i'm not SQUAD, so don't take that opinion too hard. I'm sure there are hundreds of reasons they don't do this that I don't know about. But that's just my opinion on the matter.

[Francois424]

The way I see this, is thru a menu at start when you select to play a new game type... add-in the category "CUSTOM", in which you check what you want.

Want contract and Kethane only (no science, life support, or re-entry ? don't check them).

That what you make up your own game from stock things (as opposed to mods, that if unmaintained can screw you over).

I don't see why they don't add it as an option. Loving Kethane personally. Now If I could just suck less at docking... urrgh.

[cantab]

IMHO a good idea for resources would be to have a wide range of real raw materials, with varying availability by celestial, but to keep the number of "steps" involved in getting from resource to useful product low, and have plenty of overlap so that with the right equipment most places can produce most materials. That would give some rich variety and interest, but avoid having to criss-cross the system just to do something useful.