Meat Eater vs. Vegetarian discussion thread II: The Second Great Debate

[MedwedianPresident]

Here is the second version of the Meat Eater vs. Vegetarian thread; I have decided to try it again.

Some rules this time that will prevent a derailing of this thread:

1. Please make legible arguments, with information supporting them.

2. Please do not insult other members of the forum on this thread.

3. If you are inclined to violently or insultingly participate in this thread, then simply don't post.

4. Do not derail this topic; only talk about the topic of this topic and about nothing unrelated to the topic.

5. This is a serious discussion, so good grammar, long posts, and good arguments are received very friendlily even by the opposing site.

6. Please note that this discussion's main objective is a debate; nobody is forced to convert to vegetarianism or to meat eating (if they are a vegetarian) if their side loses.

7. Anybody acting in an immature way will be blacklisted from this thread; this means that their posts are to be ignored and they generally are prohibited from posting on this thread.

8. I am requesting the Moderators to help me to enforce those rules.

9. If I think that the discussion is getting off the rails, I may request moderators to lock this thread.

This thread covers a year-long debate in the world: the debate between meat eaters and vegetarians. Arguments exist for both sides; and there are plenty of reasons to eat or not to eat meat. Let the debate begin.

My Argument No.1

Supporting animal welfare does not necessarily mean to abstain from animal products or their meat. A person who simply abstains from meat does not do any change in the industry, while a person who eats meat that comes from lucky animals that were treated with respect and slaughtered with honour actually supports the industry of animal-friendly meat. This industry involves meat production like it happened in the past: the animals are given large pasture zones, are able to go by their natural diet instead of being fed some sort of genetically modified corn.

Meat from this type of industry not only has a smaller ecological impact and is more natural, but has a better quality and taste: if you eat for example, lamb ribs that come from a countryside farm, you will never, ever, again want to eat "Meat" that you are not even sure comes from animals and not from some sort of rubber-plastic mix.

The change to this type of industry is already proceeding at great paces in Europe, where at least 6 out of 10 meat cuts in the supermarket are labeled "Bio" or "Cage-free".

[RizzoTheRat]

I'm a farmers son (arable and sheep). Quite a few of the more militant vegetarians think we should stop eating meat, but still seem to think there would be sheep/cattle/pigs around without the meat industry. Currently in the UK farmers get less for a fleece than it costs to shear a sheep, so no meat industry would mean wool prices would have to skyrocket to reach the point where people can justify breeding them for wool only. The countryside would look rather different too with no grass meadows.

Besides, if god hadn't wanted man to eat animals she wouldn't have made them so tasty.

[Sky_walker]

Besides, if god hadn't wanted man to eat animals she wouldn't have made them so tasty.

Sir, you have won this topic.

[Streetwind]

I think "meat eater versus vegetarian" is a very loaded setup because it makes all sorts of implications about both parties.

My stance on this has always been and will always be: humans are omnivores. We can make do with whatever we find, for some time. That's what allowed us to survive when food was scarce and let us come out on top of the natural selection process over time (together with other factors, of course). As omnivores, it benefits us to partake in the variety available to us. There is no biological reason to abstain from certain foods, so long as they are not poisonous to us (don't eat dem red shrooms, kids!). In fact, variety ensures that we get all the necessary nutrients we require to not only survive, but to be healthy and thriving.

If you are a vegan who only gets by through taking supplements to make up for what your food lacks, you're doing it wrong. At the same time, if you're a steak connoiseur who's struggling with high blood cholesterol, high body fat and vitamin shortages, you're also doing it wrong. If your chosen diet allows you to lead a healthy, happy life without the need for additional supplements, then you're doing it right, regardless of what food products it contains. Within that frame, you have room for ideological choices - you can abstain from animal products if you like, or you can skip that icky green spinach if you like. Just don't lie to yourself about your choices and your health. If you get cramps regularly, you're probably short on magnesium - don't bother chalking it up to some sort of "being born with it" crap. Put that steak away and eat a goddamn batman banana now and then. You'll feel better afterwards!

It's also important to find out what works for you, personally. People differ to some extent - both genetically, and habitually. That is why some diets work to make your friend's pounds plummet, but you can't get anywhere with it. That doesn't mean that diet is bad, it simply means it's not the one suited to your body and your lifestyle. The same counts for general eating habits. If you make the choice to eat a certain way - be it vegan, vegetarian or all-fish-all-the-time - don't make that choice because others tell you they feel great while doing it. Make the choice because you feel great while doing it. And if you don't, then don't be afraid to make a change, without letting ideology get in the way.

And thus you will make peace with yourself.

[Scotius]

You won't find many vegetarians\vegans among farmers, miners, factory workers etc. A paper-pusher spending working hours typing away on the keyboard and polishing the chair with his behind can eat tofu, lettuce and the rest of plant stuff. Hard working man needs proteins, fats and hydrocarbons - a steak, potatoes and a serving of vegetables in other words

[peadar1987]

You won't find many vegetarians\vegans among farmers, miners, factory workers etc. A paper-pusher spending working hours typing away on the keyboard and polishing the chair with his behind can eat tofu, lettuce and the rest of plant stuff. Hard working man needs proteins, fats and hydrocarbons - a steak, potatoes and a serving of vegetables in other words

Not true. I haven't eaten meat in 15 years. I can run faster than most people I know over 5k and 10k, I sail dinghies at an international level. None of these things are harmed by me eating "tofu, lettuce and the rest of plant stuff". Nothing gets my back up more than some overweight slob who shovels kebabs and burgers into themselves getting all sanctimonious about how my vegetarianism is "unhealthy". (This isn't to imply that you, personally, are an overweight slob, but I have encountered exactly this kind of hypocrisy many times).

[RizzoTheRat]

I passed a girl in a "Vegan Runners" top the other day, it was a good incentive for me to run a bit faster and fly the flag for omnivorism

[Duxwing]

My qualms about eating animals have increased with the years. I know that eating them serves no biological or chemical purpose, that my tastes would change if I stopped eating meat long enough, and that our descendants eventually might consider slaughtering and eating animals hideous and barbaric. Therefore, only one question remains: do I value animal life enough to endure a few weeks' discomfort and occasional embarrassment thereafter? I intuit an affirmative answer.

-Duxwing

[Brethern]

My qualms about eating animals have increased with the years. I know that eating them serves no biological or chemical purpose, that my tastes would change if I stopped eating meat long enough, and that our descendants eventually might consider slaughtering and eating animals hideous and barbaric. Therefore, only one question remains: do I value animal life enough to endure a few weeks' discomfort and occasional embarrassment thereafter? I intuit an affirmative answer.

-Duxwing

There's a book, called eat right 4 your blood type. Goes over allot of good information.

[ZedNova]

Call me what you like, but i love Hamburgers and Philly Cheesesteak sandwiches too much to be vegetarian.

[RizzoTheRat]

Call me what you like, but i love Hamburgers and Philly Cheesesteak sandwiches too much to be vegetarian.

Think how much you might enjoy real meat rather than processed stuff then

I think foal or kudu are probably my favourite meat. Very tender and lots of flavour.

In a hotel restaurant in Iceland a couple of years ago the chap at the table behind me had had a conversation with the waitress about the vegetarian options. I assume from that he was a vegetarian and therefore probably not too impressed when the waitress brought the food to the wrong tables and tried to give him my Minke whale.

[theend3r]

Eating plants is naturally worse than eating animals. During the day plants use carbon dioxide to produce oxygen, animals use oxygen to produce methane. Guess what's better for nature and thus humanity in general?

[MedwedianPresident]

My Argument No.2

Let's take a look at the length of the digestive tracts in various species. The length of a Lion's (Carnivore) digestive tract is 7 meters, while a Cow's (Herbivore) digestive tract has a monstrous length of 33 and a half meters. Carnivores naturally have shorter digestive tracts so that meat can be digested quickly and efficiently.

Now: a Human's digestive tracts' length is 9 meters. Closer to the Lion, right?

7 m

33.5 m

9 m, closer to the Lion than to the Cow

Edited October 13, 2014 by MedwedianPresident

[NASAFanboy]

I feel sorry for the plant but not the animal. It's gotten to the point that I won't slice fruit because I think it's cruel to do so, but I can't envision my meat being part of an animal, so no probelm with meat eating (Otherwise, I frankly don't care. It's someone else doing the killing and butchering).

[Duxwing]

There's a book, called eat right 4 your blood type. Goes over allot of good information.

Diet need not be adjusted for blood type: Dr. Adamo's hypothesis lacks "support by clinical trials" (Wikipedia).

-Duxwing

[MedwedianPresident]

Also, dear Vegetarians: Try Lamb. My favourite meat, especially the ribs, will convert you into a full-grown Carnivore with the first bite.

[rtxoff]

... while a person who eats meat that comes from lucky animals that were treated with respect and slaughtered with honour actually supports the industry of animal-friendly meat...

Sorry what? Slaughtered with honour??? You could slaughter painless and quick and without letting the cattle suffer but not with honour.

However the consumer has almost no chance to verify it. They can and will write everything in the product information if it is required to sell something.

If you really want the animals not to suffer then abstain from eating meat just don't think anyone will hold on to any conventions when slaughtering animals.

I am eating meat but i won't lie to myself how things are managed in this matter.

Also there are some videos on the inet where slaughtering of animals is showed. I will spare you posting them here bit if actually anyone wan't to see them just google for them just be warned that there is a chance that you will stop eating meat after watching them.

[Javster]

The most idiotic argument for anti-vegetarianism I've ever heard was "The animal's dead, refusing to eat it isn't going to bring it back"

Personally, I eat meat, but I sometimes consider the idea of putting an image of the animal you're eating on the packet of meat. Just so you can visualise the animal.

[MedwedianPresident]

Sorry what? Slaughtered with honour??? You could slaughter painless and quick and without letting the cattle suffer but not with honour.

However the consumer has almost no chance to verify it. They can and will write everything in the product information if it is required to sell something.

If you really want the animals not to suffer then abstain from eating meat just don't think anyone will hold on to any conventions when slaughtering animals.

I am eating meat but i won't lie to myself how things are managed in this matter.

Also there are some videos on the inet where slaughtering of animals is showed. I will spare you posting them here bit if actually anyone wan't to see them just google for them just be warned that there is a chance that you will stop eating meat after watching them.

A slaughter with honour is a slaughter that is maybe not necessarily painless but where the person slaughtering the animal will thank the animal for donating it's life in order to feed humans and that the animal is not treated like a "product". But painless slaughters certainly are a good thing and are possible for example by fitting animals out with "kill chips" that automatically make the animal unconscious and then stop the heartbeat when the slaughter weight is reached.

Abstaining from meat is IMPOSSIBLE without serious health problems. Cutting meat from your diet is just as fatal as cutting vegetables from your diet. Just like you need to occasionally eat salad and other green stuff, you regularly need to eat meat.

And yes, the argument that it is hard to replace meat without doing any harm to your body is good. Lentils and similar plants may even include more protein that meat, but it is a different protein. Animal protein is REQUIRED for a healthy diet; there is no way to synthetize large amounts of animal protein without killing animals.

In-Vitro meat will not be completely developed until 2050, but I think that by then, ecologically substainable and effective methods of breeding animals without doing harm to the environment will be invented. My personal idea is an idea that could be used in the future when humans colonize space: making entire planets giant pastures for animals, entirely robotized with robots that observe the animals and locate them in the giant pastures to slaughter them when the slaughter age comes. The methane produced by for example cows is then filtered out from the air and put into flasks to be exported or even used as a fuel for the planet's robots, that in turn will automatically breed animals and perform the needed medical care. The animals are automatically butchered, and the meat, which is probably eco-friendly, is packed into spaceships to be transported to the shops located on the various planets.

By the way, I have read that Vegetarians break their bones more often because important proteins that strengthen the bones are located in meat. Vegans break their bones even more often because I don't know of many calcium-rich plants.

Edited October 13, 2014 by MedwedianPresident

[rtxoff]

A slaughter with honour is a slaughter that is maybe not necessarily painless but where the person slaughtering the animal will thank the animal for donating it's life in order to feed humans.

I can't imagine any scenario in our world where something like that will be practiced. You can't expect a slaughterhouse which has to slaughter 1000 animals a day to do something like that. The slaughterman certainly aren't going to show any emotions in that act because in this case it would be the wrong job for them. Also don't expect them to spread the carpet and start to pray for their prey.

Humans slaughtered animals since there are humans on this world and it is a normal thing to do for us, there's is no reason to be sorry for the cattle. Their purpose for beeing allowed to live for a while is to feed us.

And as somebody already pointed out here, they are yummie.

[Nuke]

I feel sorry for the plant but not the animal. It's gotten to the point that I won't slice fruit because I think it's cruel to do so, but I can't envision my meat being part of an animal, so no probelm with meat eating (Otherwise, I frankly don't care. It's someone else doing the killing and butchering).

but the killing and butchering is the fun part. without it you wouldn't have fun games like dodge internal organ, or that cool sound that the meat grinder makes. it also makes for great social interaction when everyone is gathered around a carcass, covered in blood and brandishing a large knife or other sharp implement. then before all that you get to play with guns in the woods. everyone should go hunting at least once.

[Nuke]

its not normal to kill humans (in most parts of the world). but its hard to go through a day without either killing something directly or through proxy (such as when you buy steak). you wash your hands and you are killing germs. you walk on your lawn and your killing plants and insects. if you are trying to stop a bug infestation you usually end up resorting to chemical warfare and a mouse trap is like a medieval execution/torture device. even if you are some kind of buddist super hippy you are probibly either killing something or supporting the killing of something indirectly just carrying out your day to day activities. food for the most part was alive at some point. many crops require the killing of the plant to produce food. even something as mundane as eating yogurt involves eating and killing live bacteria. in cases where the plant is not outright killed, it is still harmed during harvest. you literally pull pieces off of it. how would you like it if i hacked off your arm and started eating it, after all i didnt kill anything? you can go out of your way to reduce the impact your life has on other life forms but at the end of the day you still require the consumption of other life forms to survive.

[technicalfool]

By the way, I have read that Vegetarians break their bones more often because important proteins that strengthen the bones are located in meat. Vegans break their bones even more often because I don't know of many calcium-rich plants.

There is plenty of calcium in broccoli. B vitamins (including B12) are available from many non-animal sources, particularly fungii. Your body breaks down proteins into amino acids before building them back up into proteins again. Plants are the best source of amino acids out there.

And I'm not going to tell you what to eat.

However I am going to close this thread before it gets any worse.