[1.3.0] OPT Space Plane v2.0.1 - updated 29/07/2017

[Starwaster]

@captinjoehenry @TheKurgan

Those screenshots don't really provide much useful drag information. Specifically the Aerodynamic Forces Overlay. What you really need to be looking at is the aerodynamic debugging available in the action menus (alt-F12 -> Physics -> Display Aero Data In Action Menus)

With that enabled you can see if a part is shielded or not in the cargo bay (will say 'Shielded: False' if it's not shielded)

I'm looking at the K parts right now and I do see contents being shielded in the cargo bay.

I can also see that K parts that are attached to cockpits and other K parts ARE properly drag occluded, but it's also dependent on how MUCH of the part is occluded. The J-K adapters for instance will naturally have parts of them exposed to the airflow. And angle of attack plays a part there because obviously if you're angled up a bit (even half a fraction of a degree) then the belly is getting airflow. It doesn't take much to get you a nice fat juicy red drag vector (drag is based on velocity squared after all)

[K.Yeon]

On 2017-5-18 at 5:31 AM, captinjoehenry said:

I have 1 bug and a suggestion.

First of all in the K cockpit I get the hexadecimal color code next to the text on most of the sliders:

Second it would be nice to be able to turn off alarms as the tumble alarm goes off when I am driving my space plane along  the ground and it is really really annoying in the cockpit view.

Third it would be awesome to have a H form cockpit.  As it is I use a 4m nose and an H drone core but it would be great if there was a proper cockpit

The hex on instrument means you just have a out dated ASET props and Rasterpropmonitor, just follow the install guide and reinstall them. And ill change the tumble alarm to something else. But personally it only turns on for a few seconds during take off.
As for new H parts, i can't promise anything yet sorry.

On 2017-5-20 at 3:09 AM, LukeTheYeti said:

Also I may have found an actual bug, I cannot re-enter the J Inline Boarding Ramp. No option to grab or board.so my kerbs are stuck outside

The best way to get on it is to have it lowered onto the ground, and have your kerbal walk onto the ramp and the board option should show up.
Keep in mind the airlock collider (area where the boarding option appears) is on the ramp, not near the little door inside... this can't be fixed as i have tried many times the current setup is the only way it works

On 2017-5-23 at 11:39 AM, ss8913 said:

@K.Yeon now that FAR is officially released, will there be an updated MM patch to address the OPT-FAR aero compatibility issues (especially the wings) ?

Yeah FAR will be supported for next patch

On 2017-5-25 at 6:23 AM, captinjoehenry said:

Better bug report for no aero shielding with K parts:

With a stock install with only OPT I made a simple K style space plane.  I then used the F12 aero display and there are drag lines for all of the k series parts even behind each other.  So there is no apparent aero shielding going on.  I then put a small monoprop tank inside of the space plane and the monoprop tank even though it was inside of the k series part also generated drag.  In addition the 3 engines on the k series tri coupler also generated drag even though they were behind the whole space plane.  The drag even persisted when the space plane was facing directly prograde in the atmosphere.  I could not find the log in any of the three places it should have been so I am not sure where to get it to include it here.

the whole space plane aero display showing drag on all three of the engines and the control surfaces even though they are behind the tail surface:

The K series fuel tank generating drag even though it is behind the k series cockpit:

The monoprop tank clipped inside the K series cockpit also producing drag.

This isn't a bug, it's more like the limitation of stock KSP aero physics... If you build a plane out of stock parts, same thing will happen. It seems the stock aero calculation add drag to parts even it's inline with another part. Im not exactly sure how it works but ksp seems to adjust this problem in some way so that the result is somewhat sensible.

Anyway if you embed a part into the k parts that's solid, it will calculate it the same way as the stacked parts. This is why i made the "hollow" versions of the k fuselage, if you put parts inside it, it will be shielded.

[Starwaster]

9 minutes ago, K.Yeon said:

This isn't a bug, it's more like the limitation of stock KSP aero physics... If you build a plane out of stock parts, same thing will happen. It seems the stock aero calculation add drag to parts even it's inline with another part. Im not exactly sure how it works but ksp seems to adjust this problem in some way so that the result is somewhat sensible.

Anyway if you embed a part into the k parts that's solid, it will calculate it the same way as the stacked parts. This is why i made the "hollow" versions of the k fuselage, if you put parts inside it, it will be shielded.

Actually, stock drag calculations aren't applying drag to 'inline' parts, except as appropriate for their angle of attack. If the parts are all the same size and the angle of attack is zero then they won't get any drag. 

As I said earlier, those red drag arrows that you can turn on do not tell you what you need to know when looking at a part's drag.:

Let's look at the rocket below: The action menus for both the nose cone on the front and the top most fuel tank on the stack are showing. Notice that the tank's YP and YN faces of its drag cube show 0.00 : 0.00. That means looking along its long axis (its Y axis) it has zero cross section exposed and its drag coefficient is zero. Looking at its drag you will see that is has much less drag than the nose cone. The only reason the tank has ANY drag right now is because of the angle of attack. What that means in terms of the drag cube is that one or both of either the X or Z faces are exposed so we're getting some drag from those. If the angle of attack had been zero then there would be no drag on the tank.

If I'd taken the time to load in an OPT craft with K parts, or any other parts, the results would be much the same.

So, what I'm trying to get across to people here, is that there actually isn't a problem at all. The drag that people seem to think is happening on the 'inline' parts just isn't happening like that. 

 

[stali79]

1 hour ago, Starwaster said:

Actually, stock drag calculations aren't applying drag to 'inline' parts, except as appropriate for their angle of attack. If the parts are all the same size and the angle of attack is zero then they won't get any drag. 

As I said earlier, those red drag arrows that you can turn on do not tell you what you need to know when looking at a part's drag.:

Let's look at the rocket below: The action menus for both the nose cone on the front and the top most fuel tank on the stack are showing. Notice that the tank's YP and YN faces of its drag cube show 0.00 : 0.00. That means looking along its long axis (its Y axis) it has zero cross section exposed and its drag coefficient is zero. Looking at its drag you will see that is has much less drag than the nose cone. The only reason the tank has ANY drag right now is because of the angle of attack. What that means in terms of the drag cube is that one or both of either the X or Z faces are exposed so we're getting some drag from those. If the angle of attack had been zero then there would be no drag on the tank.

If I'd taken the time to load in an OPT craft with K parts, or any other parts, the results would be much the same.

So, what I'm trying to get across to people here, is that there actually isn't a problem at all. The drag that people seem to think is happening on the 'inline' parts just isn't happening like that. 

 

if anything I am having the opposite issue of not enough drag (since installing the new FAR) takes FOREVER for my planes to slow down. I deorbit at a 45 degree Nose Up AoA from 100km and STILL have just under 2km/s speed at 15km altitude.I am just not having enough drag with such a high AoA on my deorbits.

[ss8913]

2 hours ago, K.Yeon said:

The hex on instrument means you just have a out dated ASET props and Rasterpropmonitor, just follow the install guide and reinstall them. And ill change the tumble alarm to something else. But personally it only turns on for a few seconds during take off.
As for new H parts, i can't promise anything yet sorry.

The best way to get on it is to have it lowered onto the ground, and have your kerbal walk onto the ramp and the board option should show up.
Keep in mind the airlock collider (area where the boarding option appears) is on the ramp, not near the little door inside... this can't be fixed as i have tried many times the current setup is the only way it works

Yeah FAR will be supported for next patch

This isn't a bug, it's more like the limitation of stock KSP aero physics... If you build a plane out of stock parts, same thing will happen. It seems the stock aero calculation add drag to parts even it's inline with another part. Im not exactly sure how it works but ksp seems to adjust this problem in some way so that the result is somewhat sensible.

Anyway if you embed a part into the k parts that's solid, it will calculate it the same way as the stacked parts. This is why i made the "hollow" versions of the k fuselage, if you put parts inside it, it will be shielded.

FAR allows you to fix the clipping/cargo bay drag problem.  In fact, I think FAR fixes that *inherently* based on how it works, without you having to change anything in this mod at all.

[stali79]

Mind you FAR is now useless anyway given that the day after they release it Squad drops 1.3....

[JadeOfMaar]

15 hours ago, K.Yeon said:

This isn't a bug, it's more like the limitation of stock KSP aero physics... If you build a plane out of stock parts, same thing will happen. It seems the stock aero calculation add drag to parts even it's inline with another part. Im not exactly sure how it works but ksp seems to adjust this problem in some way so that the result is somewhat sensible.

Anyway if you embed a part into the k parts that's solid, it will calculate it the same way as the stacked parts. This is why i made the "hollow" versions of the k fuselage, if you put parts inside it, it will be shielded.

14 hours ago, Starwaster said:

As I said earlier, those red drag arrows that you can turn on do not tell you what you need to know when looking at a part's drag.:

Indeed, the stock aero overlay is not to be fully trusted. This is old news. Be confident in your extra fuel and your TWR in your OPT spaceplane, and call it a day.  

As explained by Das Valdez on a stream a few nights ago, the way KSP visualizes a ship's drag model is this: Imagine you have a J cockpit and a J fuel tank, but a 2.5m tank between them. The frontal J body surfaces not covered by the connections to the 2.5m tank are always visible for drag calculation. Offsetting the parts to hide the 2.5m tank does not work. The game will still see what is effectively a barbell shape, not the conic shape you're making. Any radially attached part that's clipped and visibly hidden will remain exposed to drag unless it counts as shielded by a hollow fuselage or cargo bay.

About mods and KSP 1.3, if I may add my 2  ...I'm not riding that hype train and I'll wait and enjoy 1.2.2 until: 

1. I finish a grand tour mission.
2. Enough mods I use are confirmed to work in KSP 1.3.

...

And in other news it looks like I'll be regularly designing fancy crafts again, so... OPT Showroom hype!  I just built a space freighter/battleship.

 

[TheKurgan]

19 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

And in other news it looks like I'll be regularly designing fancy crafts again, so... OPT Showroom hype!  I just built a space freighter/battleship.

J___S!! that thing looks big!

Man... I have at least 2 dozen unique/purpose built OPT craft now, but nothing like that... all mine are space planes.

My "Galileo" is one of my favorite and most unique though

It's a super long range VTOL.

 

[SilverTime]

I just reinstalled this mod and for some reason, there is no option to run many of the OPT components with fuel. There is no option there, at all. I get nothing when I right click, or for cargo bay modules the fuel tank options are not there. I can't figure out what is causing this.

 

The parts I have confirmed this bug on are:

Main Wing B

Large Pylon

J Fuel Tank

J Bicoupler

J Connector Variant

Edited May 27, 2017 by SilverTime

[King Something]

1 hour ago, SilverTime said:

I just reinstalled this mod and for some reason, there is no option to run many of the OPT components with fuel. There is no option there, at all. I get nothing when I right click, or for cargo bay modules the fuel tank options are not there. I can't figure out what is causing this.

 

The parts I have confirmed this bug on are:

Main Wing B

Large Pylon

J Fuel Tank

J Bicoupler

J Connector Variant

Welcome to the forum! Please read the post below for details on how to report mod bugs:

 

[TheKurgan]

1 hour ago, SilverTime said:

I just reinstalled this mod and for some reason, there is no option to run many of the OPT components with fuel. There is no option there, at all. I get nothing when I right click, or for cargo bay modules the fuel tank options are not there. I can't figure out what is causing this.

Welcome to the Forums!! Good to see some new OPT space plane builders!

Here is what I would do if I was having this problem:

1. Delete the OPT folder

2. Delete the firespitter folder  (OPT uses the firespitter plugin for fuel config... I'm 97% sure lol)

3. Copy everything from the newest OPT install into the gamedata folder.

Start your game and try again.

It will work now... I'm 94% sure

[Alcentar]

The author does not work in Squad ??? It's strange. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Alcentar

[JadeOfMaar]

2 hours ago, SilverTime said:

I just reinstalled this mod and for some reason, there is no option to run many of the OPT components with fuel. There is no option there, at all. I get nothing when I right click, or for cargo bay modules the fuel tank options are not there. I can't figure out what is causing this.

Please go to the first post in this thread, read the red text and open the spoiler under that. Your answers are all there.

[SilverTime]

I tried the suggested fix with Firespitter, with no result. I have reinstalled this mod repeatedly, with no result. I have added the patches, again no result. I have spent about three hours over the course of two days just trying to figure out where to get information on this mod from this form, and to be frank I am completely burnt by the whole process. I don't know what is wrong.

I am not prepared to do surgery on this mod or my system to extract the necessary information and provide a step-by-step account of attempted fixes. The problem remains the same. The only lead I have at this point is problems with read-only settings. I found that the Steam appdata folders are set to read-only. For some reason the system is not allowing me to make these folders not read-only. This is what I have:

 

KSP: 1.3.0.1804 Windows 64bit

Problem: OTP components do not display fuel tank types or selection. No ability to adjust fuel tanks on all components 

Mods installed:

Firespitter 7 . 3 . 6 2 1 2 . 3 6 3 3 1

Module Manager 2.7.6.0

Reproduction steps:

Mutliple clean re-installs. Re-installs with patches included. 

Log:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5vegukb9b63thf/output_log.txt?dl=0

Edited May 29, 2017 by SilverTime

[stali79]

15 minutes ago, SilverTime said:

I tried the suggested fix with Firespitter, with no result. I have reinstalled this mod repeatedly, with no result. I have added the patches, again no result. I have spent about three hours over the course of two days just trying to figure out where to get information on this mod from this form, and to be frank I am completely burnt by the whole process. I don't know what is wrong.

I am not prepared to do surgery on this mod or my system to extract the necessary information and provide a step-by-step account of attempted fixes. The problem remains the same. The only lead I have at this point is problems with read-only settings. I found that the Steam appdata folders are set to read-only. For some reason the system is not allowing me to make these folders not read-only. This is what I have:

 

KSP: 1.3.0.1804 Windows 64bit

Problem: OTP components do not display fuel tank types or selection. No ability to adjust fuel tanks on all components 

Mods installed:

Firespitter 7 . 3 . 6 2 1 2 . 3 6 3 3 1

Module Manager 2.7.6.0

Reproduction steps:

Mutliple clean re-installs. Re-installs with patches included. 

Log:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5vegukb9b63thf/output_log.txt?dl=0

Given that 1.3.0 just dropped its probable that firespitter hasnt been updated yet.

[SilverTime]

16 minutes ago, stali79 said:

Given that 1.3.0 just dropped its probable that firespitter hasnt been updated yet.

I just tried Installing Firespitter 7.6.0 posted 10 hours ago here: https://github.com/snjo/Firespitter/releases

Still have the exact same issue. 

 

[K.Yeon]

39 minutes ago, SilverTime said:

I tried the suggested fix with Firespitter, with no result. I have reinstalled this mod repeatedly, with no result. I have added the patches, again no result. I have spent about three hours over the course of two days just trying to figure out where to get information on this mod from this form, and to be frank I am completely burnt by the whole process. I don't know what is wrong.

I am not prepared to do surgery on this mod or my system to extract the necessary information and provide a step-by-step account of attempted fixes. The problem remains the same. The only lead I have at this point is problems with read-only settings. I found that the Steam appdata folders are set to read-only. For some reason the system is not allowing me to make these folders not read-only. This is what I have:

 

KSP: 1.3.0.1804 Windows 64bit

Problem: OTP components do not display fuel tank types or selection. No ability to adjust fuel tanks on all components 

Mods installed:

Firespitter 7 . 3 . 6 2 1 2 . 3 6 3 3 1

Module Manager 2.7.6.0

Reproduction steps:

Mutliple clean re-installs. Re-installs with patches included. 

Log:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5vegukb9b63thf/output_log.txt?dl=0

Stali is probably right, also worth a try is to update your module manager to newest v2.8.0, link in op

[SilverTime]

26 minutes ago, K.Yeon said:

Stali is probably right, also worth a try is to update your module manager to newest v2.8.0, link in op

51 minutes ago, stali79 said:

Given that 1.3.0 just dropped its probable that firespitter hasnt been updated yet.

That's what did it. Updating both Firespitter and Module Manager to the newest releases got things going again. With KSP being in steam and auto-updating, I didn't even notice the new version until you pointed it out. Thanks for all the help.

[ss8913]

Firespitter has updated... but I think you need either intwerstellar fuel switch or modular fuel tanks, or both, to do what you want 

[Tokageroh]

OPT appears to not be playing nice with TweekScale  Game crashes on start up. Am using the up to date versions of tweekscale and opt (with patches)

Edit: Disreguard Post. Turns out it was FIrespitter Causing the problems. Updateed it and  Game is launching Properly Again.

KSP: 1.3.0.1804 Windows 64bit

Problem: OTP components do not display fuel tank types or selection. No ability to adjust fuel tanks on all components 

Crashes on startup, when used in combination with tweekscale

Mods installed:

Firespitter

OPT 1.9.9 + patches

Module Manager 2.8.0.0

TweekScale 2.3.6

Interstellar Fuel Switch

Community Resource Pack

Reproduction steps:

Mutliple clean re-installs. Re-installs with patches included. 

Log:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4fa0zu357jws0r/output_log.txt?dl=0

Edited May 30, 2017 by Tokageroh
Turns out It was Firespitter Causing the crashes whe combined with TweekScale. Update Resolved.

[cyberKerb]

Found a minor issue in that the part "j_sas" have a multiple ElectricCharge RESOURCE modules in the cfg file. (first is 300, other is 500)

[stali79]

Anyone feel up to checking my logs and seeing what is causing my ksp to crash?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2vm8xw2kdzil6h/error.log?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qjh7jcw69npn013/output_log.txt?dl=0

[Starwaster]

4 hours ago, stali79 said:

Anyone feel up to checking my logs and seeing what is causing my ksp to crash?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2vm8xw2kdzil6h/error.log?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qjh7jcw69npn013/output_log.txt?dl=0

It's a pretty generic access violation error. Sometimes hardware (memory) gets blamed but 99% of the time it's just software.

You've got 310 exceptions logged, some of them OnDestroy errors that you can ignore because people often don't code up a proper OnDestroy in their mods. Some of the exceptions are happening in places you don't usually see them like the stock radiator code throwing nullrefs trying to find sibling parts on your craft, and some of them when trying to create vessels or destroy parts.

Some things to try:

1. Reboot the PC (this before anything else so you don't waste time troubleshooting if you don't have to)
2. Verify your game files in Steam
3. If you installed or updated any mods recently then revert those changes
4. If the problem persists then create a new save game and see if you can play without errors. Some vessels in the current save might be corrupted

[stali79]

5 hours ago, Starwaster said:

It's a pretty generic access violation error. Sometimes hardware (memory) gets blamed but 99% of the time it's just software.

You've got 310 exceptions logged, some of them OnDestroy errors that you can ignore because people often don't code up a proper OnDestroy in their mods. Some of the exceptions are happening in places you don't usually see them like the stock radiator code throwing nullrefs trying to find sibling parts on your craft, and some of them when trying to create vessels or destroy parts.

Some things to try:

1. Reboot the PC (this before anything else so you don't waste time troubleshooting if you don't have to)
2. Verify your game files in Steam
3. If you installed or updated any mods recently then revert those changes
4. If the problem persists then create a new save game and see if you can play without errors. Some vessels in the current save might be corrupted

only started happening since 1.3 dropped.

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, stali79 said:

only started happening since 1.3 dropped.

Your log doesn't look like you're running 1.3

Which is all the more reason to verify your files. after making sure that you have the right version selected under the beta tabs. (opt out of all betas should get you the current latest version, i.e. 1.3. Other options would be 1.2.9 prerelease or other older versions. If you WANT 1.3 then make sure none of those are selected then verify your files)