Realism Overhaul Career Mode Discussion

[CaptainKipard]

Which one of the two trees here will have reasonable technological branching progression?

[Bedi]

About science transmission: All instruments should transmit at 100%, as Metaphor said, but the goo canister and Science Jr could represent some animal and plant samples which will use life support resources and will yield, for example, 10% of science on transmission. They would be also reusable(as you can readout biometrics as many times as you want).

[samroberts]

I like the idea of either full or no transmission data, that would make things much more fun and realistic. Another idea, I think if you want to add science mods, e.g. DMagic or ScanSat, they should be required so as not to make gameplay unbalanced. Although incorporating these might require rebalancing nodes and such. As for parts, I like the idea of being able to run the core game and then add mods if desired. Another neat idea would be that experiments would yield a lot less than they do now but there would be a science budget or a lot more part testing contracts. My reasoning behind this is that materials study or seismography of the Moon doesn't really help with rocket design so these wouldn't yield the same science but could maybe fulfill contracts that give science or small amounts.

[Felger]

I like the idea of either full or no transmission data, that would make things much more fun and realistic. Another idea, I think if you want to add science mods, e.g. DMagic or ScanSat, they should be required so as not to make gameplay unbalanced. Although incorporating these might require rebalancing nodes and such. As for parts, I like the idea of being able to run the core game and then add mods if desired. Another neat idea would be that experiments would yield a lot less than they do now but there would be a science budget or a lot more part testing contracts. My reasoning behind this is that materials study or seismography of the Moon doesn't really help with rocket design so these wouldn't yield the same science but could maybe fulfill contracts that give science or small amounts.

I'm going back and forth on this one, I expect that pretty much any measurement you make in space has some application to the design of spacecraft in one way or another (whether or not it's directly applicable is another matter). Experiments by relation to spacecraft component development:

Stock:

• Goo - A biology experiment of some kind, gives insight into human (kerbal) survivability in the space environment / life support necessities.
  
• Materials Bay - More obvious, see how various spacecraft materials respond to the space environment. Things like static electricity arcing, atomic oxygen erosion, outgassing, all play a role.
  
• Accelerometer - In-game used for measuring seismic activity. Personally, if I had a choice I'd use it for testing contracts. Measure the thrust produced by X engine.
  
• Barometer - Similarly obvious, aerodynamic performance is incredibly dependent on knowing the atmospheric condition.
  
• Gravimeter - Orbital dynamics. J2 perturbations, stuff like this makes a huge difference in mission planning, and avionics software for automated mission flying.
  
• Thermometer - Fairly obvious, thermal environment design is incredibly important. If you know the temperature regimes you're designing for, you can build more robust spacecraft for the task.
  

DMagic:

• Imager - Finding landing sites, and attempting to determine the landing condition. Helps with system design, knowing what kind of parts you need to develop.
  
• Magnetometer Boom - Spacecraft avionics interact with magnetic fields, magnetic fields generate areas of high radiation, drives the invention of things like this.
  
• RPWS - The plasma environment is also incredibly important for system design and development. High plasma environments contribute to arcing between spacecraft components, can have impacts on Ion drive performance, and change the behavior of your electrical systems.
  
• Telescope - Map out your destination, find targets (recent example: New Horizons using Hubble)
  
• Soil Moisture / Sample - Back around to life support for long-term stays on planets.
  
• Solar Particle Collector - Understanding the radiation environment from solar vs galactic radiation. Understanding the kinds of materials the solar wind will be pelting your spacecraft with.
  

I figure that's sufficient for the time being, but you get the picture. Every data point you gather on what space is like drives your development of future technologies, because you know what you're going to encounter, what hardships you will have to overcome. Even if your discoveries don't directly apply to 'making a rocket engine that pushes harder', the science points you in the direction of how much you have to figure out how to rad-harden your avionics, or whether the out-gassing and arcing will affect your OMS engines.

As an example, compare the progression of how we envisioned spacecraft throughout the development of our flight into space. They start out fanciful, like the aircraft of yesteryear, and quickly (as we discovered what space was actually like, via satellites, short hops into space, trips to the moon) they became more austere, more fit to the task. We learned what technologies we'd have to develop, used data gathered to predict whether the technology would work, and sent it up (a little up, and mostly sideways).

I think the current science model is actually a very good approximation of that progress. And the contracts help reinforce that (meaning, often you get the part test contract before you have unlocked it. This seems to point me to the idea that the Kerbals are developing the technology, and need data about the operating regime before finalizing their design, further solidifying this view of science and progression).

[PatPL]

I think, that SolidFuel is too expensive, it's cheaper to make liquid fuel boosters sometimes!

[Bedi]

I think, that SolidFuel is too expensive, it's cheaper to make liquid fuel boosters sometimes!

I might be wrong, but filling SRB's can be expensive with all these precise cuttings inside etc. Another thing- try to make liquid fuel boosters with SRB rated TWR ;P

Edited November 9, 2014 by Bedi

[PatPL]

I don't think so.

Edited November 9, 2014 by PatPL

[NathanKell]

According to the research I did, solids should cost about half a liquid stage for the same kNs impulse. Since engines do not even have costs yet, it doesn't make any sense to talk about what is *now* too expensive.

[Starman4308]

One thing which could be done for science experiments/tech progression is to have limitations on how much data can be stored on a probe, with potentially steep limits on transmission. I was struck by how data transmission was a major factor for Mariner 4; transmission was capped to 33 bits/second, and storage to 5.24 Mbits, and that could potentially be a gameplay mechanic: unless you burn the fuel to reach a stable orbit, your probe can only send home so many results.

[Scourge]

Regarding the issues with money and contracts, I'd strongly suggest a couple of mods that help a great deal, and also go a long way toward enhancing realism. I notice Dangit! was already mentioned, and of course Fine Print. My own suggestions are Kerbal Construction Time, which adds a real sense of history and scope to your space program by forcing you to actually spend time, and more money, on researching, developing, and building your vehicles. No more instabuilt rockets, and now your program will actually span years. Also includes a system for upgrading your facilities. Looks like it will apparently become superfluous when .26 is released, from what I've been reading, but it works well until then. The other is CIT Govt Funding, which helps deal with the contracts problems, and when combined with the functions of the new Administration Bldg, it can be used to play RO in career, ignoring contracts completely.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/92377-0-24-2-Kerbal-Construction-Time-Release-v1-0-0-(8-29-14)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/95865-CaelumIre-Technologies-%28CIT%29-General-Thread?p=1460619&viewfull=1#post1460619

[pjf]

Just a quick note that `ckan.exe update`, `ckan.exe install RP-0` now works, and installs RP-0 along with its dependencies. Although it's crazy-hella-alpha right now, and apparently NathanKell thinks I should be using various mods from git.

[NathanKell]

Yes, it rather depends on some not-yet released things I just added to RO, and also FAR from git since otherwise Procedural Fairings support is broken.

Also meant to be played with Ven's Stock Part Revamp (and the VSR / SXT interop patch I wrote for this express purpose).

[Sakai]

Can't wait for it to be completed and start playing. Been waiting for this for long time!

[tmikesecrist3]

Thank you for this guys, I really like the idea of having good career mod support, for ro. Though i have to confess it sort of works with Career mod already and I have not noticed to my problems. Though I do miss RPL I had a lot of fun with that...

Edited November 23, 2014 by tmikesecrist3

[JRA]

I am willing to do some testing and attempt to troubleshoot issues. When do you think this will be good enough to install and try? Next RO update?

[NathanKell]

Then come over to https://github.com/KSP-RO/RP-0/ and try one of our fresh releases!

[FreeThinker]

I think a Realism Overhaul Career only makes sence if the tech tree is integrated with the mission assignment. Like for example, Land on the opposite site of the planet using an ICMB rocket

[JRA]

Ok, been using this for ~2 days now. And, this is dope. I am taking notes on my thoughts now. Will give feedback in the next few days.

Edit: Are there any particular issues you are having trouble with or need feedback on.

Edited November 26, 2014 by JRA
Forgotten Question

[JRA]

Ok, so I took a break from playing a loaded up a fresh game. gave myself 50,000 science and set about unlocking all the nodes in order, while thinking about their position relative to everything else.

My notes are below. They were written in one sitting. At this time, no surprise, the tree seems wildly out of sorts. The notes are a few pages long (no blocks o text), and you can read them here.

I like the idea of having each column roughly equate to a historical block of space exploration. However, what I chiefly noticed is that you might need to go to the very end of the tree to finish unlocking Apollo era stuff. For reference it took ~29,000 science points to unlock the whole tree. If the player doesn't get tech to land kerbals on other bodies roughly mid tree I don't think they will be able to get enough science to advance.

So, with that in mind I am going to start a fresh game and play it through, taking notes on what I did and see how it flows. Can I keep up with the science income to keep advancing the tree at a reasonable rate? After all no one is going to spend 1,000 hours playing to unlock enough parts to build the Saturn V.

[Felger]

Ok, so I took a break from playing a loaded up a fresh game. gave myself 50,000 science and set about unlocking all the nodes in order, while thinking about their position relative to everything else.

My notes are below. They were written in one sitting. At this time, no surprise, the tree seems wildly out of sorts. The notes are a few pages long (no blocks o text), and you can read them here.

I like the idea of having each column roughly equate to a historical block of space exploration. However, what I chiefly noticed is that you might need to go to the very end of the tree to finish unlocking Apollo era stuff. For reference it took ~29,000 science points to unlock the whole tree. If the player doesn't get tech to land kerbals on other bodies roughly mid tree I don't think they will be able to get enough science to advance.

So, with that in mind I am going to start a fresh game and play it through, taking notes on what I did and see how it flows. Can I keep up with the science income to keep advancing the tree at a reasonable rate? After all no one is going to spend 1,000 hours playing to unlock enough parts to build the Saturn V.

To note, only a few mods are actually supported at this time, so depending on where you're getting the apollo parts from, those parts may not yet be placed correctly on the tree.

[NathanKell]

Not just "a few mods", but only a few *nodes* are supported right now. In fact, only play through 1962 or so (i.e. the first 5 nodes available, start, basic, and the three in the third column) is supported right now.

Check RP-0's requirements; right now the only part mods supported (and required) are SXT and Procedural Fairings. (It is also highly recommended to get Ven's Stock Part Revamp, and the SXT patch so SXT works. Otherwise the engines won't look right.)

[JRA]

One of the questions I had was in regards to the readme. I don't see anything documented as to what exactly is supported. Where can I check RP0 requirements? I have been going with the assumption that the plan is to support RO and its associated mods, at least in some fashion.

I had assumed that the first few nodes were considered closest to completed since they had been renamed. Then I saw that the Explorer was available right from the beginning and thought perhaps nothing was really ready yet but the contracts.

Still after finishing the first few nodes I decided to look at the whole tree and offer feedback on thoughts I had as I was unlocking it.

I will repeat an earlier question as well. Is there anything in particular you are looking for feedback on or help with? I saw in one of the .cfg that it said FIXME, but it didn't look to me like anything in particular needed to be fixed.

[JRA]

Is there a way to alter the starting "launch new vessel" contract so it does not give 5 science?

That is exactly enough to open "EarlyOrbitalRocketry." I think it would be better that the 5 science needed for that be tied to the sounding rocket contracts. Perhaps, the first 2 or 3 sounding rocket contracts could just give money, and then a later one could give 5 science? Or each sounding rocket contract could give one science and thus completing 5 would open "EarlyOrbitalRocketry"

What do you think? Perhaps not even possible, not sure how moddable the stock contracts are.

[JRA]

Or, another thought. Disable science on the "Launch New vessel" contract. And, don't give any science for the sounding rocket contracts either. Instead, have the player rely on getting probe reports for the various flights. it would only take some combination of probe reports from "LandedLaunchPad, FlyingLow, FlyingHigh, and SpaceLow" to do it. A player could easily get a SpaceLow report with the first node sounding rocket tech.

At least i was able to. It took a bit of practice, but not too hard. I am not new to KSP but I am certainly new to RO.

[Felger]

Or perhaps, exchange the launch new vessel contract with sequential altitude record contracts.