Mods and forking, what we shouldn't be doing.

[King Arthur]

I'm sure not everyone pays attention to all the threads in the add-on/mod subforums, so before I begin I'd like to lay out the context for this thread by linking to this thread, a now dead fork of the original Bargain Rocket Parts mod that is itself in a state of stagnation after the original developer moved on.

To reiterate what happened in a nutshell, last week a popular mod was forked (as permitted by license terms!) by another developer in order to keep the mod alive. This is nothing unusual, we see it every once in a while when a mod developer leaves or wants to move on to other things. What was unfortunate about this particular incident is that the developer that forked the original mod was harrassed by other community members and even other fellow mod developers for choosing to fork and maintain the mod. This ultimately resulted in moderator intervention in the thread, the forked mod being dropped, the forking developer leaving the aftermath in disgust, the original mod still being left in a state of stagnation, and leaving the community with a very negative, destructive atmosphere and precedent.

Thankfully what happened this time was an isolated incident, but as a player of KSP and someone who appreciates the work of mod developers and their work, this entire incident was just painful to watch and I see nothing that will prevent this from occuring again. As members of this community, I feel that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated. It is counterproductive and destructive to the entire modding scene and harbors an air of animosity.

To us players and mod developers, I ask: What can we do to police ourselves and work to prevent behavior like this? Given that the mod was forked legally as permitted by the terms of the license, there was absolutely no grounds for this incident to ever happen.

To the moderators and administrators, I ask: Will there be any protocols and/or rules placed to prevent such incidents occuring in the future? The moderator intervention was appreciated, but the incident still ended in a way that benefits noone and discourages prospective developers from forking mods.

Thank you for reading, I apologize if the topic at hand is more serious and heavy than usual but it just didn't feel right leaving this incident in the state of ruins it is and doing nothing about it.

Edited December 5, 2014 by King Arthur

[artwhaley]

Hmmm. It's a tough topic. I DO think we, as a community, could have been more diplomatic about how we handled it. I ALSO think the OP could have done things differently to protect themselves from that kind of response.

To start with, it's just not a good idea for someone with zero mod-making experience to decide they're taking over a mature mod... especially when their goals are somewhat different than the original mod. (The original mod is a parts pack... the new developer seemed most interested in making it a key piece in a tech-tree overhaul.) Nothing in our permissive licenses prevents this sort of thing... but when you're taking over for something pre-existing... you're going to get some backlash if you're not true to the original spirit of it. Now... there's nothing wrong with deciding you're going to shrug off that backlash and do something awesome anyway... and if it really does turn out great, people might come around. But it's a little rude to pick up someone else's work and risk giving it a bad reputation. Different choices that would have been better - 1, developing his own work until he was good enough to do the old mod justice, 2, doing maintenance updates only on the mod until he was good enough to really contribute to it, or 3, differentiating his work on the mod from the original with an unambiguous name change.

This issue was also run into recently with FAR... FAR doesn't work well with 64 bit, but someone started releasing a 64 bit version anyway. Ferram, from my understanding, didn't want it out there because he didn't want the inevitable support requests and complaints and the negative hits on his mod's reputation. But it was technically okay under the license. It's like the penny tray by the cash register. The sign doesn't SAY you can't take all the pennies. But you're kinda awful if you do. Just because a license lets you do something, doesn't mean you really should. You should think about how what you're doing affects the original creator.

Now, we as a community could have done better too. I think it's in all of our interests to help new modders grow and learn. We should have politely suggested name changes, or offered to co-develop on the new parts. We also probably should have waited to see what, if anything, he actually did with the mod. It may never have come to release... and if it did it might have been great, because he may have taken the time to learn as he went and not released it before it was ready. We should have articulated more clearly and politely our concerns and offered solutions.

To prevent it in the future... the most important thing I took from it is that I'm going be more restrictive on licensing my work. I've always used the MIT license in the past, because I really do believe that open is awesome. But I'm going to switch to a license that protects my 'brand' while hopefully still encouraging derivative work. I'm thinking a license that requires differentiation in a clear way... maybe disallowing my title to appear in the the title of new work without permission, or required derivative work producers to add their name to the title... so you'd have to name your mod "Art's Mod - Bob's awesome edition." Or maybe a closed license that then puts my work in the public domain if I don't update it in over a year. I'm giving it thought. And I think it will, unfortunately, lead others to licenses that DON'T encourage sharing and building on each other's work.

So... that's a long way of saying that everybody needs to be more polite, on both sides of the issue. If we're not polite to established mod makers... they're going to stop making mods... or stop allowing others to learn from and build on their work at least. And if we're not polite to new potential mod makers... well... we'll eventually run out of mod makers as the old ones wander off.

Art

Edited December 5, 2014 by artwhaley

[nli2work]

I read through the thread. It's a hard lesson for _Augustus_, but something that has to be learned sooner or later. Modding takes work, and a good deal of prior knowledge; creating a fork doesn't make one a modder or maintainer for a mod. It was clearly not within _Augustus' ability to maintain the mod and it was pointed out by several people nicely. RoverDude might have handled it a little better, but given the nice advice that came prior from couple highly respected modders, a firmer nudge wasn't completely unwarranted.

I've made same stupid mistakes too here modding for KSP, and elsewhere before. if _Augustus_ is really serious about learning to make mods, he can get over this. There are plenty helpful people here and plenty of information, you just gotta show you actually want to learn the stuff.

I think if you really wanted to kill the creativity and inflow of new modders, you would lay down explicit protocols governing every minute aspect of KSP modding. The sheer intricacy of it all would serve to deter all but the most determined modders.

Edited December 5, 2014 by nli2work

[xEvilReeperx]

The correct way for certain community members to handle this would be to let the fork die. The OP would have either sank or swam, but now we'll never find out because he was attacked for doing something the author's license permitted him to do. Really disgusting. Maybe I need to start including license readmes to clarify that the licenses I distribute are, in fact, my wishes and that utilizing rights I've granted via license is not a crime nor does it require you to have any experience

[Kerbart]

To be honest, when rereading that threat, it appeared to me that “the community†in general was trying to be very polite and tactful. It seems to me that the relying solely on the legal status and not on the (lacking) merits of taking on the project was what made the discussion spiral out of control. “Because I can†is rarely a good argument and bound to be perceived as rubbing the wrong way by some. Here's what the OP could have done different:

• Present the project as a fork with a different name (“Dirt Cheap Rockets: A fork of Bargain Rocket Parts†comes to mind) instead of using terms as “taken over†and “now managed by...â€Â
  
• Instead of listing the fork as a fait accompli in the original mod threat, start with asking if anyone wants to help in maintaining and keeping the mod alive. If you have no experience and the mod is popular, questions are going to be asked about your qualifications. A lot less questions will be asked if you asked for volunteers and everyone remained silent.
  
• Answering concerns of the community with effectively “hey I'm going to add a new part but I’m clueless on how to do it†is probably not the right way to put doubters at ease. Showing a video of the new part, and asking the community for their “blessing†to add it officially to the mod would have been a better way to go. And maintenance would be fixing problems in the first place, and only then (after having gained the confidence of the mod users) starting to add new parts. It's a lot easier to convince people that you can do something by showing that you can, than by saying that you can.

Do we need rules and protocols to prevent an accident like this? I don't think so. What we do need is, when “taking over†an orphaned project, is respect for its legacy, tact in communicating your intentions, and a realistic self-assessment about how others will perceive your skills and suitability to take on the project. Remember: perception is reality. It doesn't matter how qualified you are in maintaining the mod. What matters is how qualified the community thinks you are. That requires respect, and respect is usually earned, not given.

In my eyes, the hostility in that threat was largely self-inflictedâ€â€and preventable.

[Starman4308]

To reiterate what happened in a nutshell, last week a popular mod was forked (as permitted by license terms!) by another developer in order to keep the mod alive. This is nothing unusual, we see it every once in a while when a mod developer leaves or wants to move on to other things. What was unfortunate about this particular incident is that the developer that forked the original mod was harrassed by other community members and even other fellow mod developers for choosing to fork and maintain the mod. This ultimately resulted in moderator intervention in the thread, the forked mod being dropped, the forking developer leaving the aftermath in disgust, the original mod still being left in a state of stagnation, and leaving the community with a very negative, destructive atmosphere and precedent.

There may have been more diplomatic ways of handling the situation, but as I saw it, it nowhere approached harassment. It may have been a negative assessment of his skills and choices, but it was an honest negative assessment. It's like being upset that a novice pilot was told "I don't think you're ready to fly an F-22 yet". I feel you are grossly over-reacting to what happened there, and are trying to enforce standards which would amount to walking on eggshells.

It is completely unhealthy to have an environment where no criticism can be offered. If delivered constructively, it helps the person grow. What went down in that thread does not even remotely approach harassment: it was not intended to hurt the would-be modder in any way, but instead to steer him away from what was believed to be a foolish choice. It was not the best way; there could have been more offers of compromise and assistance, but I do not see how it came to any inappropriate level.

[xEvilReeperx]

realistic self-assessment about how others will perceive your skills and suitability to take on the project. Remember: perception is reality. It doesn't matter how qualified you are in maintaining the mod. What matters is how qualified the community thinks you are.

Is there a clause in the license that specifies that you need to be qualified or have certain skills to fork it? Or does it mention that any changes you make need to be blessed by the community? If not, why do any of those things matter? The fork would've quietly died and there would have been no drama whatsoever if some parties hadn't began the "nudging" to begin with.

Anyway, I already see this thread ending up like the last one so I'll stay out of it from now on

[Kerbart]

Is there a clause in the license that specifies that you need to be qualified or have certain skills to fork it? Or does it mention that any changes you make need to be blessed by the community? If not, why do any of those things matter? The fork would've quietly died and there would have been no drama whatsoever if some parties hadn't began the "nudging" to begin with.

While technically a fork, the OP did not present it as a fork. "Now managed by USI" and posting "I am now maintaining this mod" in the original mod threat create a suggestion that the OP had "taken over" the mod. Telling a highly respected modder that he should give his fork a different name only feeds that suggestion.

I am legally fully entitled to go to a public playground on a hot day and start taking pictures (with a big SLR) of all the little girls running around in summer dresses. Should I do that? No. It's a terrible idea on many levels. If we want this community to become a bureaucratic nightmare where everything moves around in molasses, then yes by all means we should stick to “if you legally can, let by no means common sense and courtesy stop you,†but personally I think we’re much better off if we use some restraint and are critical about our own abilities, instead of implicitly demanding that we get rules and protocols for everything.

[Superfluous J]

I don't know why this is such a problem. If you have the original modder's permission, you can take over the mod. If you don't, but you can fork it, do so with a new name. An actual new name and not the same mod with "extended" or "64 bit version" or "part 2" or anything like that.

LibreOffice isn't "OpenOffice But Free." They gave it a distinct, new name for a reason.

[RoverDude]

Well! Looks I had better reply to this

Let us begin by getting the exercise in irony out of the way. I believe it was the OP of this thread himself (King Arthur) who said that if we did not like the way this was forked, to show us how it's done. I did not realize taking him up on that offer would cause such an interesting storm as this. You may, in the future, consider being careful what you wish for.

Additionally. The OP of the 'fork' in question, _Augustus_ seemed quite happy to say 'Because I can' and cite the license terms but was quite displeased when someone else did the same thing. _Augustus_ has had, in his short history, a tendency to aggressively take over or try to take over mods, including one where he offered to take things over because the mod author was not a native English speaker. The body wasn't even warm on that one, it was still walking.

And for the last step on our walk down irony lane, this very thread. Rather than address it in the thread in question (which is still open), you choose to address the perceived 'beating up' of a community member by opening a thread that essentiallly... beats up a community member.

All of that being said - my one regret is that apparently _Augustus_ is a young person (no idea how young, but I am going to assume a minor). And it's a tough lesson to teach a kid. But it does not make threatening people (for suggestion the very same thing you just did) any more acceptable. And as noted, the only reason I am doing a fork (actually, a continuation project) is because I *strongly* disagree with the direction _Augustus_ was taking it. Everything from changing the directory to be his own name (which is flat out insulting) to his complete disregard for maintaining the quality of this mod ('it's cardboard not FASA').

Now. Let's run down the post.

I'm sure not everyone pays attention to all the threads in the add-on/mod subforums, so before I begin I'd like to lay out the context for this thread by linking to this thread, a now dead fork of the original Bargain Rocket Parts mod that is itself in a state of stagnation after the original developer moved on.

Define stagnation please. Because the mod as it stands loads without error in KSP 0.25. It works in Sandbox without issue. It works in career without issue (thank god RubberDucky used MM configs instead of Tech Manager) if you update Module Manager. Or is there something I am not aware of that was broken? Note that I am still carefully going through each piece one by one to confirm this, but given the lack of plugin code, I do not anticipate any config issues.

Note that it took me about five minutes of basic troubleshooting work to sort this out.

My question here will be, given that you assume this is in a state of stagnation, what precisely was broke other than needing a newer version of a very common dependency? What was there to fix? Given _Augustus_ by his admission has pretty much no modeling experience, what value was he offering other than putting his name on another author's work (to which I refer moving the mod to the 'Augustus' directory)? And rather than just fix the MM version issue, decided to move it into an entirely new (proprietary) tech tree?

To reiterate what happened in a nutshell, last week a popular mod was forked (as permitted by license terms!) by another developer in order to keep the mod alive. This is nothing unusual, we see it every once in a while when a mod developer leaves or wants to move on to other things. What was unfortunate about this particular incident is that the developer that forked the original mod was harrassed by other community members and even other fellow mod developers for choosing to fork and maintain the mod. This ultimately resulted in moderator intervention in the thread, the forked mod being dropped, the forking developer leaving the aftermath in disgust, the original mod still being left in a state of stagnation, and leaving the community with a very negative, destructive atmosphere and precedent.

See Irony above. First. He was not harassed. If anything, his resorting to threats because I suggested doing exactly what he did ('you wont like it when I'm angry') was the only harassment I saw in that thread. What I saw was a kid over his head about to butcher a respected part pack. You are painting a very different picture than what actually happened in that thread, and I invite the reader (as many already have done) to look for themselves.

I find it fractally ironic that you have an issue with someone forking a mod because they had issue with how someone forked a mod while defending their right to fork a mod, and challenging others to show the right way to fork a mod.

Him dropping it was his choice, but in my estimation the right one. Hell, at this point I doubt a fork is even necessary - what is necessary is simply a statement in the OP (which I will add after I finish my testing) that all people need to do is update MM. I'll likely start a new thread just so I can update the version number (especially with 0.90 coming), but there's no need to mess with something that still works. So I view it more as a curation than a fork to be honest, and mostly because the one 'fork' that was tried was very poorly done, and incredibly disrespectful to the original author's work, which is not cool.

Thankfully what happened this time was an isolated incident, but as a player of KSP and someone who appreciates the work of mod developers and their work, this entire incident was just painful to watch and I see nothing that will prevent this from occuring again. As members of this community, I feel that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated. It is counterproductive and destructive to the entire modding scene and harbors an air of animosity.

What behavior? Since you're pretty much calling me out in public, let's get down to specifics and go from there. No sense in beating around the bush. See, from my side, I saw an inexperienced person take over someone else's IP before the body was even warm and before there was even an actual and legitimate need, and without regard for things like, you know, save games and such, change the structure for the sole purpose of putting their name on it. Again... not cool. So let's be really clear on why you feel that _Augustus_ was not himself being counterproductive and destructive to the modding community and this mod in particular.

To us players and mod developers, I ask: What can we do to police ourselves and work to prevent behavior like this? Given that the mod was forked legally as permitted by the terms of the license, there was absolutely no grounds for this incident to ever happen.

See irony above. Given I plan on forking the mod legally as permitted by the terms of the license (and to actually work to preserve the IP of the original author as a curator), there was absolutely no grounds for this very thread here and talk of 'policing ourselves'. Explain why _Augustus_ is in the right and I am in the wrong, other than your own personal preference?

To the moderators and administrators, I ask: Will there be any protocols and/or rules placed to prevent such incidents occuring in the future? The moderator intervention was appreciated, but the incident still ended in a way that benefits noone and discourages prospective developers from forking mods.

See above. As for how it ended - it ended in the best possible way. A bad fork was killed. A fork that was unnecessary for the preservation of the mod, offered no value, and simply hijacked another user's IP. Awesome. In my opinion, that was the right outcome given the mod (wait for it...) Was not even broke. All _Augustus_ did was tack his name on and break saves. Harsh, but let's keep the facts clear and in the open here.

And let's also talk about forks for a bit. My stuff has been forked into oblivion and that rocks. Because it's done by people who are extending and enhancing it. But if someone decided to fork my stuff and just re-label it without any changes (other than changing the directory), I would not really see how that added value and I expect the community would agree.

Now, in the case of Bargain Rockets, where do you think _Augustus_ really fell? Did he offer (not promise to offer) any additional value to his fork other than slapping his name on it? Was it really good for the mod let alone the community?

To be blunt, I just don't see a single leg you have to stand on here other than I should have been a bit nicer to _Augustus_ because of his age. And I tried, and that was pretty much disregarded right about the time you (King Author) decided to call folks out and told us to show everyone how it's done.

Next time, be careful what you ask for.

Thank you for reading, I apologize if the topic at hand is more serious and heavy than usual but it just didn't feel right leaving this incident in the state of ruins it is and doing nothing about it.

'State of Ruins'?

The mod works. It never needed to be forked. Unless, since I assume given you feel it is in 'ruins' that you will tell me which parts do not work right now?

And maybe that's the core issue here... from where I sit, _Augustus_ did a tremendous disservice to this mod. From your perspective we have a 'state of ruins'. I'd be curious to understand why you feel it's that since I see it more as a case of crisis averted.

Edited December 5, 2014 by RoverDude

[xEvilReeperx]

I am legally fully entitled to go to a public playground on a hot day and start taking pictures (with a big SLR) of all the little girls running around in summer dresses. Should I do that? No. It's a terrible idea on many levels.

I have been goaded into one last post because of comparisons like this. Nothing he did was wrong. Your example compares it to a sinister act. The original author abandoned the mod. The OP was the first to declare that he'd be taking it over. If others want to make their own forks, that's fine but I don't think it's unreasonable to concede the name to the first mover especially when the entire reason that second fork was being created is to attempt to demoralize the OP into abandoning his project.

Is it reasonable to suggest that he might rename it? Certainly. But the majority of the criticism in that thread was that he's too experienced and would do a poor job of maintaining. Well too bad, he's got permission. Either he'll get the skills and it'll turn out great, he won't get the skills and it silently dies or somebody else with the motivation will do their own fork that eclipses his and his fork becomes irrelevant. Any of those would've been far preferable to members of the community actively discouraging a potential new modder.

Okay now I'm gone

[RoverDude]

The OP was the first to declare that he'd be taking it over. If others want to make their own forks, that's fine but I don't think it's unreasonable to concede the name to the first mover especially when the entire reason that second fork was being created is to attempt to demoralize the OP into abandoning his project.

Let's be clear. I decided to make a fork because I strongly disagree with the way in which _Augustus_ was handling aspects of his fork vs. the original mod as noted above, not for the express purpose of making him abandon it. And the reason I said I would NOT change the name to not include Bargain Rocket Parts is because, if anything, I was looking at a more pure curation of the project in it's original form and not a continuation or assimilation of the project. Note that I did not tell _Augustus_ to change the name of his fork. _Augustus_'s choice to abandon was strictly his.

It is incredibly ironic that people who defend his right to fork a project are so intent on vilifying me for... forking a project.

[xEvilReeperx]

Alright, one more.

Nobody's villifying you for forking a project. You're being villified because you are being a bully.

See, from my side, I saw an inexperienced person take over someone else's IP before the body was even warm and before there was even an actual and legitimate need, and without regard for things like, you know, save games and such, change the structure for the sole purpose of putting their name on it. Again... not cool.

Unless Rubber Duckey has transferred all of his rights to the mod over to you, what is good or right for the project is completely out of your hands. The OP of that thread has the right to fork it whenever. There doesn't need to be a need, nor is it up to you to determine when it's appropriate since you have no more rights than _Augustus_ does to the project.

Your posts in that thread are the following (summarized)

• The OP doesn't have the skills for this project
  
• Reinforce first point: "this mod is too nice for you to work on"
  
• The OP won't take the advice of others and abandon and I like a challenge, so I am going to make my own fork
  
• I don't care about your begging, I'm keeping the name
  
• I'm not being hostile. All I did was announce my own fork in your fork thread because I can do it better. That's not goading or hostile
  
• No, I won't differentiate my fork from your fork
  

So we're clear and all.

[King Arthur]

@RoverDude:

The post you wrote was quite the handful to read, so I apologize in advance if I happen to miss something.

Define stagnation please.

I wrote stagnation to mean a mod that is abandoned or is otherwise not being actively developed/supported. Yes, it's a parts pack mod and very unlikely to break from KSP version updates, but the fact remains that the original Bargain Rocket Parts is currently not being worked on by the original developer.

I guess this also answers your subsequent question here in this regard, I spoke of stagnation not to mean anything specific that needed fixing or additional work, just that the mod in question wasn't being actively worked on. Stagnated, stalled, abandoned, etc. is what I meant. I apologize if this was unclear.

See Irony above. First. He was not harassed.

As far as I saw of that thread, he was repeatedly ragged on for forking the mod with a perceived/actual lack of experience. What I want to state here is that if others wanted to rag on him about his lack of skill, once is enough. He was criticized and he elected to keep on going in spite of that, that discussion should have ended there. Continuing to bring that topic up even after _Augustus_ gave his statement is pointless.

Of course, _Augustus_ is also partially to blame for how that thread went since he did undoubtedly lash out at you in an unreasonable way. What is clear is that thread was handled by everyone in a very inappropriate manner that should be addressed for the future.

What behavior? Since you're pretty much calling me out in public, let's get down to specifics and go from there. No sense in beating around the bush. See, from my side, I saw an inexperienced person take over someone else's IP before the body was even warm and before there was even an actual and legitimate need, and without regard for things like, you know, save games and such, change the structure for the sole purpose of putting their name on it. Again... not cool. So let's be really clear on why you feel that _Augustus_ was not himself being counterproductive and destructive to the modding community and this mod in particular.

The terms of the license state, in a nutshell, that deriative works can be made with the requirement that the original creator(s) be credited and deriative works share the same license. What _Augustus_ did was fully within his rights and cannot be construed as destructive to the mod since the license specifically allows for it. The act of forking an otherwise unsupported mod is also not counterproductive or destructive to the modding community, and if his fork does in fact prove to be of inferior worksmanship then the forked mod will naturally die out without the need for any fussing about.

On the other hand, the act of pestering and harrassing _Augustus_ even though he did nothing wrong as far as creating his own fork of the mod is in fact counterproductive and destructive. The arguments made there was that he lacked experience and dissatisfaction in the direction of the forked mod, but stating that concern to him once is enough, any further like how things went and it becomes harrassment without any chance of producing anything constructive.

See irony above. Given I plan on forking the mod legally as permitted by the terms of the license (and to actually work to preserve the IP of the original author as a curator), there was absolutely no grounds for this very thread here and talk of 'policing ourselves'. Explain why _Augustus_ is in the right and I am in the wrong, other than your own personal preference?

I actually did wait to see if you'll be creating your own fork as you stated, and I wasn't going to write up this thread if your fork was already out since that would mean at least something positive would have remained from that whole fiasco. For one reason or another though, which I'm not going to discuss about since your time is your business, that fork hasn't been made yet, and thus the situation remains that the original mod remains without active development/support and we have nothing to show for killing off a fork that did have an active dev working on it.

See above. As for how it ended - it ended in the best possible way. A bad fork was killed. A fork that was unnecessary for the preservation of the mod, offered no value, and simply hijacked another user's IP. Awesome. In my opinion, that was the right outcome given the mod (wait for it...) Was not even broke. All _Augustus_ did was tack his name on and break saves. Harsh, but let's keep the facts clear and in the open here.

And let's also talk about forks for a bit. My stuff has been forked into oblivion and that rocks. Because it's done by people who are extending and enhancing it. But if someone decided to fork my stuff and just re-label it without any changes (other than changing the directory), I would not really see how that added value and I expect the community would agree.

Now, in the case of Bargain Rockets, where do you think _Augustus_ really fell? Did he offer (not promise to offer) any additional value to his fork other than slapping his name on it? Was it really good for the mod let alone the community?

Honestly, it's anybody's guess what _Augustus_ would have done with his fork of Bargain Rocket Parts because we killed it off before it could even get anywhere. He might have done great things to it or he might have done horrible things to it, but we will never know because we cracked the egg before the ugly duckling even hatched.

To be blunt, I just don't see a single leg you have to stand on here other than I should have been a bit nicer to _Augustus_ because of his age. And I tried, and that was pretty much disregarded right about the time you (King Author) decided to call folks out and told us to show everyone how it's done.

Next time, be careful what you ask for.

I stated that anybody who has a problem should create their own fork because I stand by the philosophy of the old saying that I'm sure you've heard of before: If you want something done right, do it yourself.

Action speaks louder than words, and perhaps more truly too. If _Augustus_'s response to concerns that his skill level might not be appropriate for the mod was not satisfying to you or others, then rather than repeatedly egging him on it that discussion should have ended there and disgruntled users and/or devs should just make their own fork to show how it's "properly" done if it bothers them so much. The license permits deriatives/forks with the proper groundwork after all.

As far as your advice to me that I be more careful in what I ask for, I will state that I do not regret saying what I said back then. If someone wants something done right, they should do it themselves rather than endlessly complain.

--------

In closing, please understand that I am not aiming this thread at you or anyone specific, RoverDude; I am not "out to get you" so to speak. For what it's worth, I appreciate the work you've done (that warp drive is awesome) and respect your skills and experience as a KSP mod developer. It's true that the lack of a fork from you, as of writing, was one of the factors in me writing this topic, but I am presuming that you are simply busy and/or have other pressing matters and I am not going to inquire or discuss that as your time is your business and not mine.

Rather than aiming at someone, I wanted to create a discussion about what happened so that we can hopefully prevent similar occurences in the future. A person should never be harrassed for doing something that he is legally permitted to do, witnessing what transpired in that thread was painful and benefitted noone. A mod developer should never have to worry about or be subjected to being attacked for a perceived lack of skill and/or disgruntlement with his work simply from just forking a mod as legally permitted.

Edited December 5, 2014 by King Arthur

[sarbian]

I'll just say one thing. This case is far from being the best example. _Augustus_ posted in a lot of threads asking for taking over mods. He did so in the SSE thread a week after I took it over with a post that said "I don't know how to code, compile or model but can I take over this" (he deleted all those post).

Wanting to help to keep a mod alive is a good thing, even if you start from scratch and need to learn a lot of things. But there is a difference between wanting to help and just changing the owner name to have your name on a mod.

And no, I don't think there is a need for a protocol. What is needed is common courtesy and sense, not a bunch of rules that will never apply to all cases.

[Greys]

Wow, this whole thing is just hilarious, at almost every level.

First of all, it is no longer possible for this conversation to be had objectively or constructively because certain elements of the original thread have been destructively modified, and many of _Agustus_'s posts were edited substantially after inital posting, and notably after the conclusion of hostilities in the original thread, throwing his entire side of the argument into doubt. Only those who were present for the events can know exactly what how it happened.

The truth in all ways that can be confirmed, no longer exists.

Most importantly the fork Agustus released is no longer available for inspection; there are no pictures, the things he and others said about what was being done are all vague.

RoverDude has earned my respect via personal interaction so if he says the fork was bad, I trust that to be true, but I can't even tell entirely from the original thread, nor this one; what about it was bad. Except for the folder thing, that was an incredibly bad decision , disrespectful, breaks stuff, doesn't serve a purpose, the worst of all worlds (it's like if you had hiccups so you stabbed yourself in the throat but you still had hiccups)

I think it's extremely... eh... closed sighted? to suggest that Rover's actions were in any way driven by the desire to force Augustus out, he made it very clear what his goals were, his reasoning was sound, and explicitly his fork will have different goals, non-competitive goals. As RoverDude does not intend to continue development, his 'popularity' will be no detriment to any other forks; the work is not his, he is just making it continue to function.

Again, because RoverDude does not intend to continue development; by your definition of stagnation, the entire basis of this dispute; RoverDude will not be forking this mod.

There was ever one fork of Bargan Rocket Parts, and when Rover releases his maintenance package, there will still be one fork; and it would then as now be Agustus's burden to convince people to use his over, not RoverDude's fork, but the original mod, unmodified, kept functional by RoverDude.

I honestly have no opinion on if he can, this is not a mod I care about in the slightest, and _Agustus_ is not a person I've interacted with. His behavior in his thread was, well, not good, but this thread, this is a joke. Nothing needs to be done. Nobody was bullying. This will not dissuade future forks. If anything the two people who see this thread past a year from now will take it as a good lesson that when you build on somebody else's work, you need to be gracious, and respectful. Not only of the work, but of the fans you are attempting to subsume.

This thread began as a clear attempt to shame somebody for perceived offenses by careful misrepresentation removed from the context in a higher traffic area. That's offensive to me. And now you try to argue that it's an attempt to shame everybody for being less than perfect. Well, I guess that's what baptisms are for.

How can we prevent this in the future: Don't take children seriously. Don't assume there's some kind of first come first serve law of the land when it comes to anything other than usernames. Don't try to start a fight, and certainly don't try to start a fight by casting someone as a villain just because somebody was more inexperienced than expected and accidentally made them cry. Don't assume everyone is out to be a problem. Don't assume that every time someone is a little mean, it has any meaning. Don't assume that what you've done is worthy of praise, that's not your decision. Don't refuse criticism. You don't have to heed criticism, but you do have to receive it, whether you want it or not. If the criticism is wrong, then it didn't matter to begin with. Don't feel that you must respond to everyone's complaints. Don't expect your anything to exist as a unique twinkling star in an ocean of nothing.

Really, Rover could have done one worse and declared that he was going to develop a wholly new mod in the style of the original.

Hilarious I tell you.

[RoverDude]

I wrote stagnation to mean a mod that is abandoned or is otherwise not being actively developed/supported. Yes, it's a parts pack mod and very unlikely to break from KSP version updates, but the fact remains that the original Bargain Rocket Parts is currently not being worked on by the original developer.

I guess this also answers your subsequent question here in this regard, I spoke of stagnation not to mean anything specific that needed fixing or additional work, just that the mod in question wasn't being actively worked on. Stagnated, stalled, abandoned, etc. is what I meant. I apologize if this was unclear.

Two points. First, as Sarbian noted as well, _Augustus_ has been aggressively trying to take over projects, and for your reading pleasure take a look at Star Systems and you can witness just how well Augustus has proven to be at mod curation (and thank god Medsouz came in and rescued that one from the total train wreck it becam after _Augustus_ 'took it over'). In another, he first offered to take over a mod because the OP might not understand licensing... and when that failed, offered to take it over because the OP was not a native english speaker (which is spectacularly insulting). This is not 'bullying', this is a PATTERN.

As far as I saw of that thread, he was repeatedly ragged on for forking the mod with a perceived/actual lack of experience. What I want to state here is that if others wanted to rag on him about his lack of skill, once is enough. He was criticized and he elected to keep on going in spite of that, that discussion should have ended there. Continuing to bring that topic up even after _Augustus_ gave his statement is pointless.

Wait... so you're saying it is pointless to bring something up after _Augustus_ gave up on his fork, yet you start an entire thread to publicly try to shame me by bringing it up.... And as Greys noted - that original convo was retconned into oblivion by _Augustus_ - how convenient. Like the bit where he actually threatened me for even considering a fork.

Of course, _Augustus_ is also partially to blame for how that thread went since he did undoubtedly lash out at you in an unreasonable way. What is clear is that thread was handled by everyone in a very inappropriate manner that should be addressed for the future.

Glad you see it that way. But you're still not telling us what rule to put in place here that is not already addressed by licensing. I still finding deliciously ironic that it's ok for one person to utilize a mod's license, but if someone else does, it is now bullying. And much like debates in the past it comes down to a combination of licensing and what the community will tolerate. From my seat, it looks like the community was not very tolerant of a kid with no experience, a history of aggressively taking over mods and getting in over his head, taking over yet another one. Gentle suggestions that he might want to rack up some experience first were met with flat out hostility. And he DID prove himself with the mod in question - his patch (again, now gone because of creative editing) was to break saves, move the mod to a folder named for him (which is a slap in the face and added no value), and rather than spend five minutes in troubleshooting, borked the tech tree by slapping in a new 'WIP' one.

As Greys noted, I could not have imagined a worse possible outcome for that mod other than maybe deleting all of the textures or something.

The terms of the license state, in a nutshell, that deriative works can be made with the requirement that the original creator(s) be credited and deriative works share the same license. What _Augustus_ did was fully within his rights and cannot be construed as destructive to the mod since the license specifically allows for it. The act of forking an otherwise unsupported mod is also not counterproductive or destructive to the modding community, and if his fork does in fact prove to be of inferior worksmanship then the forked mod will naturally die out without the need for any fussing about.

On the other hand, the act of pestering and harrassing _Augustus_ even though he did nothing wrong as far as creating his own fork of the mod is in fact counterproductive and destructive. The arguments made there was that he lacked experience and dissatisfaction in the direction of the forked mod, but stating that concern to him once is enough, any further like how things went and it becomes harrassment without any chance of producing anything constructive.

The act of forking a mod and immediately borking it up and naming it for yourself is destructive. And regarding pestering and harassment, you may want to look in the mirror and this thread, since it's essentially public harassment, made better because the thread you are citing as evidence of my evilness has been aggressively edited and redacted by one of the participants. How convenient.

And I did state my concern when I said I was forking. I made my intent incredibly clear.

I actually did wait to see if you'll be creating your own fork as you stated, and I wasn't going to write up this thread if your fork was already out since that would mean at least something positive would have remained from that whole fiasco. For one reason or another though, which I'm not going to discuss about since your time is your business, that fork hasn't been made yet, and thus the situation remains that the original mod remains without active development/support and we have nothing to show for killing off a fork that did have an active dev working on it.

Ahhh! Such an excellent attempt at a save.

Let's look back at that thread - which occured on a Saturday six days ago. I was very clear that I could not do it until later because... you know... I was playing in a concert. And was only about halfway through testing evey single part in that pack, to include checing it through a career progression while you were sharpening your knives. Now... maybe a 'hey, whats the status of an update' would have been a lot more constructive than the hate ball you provided us instead. Because unlike _Augustust_, I spent my time carefully considering how to make sure this stays workable without marring the work so that it can be turned over in an intact state when the original author returns.

It seems you and _Augustus_ have a similar issue in not waiting for the body to be warm and in jumping in without the courtesy of a PM or an inquisitive post. Right now, I'm even debating (based on my findings) on any need other than providing some alternate hosting - but we'll see as I still have some checking to do.

Honestly, it's anybody's guess what _Augustus_ would have done with his fork of Bargain Rocket Parts because we killed it off before it could even get anywhere. He might have done great things to it or he might have done horrible things to it, but we will never know because we cracked the egg before the ugly duckling even hatched.

Actually it's not a guess. The patch immediately before I announced my fork involved breaking the save by moving the contents to an 'Augustus' gamedata folder, and announcement that he would be moving it to a (still WIP) tech tree. So yeah... that ugly duckling had already hatched and was waddling down the road to join the other one called StarSystems.

I stated that anybody who has a problem should create their own fork because I stand by the philosophy of the old saying that I'm sure you've heard of before: If you want something done right, do it yourself.

Action speaks louder than words, and perhaps more truly too. If _Augustus_'s response to concerns that his skill level might not be appropriate for the mod was not satisfying to you or others, then rather than repeatedly egging him on it that discussion should have ended there and disgruntled users and/or devs should just make their own fork to show how it's "properly" done if it bothers them so much. The license permits deriatives/forks with the proper groundwork after all.

As far as your advice to me that I be more careful in what I ask for, I will state that I do not regret saying what I said back then. If someone wants something done right, they should do it themselves rather than endlessly complain.

Yet when this is done... we get this (waves hand at this thread). Your words do not reconcile with your actions and I call BS.

In closing, please understand that I am not aiming this thread at you or anyone specific, RoverDude; I am not "out to get you" so to speak. For what it's worth, I appreciate the work you've done (that warp drive is awesome) and respect your skills and experience as a KSP mod developer. It's true that the lack of a fork from you, as of writing, was one of the factors in me writing this topic, but I am presuming that you are simply busy and/or have other pressing matters and I am not going to inquire or discuss that as your time is your business and not mine.

Could have fooled me. This thread was, flat out, a personal attack. Nothing more. And see note above RE six days. I was very clear I would be forking after the weekend. If that was in fact your actual concern (not just a BS reason you dredged up in your latest post because you had no leg to stand on in your initial barrage of bullying), then don't you think... I dunno... ASKING... would have been a wee bit more productive?

Also note that unlike _Augustus_, I personally feel that the act of choosing to fork a mod is a lot more than sticking a post on it and saying 'MINE!'. i.e. time has to be spent seeing what precisely needs to be worked on.

Rather than aiming at someone, I wanted to create a discussion about what happened so that we can hopefully prevent similar occurences in the future. A person should never be harrassed for doing something that he is legally permitted to do, witnessing what transpired in that thread was painful and benefitted noone. A mod developer should never have to worry about or be subjected to being attacked for a perceived lack of skill and/or disgruntlement with his work simply from just forking a mod as legally permitted.

BS. You did not start a public discussion, you attempted to publicly shame me. And the lack of skill was not perceived - it was demonstrated. The lack of respect for the original IP was also demonstrated, and _Augustus_'s repeated attempts at taking over mods (including the trainwreck that was StarSystems) was demonstrated. And it is, again, incredibly ironic that for all of your talk of how people should not be harassed... that you create an entire thread with the perceived hope of rallying people to bully and harass me.

Edited December 5, 2014 by RoverDude

[RoverDude]

Alright, one more.

Nobody's villifying you for forking a project. You're being villified because you are being a bully.

Huh, and what would you call this thread then?

Alright, one more.

Unless Rubber Duckey has transferred all of his rights to the mod over to you, what is good or right for the project is completely out of your hands. The OP of that thread has the right to fork it whenever. There doesn't need to be a need, nor is it up to you to determine when it's appropriate since you have no more rights than _Augustus_ does to the project.

Can I reverse some names in that bit then because pots and kettles have nothing on this.

Alright, one more.

Your posts in that thread are the following (summarized)

• The OP doesn't have the skills for this project
  
• Reinforce first point: "this mod is too nice for you to work on"
  
• The OP won't take the advice of others and abandon and I like a challenge, so I am going to make my own fork
  
• I don't care about your begging, I'm keeping the name
  
• I'm not being hostile. All I did was announce my own fork in your fork thread because I can do it better. That's not goading or hostile
  
• No, I won't differentiate my fork from your fork
  

So we're clear and all.

How convenient that you only include one side of the conversation (although at this point given Augustus edited his posts it's pretty much impossible to get both sides).

[vexx32]

I think I'd better step in here, before it gets too much worse.

I think what so many of us seem to forget is that nobody starts out doing very well. Nobody starts out a magnificent coder. It's a learned skill, just like reading and writing are. In this particular incident, the conduct of everyone involved was, quite frankly, unacceptable. It is not uncommon -- in fact, it is very nearly the norm -- for newbies to start out by looking through and fiddling with someone else's existing code. As such, a beginner's project may well be a continuation or a fork of a more experienced coder's work.

These things have caused some strife here, as has this very discussion. However, in both this case and the others discussed here, the animosity is entirely avoidable. Even so, enacting new rules will most likely only increase the tension already brewing; further restrictions tend to be irksome for everyone involved, when what is really needed is simply a modicum of understanding between the experienced coders and those just starting. Certainly, it may be polite or good form to call your own fork something other than the original name, but those recommendations can be politely made. If they are ignored, at the very least the person you are addressing then knows it is bad manners and may not be received in the best light.

It is not for anyone to take it upon themselves to force them into changing their decision.

That all said, this discussion itself is already getting out of hand. If it is to be discussed, it needs to be in a civil manner, lest the same patterns be repeated. As such, for the time being, we must needs lay it to rest.

Edited December 5, 2014 by vexx32
Fixed a grammar slip-up.