Biology! Don't see too many of these. Eurpoa missions.

[kanelives]

So NASA says they want to send something to Eurpoa with the SLS and I believe other ideas proposed to burrow into the ice and into the liquid ocean. I bet you thought this was going to be a "can this moon support life thread", but here I'm interested in keeping life off Europa. Namely, a craft making it through the ice and into the presumed ocean would probably have to be one of the most sterile things ever created.

So what do you think guys, how do we sterilize such a craft?

[astropapi1]

Like we sterilize any spacecraft that's going beyond LEO. That's a big part of the cost of these missions, making sure everything is as sterile as possible.

Just look at Curiosity:

Everything is done in a clean room and I bet these dudes have to take very special measures to do their work.

[linuxgurugamer]

Unfortunately, it's been shown that there is no way to be totally sterile. Even our probes have microbes on the, although they are minimized.

[astropapi1]

Unfortunately, it's been shown that there is no way to be totally sterile. Even our probes have microbes on the, although they are minimized.

You could always stick the entire thing in a huge pot of boiling water...

[Bill Phil]

Send it in close to the sun. Very close.

Seriously, you need to avoid Europa and go to Callisto.

Then, use space-built spacecraft to explore it, takes forever, but it gets done.

[m4rt14n]

Whats in Calisto?

[numerobis]

You could always stick the entire thing in a huge pot of boiling water...

You'd need to get warm enough to dissociate proteins, which is going to be problematic to the probe itself. Anything worrisome is going to be surviving interplanetary transit, after all -- it's pretty tough stuff.

[Kerbart]

Just make it watch a Jets game. That'll suck the life right out of it.

[Dunbaratu]

I remember an episode of the TV show QI (which has gotten space facts wrong before, like claiming that Cruithne is a moon when it's not), in which the question was what was the first animal sent into space. The idea was to catch people out who thought it was the American chimps or the Soviet dogs, when the right answer was a small fly on one of the earlier flights...

.. and I immediately thought, "actually that's wrong too. It might be the right answer to the question what was the first animal intentionally launched into space, but unintentionally there must have been lots of single-celled things clinging to the early rockets before that."

Edited December 9, 2014 by Steven Mading

[kanelives]

You'd need to get warm enough to dissociate proteins, which is going to be problematic to the probe itself. Anything worrisome is going to be surviving interplanetary transit, after all -- it's pretty tough stuff.

Busting proteins with heat isn't always a big deal. I actually have a bio degree and know how they deal with spaceship sterilizations and I've had to work in sterile environments for cell culture and such... left that out of the op. I've denatured plenty of proteins with heat for certain kidns of assays. Plus bacterial endospores can be fine with boiling water, as can other kinds of 'living' things. And I'm sure you all know about tardigrades or Deinococcus radiodurans. I know you can't be 100% sure of sterile anything. I'm just thinking, if there's potentially a bunch of liquid water there, you're going to have to think pretty hard to make sure you don't accidentally dump something that can live in there. I mean, it might not actually be able to live in there, but that's not really something you can chance.

Maybe we just gamma radiate the probe for a long time and hope the instruments are cool with it.

[Tommygun]

I've worked in clean rooms and it always bothered me that they always seem to over look the obvious.

The face and eyebrows are not fully covered. Skin and eyebrow hairs are flaking off all day and how many times a day does someone unconsciously touch their face and contaminate their gloves.

If NASA was really concerned about microbes and viruses contaminating things they would run their clean rooms like level 4 bio labs.

I think they mainly want to keep debris out of the machines and the rest is mostly lip service. They probably think it is impossible to fully sterilize a probe and it probably is.

[NERVAfan]

I think the initial life detection mission to Europa should fly through (a very thin part of) a plume, collect water and look for microorganisms, DNA/RNA, proteins and other complex organic molecules in it. This is way easier than getting through the thick ice and has vastly less contamination concern... and if you find life or biomolecules you might actually be able to get the funding for an ice drilling/Europa submarine mission.

[LordFerret]

Whats in Calisto?

There's some who speculate there might be a salt-ocean beneath its surface, which might also harbor life. Europa though, agreed by most, has a more likely chance of supporting life. That's my belief as well.

If we went to Callisto and used it as a base of operations, surely we'd end up making an 'environmental' impact ... doing no less damage per say than we would if we went straight to Europa. I don't see how we could manage not to.

Everything I've read thus far about Europa suggests we might not need to 'drill through' thick ice. Some of the major cracks could prove to be only a thin layer of ice, or even direct access to liquid (for a short period before refreezing anyway). I remember reading about an idea of outfitting dolphins with appropriate breathing apparatus, and training and using them for exploration beneath the ice in its oceans... however, I don't believe such is practical nor to become reality. I can though see autonomous 'fish' probes going in and down for a swim.

[Creature]

I've worked in clean rooms and it always bothered me that they always seem to over look the obvious.

The face and eyebrows are not fully covered. Skin and eyebrow hairs are flaking off all day and how many times a day does someone unconsciously touch their face and contaminate their gloves.

If NASA was really concerned about microbes and viruses contaminating things they would run their clean rooms like level 4 bio labs.

I think they mainly want to keep debris out of the machines and the rest is mostly lip service. They probably think it is impossible to fully sterilize a probe and it probably is.

They don't (hopefully) overlook it, it's just that for the most part it doesn't really matter. Whenever something is exposed even in a clean room, it can be contaminated for many reasons which is why other quality control measures should be in place. The chances of contamination and the degree of it is just much smaller in a proper clean room but whatever it is you're doing there is just rated for the appropriate level of cleanliness. The more you want to lower the chances of contamination the more precautions you need to take but nothing is ever completely sterile for sure.

I'd imagine though that if you keep to similar levels of carefulness you do with surgery, the chances of contamination are so low that you can be reasonably sure we won't contaminate other planets. The workers just really do have to be mindful of what they touch, not hold their face over anything if at all possible and things like that. Then use chemical cleansing after a part is attached plus UV sterilization and the thing should really be quite clean. It would be interesting to see what the guidelines are for real.

[LordFerret]

I've worked in clean rooms and it always bothered me that they always seem to over look the obvious.

The face and eyebrows are not fully covered. Skin and eyebrow hairs are flaking off all day and how many times a day does someone unconsciously touch their face and contaminate their gloves.

If NASA was really concerned about microbes and viruses contaminating things they would run their clean rooms like level 4 bio labs.

I think they mainly want to keep debris out of the machines and the rest is mostly lip service. They probably think it is impossible to fully sterilize a probe and it probably is.

They don't (hopefully) overlook it, it's just that for the most part it doesn't really matter. Whenever something is exposed even in a clean room, it can be contaminated for many reasons which is why other quality control measures should be in place. The chances of contamination and the degree of it is just much smaller in a proper clean room but whatever it is you're doing there is just rated for the appropriate level of cleanliness. The more you want to lower the chances of contamination the more precautions you need to take but nothing is ever completely sterile for sure.

I'd imagine though that if you keep to similar levels of carefulness you do with surgery, the chances of contamination are so low that you can be reasonably sure we won't contaminate other planets. The workers just really do have to be mindful of what they touch, not hold their face over anything if at all possible and things like that. Then use chemical cleansing after a part is attached plus UV sterilization and the thing should really be quite clean. It would be interesting to see what the guidelines are for real.

Let's not forget the harsh radiation all spacecraft are exposed to out there in space. It's an issue to such a degree that special 'hardened' computers are used on such missions. I would think anything hitch-hiking a ride out there would be toast by the time of arrival.

[magnemoe]

Like we sterilize any spacecraft that's going beyond LEO. That's a big part of the cost of these missions, making sure everything is as sterile as possible.

Just look at Curiosity:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/100921/GAL-10Sep21-5799/media/PHO-10Sep21-253550.jpg

Everything is done in a clean room and I bet these dudes have to take very special measures to do their work.

Stuff going to Mars are sterilized, not most probes. One probe who was sent to Jupiter orbit was impacted on Io to avoid it hitting Europa as it was not sterilized.

[m4rt14n]

All these worlds

are yours except

europa

attempt no

landing there

[Dunbaratu]

Let's not forget the harsh radiation all spacecraft are exposed to out there in space. It's an issue to such a degree that special 'hardened' computers are used on such missions. I would think anything hitch-hiking a ride out there would be toast by the time of arrival.

What if it's not on an externally exposed surface, but is instead on an interior surface of something? The bit of shielding provided by the walls of the craft might protect it, especially if it's contained inside one of the areas intended for holding electronic equipment. Such areas might be better shielded than the rest of the craft.

[magnemoe]

I've worked in clean rooms and it always bothered me that they always seem to over look the obvious.

The face and eyebrows are not fully covered. Skin and eyebrow hairs are flaking off all day and how many times a day does someone unconsciously touch their face and contaminate their gloves.

If NASA was really concerned about microbes and viruses contaminating things they would run their clean rooms like level 4 bio labs.

I think they mainly want to keep debris out of the machines and the rest is mostly lip service. They probably think it is impossible to fully sterilize a probe and it probably is.

Clean rooms are mostly to avoid dust and fat, you could use glasses too but its not an huge source or the chip factories would use it.

Most of the reason they use clean rooms to assemble spacecrafts is to avoid getting anything on the optic, that includes star finders. You also don't want dust on other parts of craft at it might boil of and deposit on the optic. NASA complained about the trunk of the dragon as it used some lining who might have outgasing who could soil an camera who was to be put on the IIS.

[RainDreamer]

If we can make equipments that are radiation proof, we can just expose everything to cosmic radiation. That should kill off almost all kind of life form except for the ones that are extremely resistant, and those would probably die off at one point during extremely long exposure.

Or another scifi idea: can we make nanobots that targets all the microbes it find on the probe and kill them all. Yay.

Realistically though, I don't think you can fully sterile anything. You just keep the amount of contaminant as low as possible, then you hope the life form at the target location has good enough resistance to alien life form.

[theend3r]

If we can make equipments that are radiation proof, we can just expose everything to cosmic radiation. That should kill off almost all kind of life form except for the ones that are extremely resistant, and those would probably die off at one point during extremely long exposure.

Or another scifi idea: can we make nanobots that targets all the microbes it find on the probe and kill them all. Yay.

Realistically though, I don't think you can fully sterile anything. You just keep the amount of contaminant as low as possible, then you hope the life form at the target location has good enough resistance to alien life form.

Deinococcus radiodurans laughs at cosmic radiation. Even tardigrades weren't killed by the radiation but other sources during the experiments.

[Guest]

Lets look at another aspect of it.

Does it really matter? There's probably nothing interesting there organic/life-wise. Why not give it some? Liven the place up a bit.

[prophet_01]

NASA found microbes that went to the moon and back during apollo. Cosmic radiation, although not long duration, doesn't seem to impress those little fellas all that much. I think it's a good idea to keep europa clean for as long as possible. Once a probe lands there in order to investigate for life it's contaminated. However, not messing up the place if we don't have to, in order to look for organic materials, seems like a good idea. But it would also be an interesting result if microbes are able to survive our precautions and survive in such an enviroment. It might not tell us much about the required conditiones for the development of live, but would still be interesting

[Kryten]

NASA found microbes that went to the moon and back during apollo.

They found microbes on some instruments that weren't sealed on the return journey and weren't inspected in a proper clean room. It doesn't mean anything.

[YNM]

Don't all space agencies have some sort of

???

Granted it seems there have been problems, maybe one should start to put public feedback on it, if many of you is concerned.