Kron series (Kron 6 end of mission) - temporary halt of program

[Geschosskopf]

4 hours ago, _Augustus_ said:

Use VASIMR and nuclear!

I have a Kron 6 mission plan laid out. Here it is:

You do realize that Herr Oberth has essentially zero effect on anything but LFO engines, right?

Also, the only advantage of slingshotting off Kerbol at Ablate's altitude to get to Plock is reduced travel time, which is only useful if you just want to do a flyby like New Horizons.  The faster you're going when you depart on your transfer orbit, the more dV you need to capture at the target.  And out at Plock's distance, that will be INSANE.  I'm thinking 30Km/s and above is about in the ballpark.

If you want to go to Plock without ungodly dV requirements, go directly there from Kerbin on a proper transfer window so that you arrive there with as little relative velocity to Plock as possible.  Slingshotting off Kerbol is to get Kerbol-escape velocity, not to achieve orbit att other planets.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Matuchkin]

Any progress?

[NotAgain]

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 6:11 AM, Geschosskopf said:

If you want to go to Plock without ungodly dV requirements, go directly there from Kerbin on a proper transfer window so that you arrive there with as little relative velocity to Plock as possible.

If I am to launch a Plock mission, what kind of dV requirements would I be looking at for landing with no option for return? (It's just an un-kerballed rover.)

[Geschosskopf]

2 minutes ago, NotAgain said:

If I am to launch a Plock mission, what kind of dV requirements would I be looking at for landing with no option for return? (It's just an un-kerballed rover.)

Well, according to Kowgan's Swash's d-V Map.....

• Starting from LKO, the usual 950 to about reach Kerbin escape
• 1900-2700 for the transfer out depending on how far Plock is from Kerbol.
• Up to another 500 on the transfer to match planes
• 1110 to capture into a low Plock orbit
• 480 to land from low orbit

So, worst case, 5740, best case (which is HIGHLY unlikely due to requiring a very special alignment of the planets) 4440.  Give it 6000 and you're OK.

 

[NotAgain]

22 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Give it 6000 and you're OK.

Wow. Thanks. That's less than I expected.

Oh, and any ideas as to how to power a 120kg rover that far out? I've ruled out an RTG, as the stock ones are just too big, and the little Squiggsey Space Research Microsat RTG it waaay too small to last any longer than two years.

Edited February 18, 2016 by NotAgain
Adding stuff.

[Geschosskopf]

6 hours ago, NotAgain said:

Wow. Thanks. That's less than I expected.

Oh, and any ideas as to how to power a 120kg rover that far out? I've ruled out an RTG, as the stock ones are just too big, and the little Squiggsey Space Research Microsat RTG it waaay too small to last any longer than two years.

Fuel cells and fission reactors are probably your best bets.

[Findthepin1]

Will there be a Kron 6?

EDIT: nvm

Edited February 26, 2016 by Findthepin1

[VASMIR]

Anything new?

[lajoswinkler]

I'm on a hiatus until v1.1 comes out. There isn't much sense in doing a large scale mission in ther middle of large software changes, and I'd really like to use the opportunities new version offers.

[lajoswinkler]

Kron 6 (probably Plock-Karen mission) will probably use Kerbalism mod instead of TAC. Check it out.

[Geschosskopf]

17 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Kron 6 (probably Plock-Karen mission) will probably use Kerbalism mod instead of TAC. Check it out.

Kerbalism definitely sounds interesting.  And all things TAC are going their separate ways in the hands of whoever picked them up.  Good luck!

[Geschosskopf]

I just saw Kottabos' overview of Kerbalism...  Wow, that's some complexity there.  It would take me much practice using it closer to home before trying to take it all the way to Plock.  And that's just for learning the basic life support, quality of life, and climate control parts of it.  Then you've got the malfunctions, radiation, and space weather.  Certainly, a trip to Plock is going to take a century more or less, so the ship will certainly get hit by a storm at some point.

Good luck with it

[lajoswinkler]

3 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

I just saw Kottabos' overview of Kerbalism...  Wow, that's some complexity there.  It would take me much practice using it closer to home before trying to take it all the way to Plock.  And that's just for learning the basic life support, quality of life, and climate control parts of it.  Then you've got the malfunctions, radiation, and space weather.  Certainly, a trip to Plock is going to take a century more or less, so the ship will certainly get hit by a storm at some point.

Good luck with it

I'm going to use a hyperbolic trajectory so it will take few years to reach it. My only concern so far is the fact Plock is tiny and it will be difficult to stop at arrival. I'm still waiting for all the mods to update... Thanks.

[Interplanet Janet]

I'm thinking you should use a Jool slingshot, at the very least (other routes include Kerbin-Jool, Kerbin-Sarnus, Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Jool, Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Sarnus, or even Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Jool-Sarnus), with Kron 6. That way your total Delta-V can be reduced and you get a dress rehearsal for the Plock science. Time may be sacrificed, but less fuel = less money spent, and less money spent = more money total.

[septemberWaves]

Perhaps there's a time where all four gas giants and Plock-Karen align nicely though. It would be incredibly convenient if you could slingshot past each gas giant consecutively, gaining the added velocity each time, and then end up at Plock-Karen. Probably would still be a pain to slow down but it would definitely help reduce the delta-v on the transfer. I don't know if they all align like that at all though. I know Neidon is in a resonant orbit with Plock-Karen so that at least would probably make it not work.

[Geschosskopf]

Slingshots have 2 features.  They save you dV on the transfer burn to wherever you're going, and they consume time waiting for the proper alignments.  They do nothing else unless you're willing to spend even more time so that the last slingshot puts you into a good trajectory for an easy capture burn.  Such as the recent Mercury probe doing multiple fly-by to settle into orbit.  More commonly, like with the Voyager probes the object isn't to capture but to just get there, take a few pics, and go on, and the slingshots that got it there made it even less likely that it could stop at any planet, let alone get home again.

With Kerbalism involved, minimizing travel time is of the essence to avoid solar flares, so that rules out waiting for slingshots.  As I understand things, @lajoswinkler plans to get there quickly like New Horizons for that reason.  But that makes for about the worst possible situation for capturing at Plock. meaning insane dV required.  And then getting home again quickly will be more of the same.

[lajoswinkler]

17 hours ago, Interplanet Janet said:

I'm thinking you should use a Jool slingshot, at the very least (other routes include Kerbin-Jool, Kerbin-Sarnus, Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Jool, Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Sarnus, or even Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Jool-Sarnus), with Kron 6. That way your total Delta-V can be reduced and you get a dress rehearsal for the Plock science. Time may be sacrificed, but less fuel = less money spent, and less money spent = more money total.

Kron missions are sandbox. Doing this in career/science mode would be possible, but incredibly annoying.

 

10 hours ago, eloquentJane said:

Perhaps there's a time where all four gas giants and Plock-Karen align nicely though. It would be incredibly convenient if you could slingshot past each gas giant consecutively, gaining the added velocity each time, and then end up at Plock-Karen. Probably would still be a pain to slow down but it would definitely help reduce the delta-v on the transfer. I don't know if they all align like that at all though. I know Neidon is in a resonant orbit with Plock-Karen so that at least would probably make it not work.

As Geschosskopf said, it would not work for me as it takes a lot of time. Kerbals will sleep during the trip, but I have Kerbalism, so stuff can break down. The ship needs to arrive there as fast as possible.

 

7 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Slingshots have 2 features.  They save you dV on the transfer burn to wherever you're going, and they consume time waiting for the proper alignments.  They do nothing else unless you're willing to spend even more time so that the last slingshot puts you into a good trajectory for an easy capture burn.  Such as the recent Mercury probe doing multiple fly-by to settle into orbit.  More commonly, like with the Voyager probes the object isn't to capture but to just get there, take a few pics, and go on, and the slingshots that got it there made it even less likely that it could stop at any planet, let alone get home again.

With Kerbalism involved, minimizing travel time is of the essence to avoid solar flares, so that rules out waiting for slingshots.  As I understand things, @lajoswinkler plans to get there quickly like New Horizons for that reason.  But that makes for about the worst possible situation for capturing at Plock. meaning insane dV required.  And then getting home again quickly will be more of the same.

Exactly, I can't spend time cavorting around the inner planets. I'm mostly worried about getting home fast enough.

[Geschosskopf]

3 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Exactly, I can't spend time cavorting around the inner planets. I'm mostly worried about getting home fast enough.

Another Kerbalism feature I'm wondering about is climate control.  It's VERY cold out there in OPM territory, to the extent that even the quasi-magic but hugely heat-producing Nuclear Lightbulb engines hardly need radiators even at Sarnus except for the longest of burns.  So at Plock, it must be close to absolute zero (like it is on Tekto).  Are you going to need to lug around nuclear reactors just to heat the ships?

[lajoswinkler]

10 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

Another Kerbalism feature I'm wondering about is climate control.  It's VERY cold out there in OPM territory, to the extent that even the quasi-magic but hugely heat-producing Nuclear Lightbulb engines hardly need radiators even at Sarnus except for the longest of burns.  So at Plock, it must be close to absolute zero (like it is on Tekto).  Are you going to need to lug around nuclear reactors just to heat the ships?

I am planning on using a 1.25 m NF fission reactor for this purpose. I'm not sure, but its own fuel should be enough for the whole trip.

Kerbalism is nice, but so much is hidden from the user so you just can't tell what's happening.

[Geschosskopf]

43 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

I am planning on using a 1.25 m NF fission reactor for this purpose. I'm not sure, but its own fuel should be enough for the whole trip.

Kerbalism is nice, but so much is hidden from the user so you just can't tell what's happening.

I imagine you'd need such a reactor on not only the Mothership but any separate landers, too.

I would have to HyperEdit some test units to Plock to make sure that Kerbalism could even do climate control out there.  IIRC, the HVAC system assumed to be installed in pods has limits on the ambient conditions it can overcome, and I'm wondering if the environment of Plock exceeds the lower limit.  And if it could, how much EC/sec it required.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Cydonian Monk]

Hmm. So instead of radiators you need heaters. Presumably most occupied parts of the ship would already have heaters (as part of the HVAC system), admitedly adjusted to the slightly warmer space near Kerbin. So if Kerbalism isn't able to cope with the ~2.7 °K ambient temperature of deep deep space then perhaps we need a new [electric?] heater mod part? Though I'd hope your reactor plan would suffice. 

(I'm pretty sure my first instinct, kerosene heat (ie: LF/O and a tiny engine that's pointed at the cabin), wouldn't last for the entire trip. It's also a bit insane....)

That's all assuming the mod doesn't already cope with it properly. It's a tempting one to try out.

[KAL 9000]

Krakenspeed, Kron 6!

[Geschosskopf]

On 5/16/2016 at 10:47 AM, Cydonian Monk said:

Hmm. So instead of radiators you need heaters. Presumably most occupied parts of the ship would already have heaters (as part of the HVAC system), admitedly adjusted to the slightly warmer space near Kerbin. So if Kerbalism isn't able to cope with the ~2.7 °K ambient temperature of deep deep space then perhaps we need a new [electric?] heater mod part? Though I'd hope your reactor plan would suffice. 

(I'm pretty sure my first instinct, kerosene heat (ie: LF/O and a tiny engine that's pointed at the cabin), wouldn't last for the entire trip. It's also a bit insane....)

That's all assuming the mod doesn't already cope with it properly. It's a tempting one to try out.

Well, I checked the Kerbalism wiki and it appears that there are no limits to the temps the HVAC system can handle, provided they have enough power.  "This cost ElectricCharge, in proportion to the difference between the external and the survival temperature (295K, 21.85°C)" .

I get the impression, however, that you need that much EC/sec for each and every inhabited part on the ship.  Which would make sense.  But equally, that could be the cost for the ship as a whole.  I don't know.

Oh, and your kerosene heater sounds better than my idea.  I envisioned a wood-burning stove in the form of a device that cooked flammable gases out of the wood to use as rocket fuel and directing the waste heat into the cabin

Edited May 17, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[lajoswinkler]

After all this mod kerfuffle, the Kerbal nation is planning to send the sixth iteration of Kron to the Plock-Karen system. The Ministry gave a green light for basic preparations, however they wanted reasonable scans and images of the system before a great deal of funds is spend on a full blown manned mission.

 

That's how Kaos 3 came to be. Blutonium powered, ion engine probe designed to reach the system on a hyperbolic trajectory and take readings, transmitting them using a large dish commonly used on Kron ships.

 

Kaos 3 is now waiting on the launch pad. It will be launched using a two stage rocket with four "Thumper" solid rocket boosters.

[Geschosskopf]

2 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

After all this mod kerfuffle, the Kerbal nation is planning to send the sixth iteration of Kron to the Plock-Karen system. The Ministry gave a green light for basic preparations, however they wanted reasonable scans and images of the system before a great deal of funds is spend on a full blown manned mission.

Sounds like a very good idea.  Still using Kerbalism?