Leveling Up Kerbals -- The Training Program

[Geschosskopf]

It seemed to me that by the time the Kerbals are candidates for the space program, they have already had years of training in aviation, science or engineering. But I don't think they are assigned these roles at birth or anything. I like the fact that you need a scientist for some things, and a pilot for other things. I do, however, think that something as simple as fixing a tire or repacking a chute should be part of their entry-level experience. Or a pilot being able to point the craft prograde or retrograde. They should not need additional experience to do the most basic things.

Hehehe, and this is why I do not at all like the existing class system. Every single in-game task that Kerbals can perform is just menial labor. These tasks certainly don't require you to have graduated 1st in your class from MIT after an arduous childhood education. In fact, they can be taught to illiterate indigents via short training videos while they're en route to Mun:

See this big T-shaped button on the instrument panel? Push that to engage SAS. Congratulations, you're now a pilot.

See this sausage-shaped Goo cannister? When it's open, pull out the used cartridge and insert a fresh one. Then stick the used cartridge in this slot inside the lab, push the START button and wait for the timer to count down. When the timer dings, push the SEND button. Congratulations, you're now a scientist.

See this broken wheel? Stand next to it, wave your magic wand, and it will be fixed without even needing to wrestle with a spare tire and jack. Congratulations, you're now an engineer.

I see no reason why even the most brain-dead of Kerbals can't be taught to do all 3 of these things. Nor do I see any justification at all to pay them more than minimum wage. Thus, the ridiculously huge prices for recruiting TOTALLY UNSKILLED Kerbals is just broken, and the need to bring multiple Kerbals to do all 3 of these simple tasks just increases the size and cost of rockets for no justifiable reason.

[MerlinsMaster]

Hehehe, and this is why I do not at all like the existing class system. Every single in-game task that Kerbals can perform is just menial labor. These tasks certainly don't require you to have graduated 1st in your class from MIT after an arduous childhood education. In fact, they can be taught to illiterate indigents via short training videos while they're en route to Mun:

See this big T-shaped button on the instrument panel? Push that to engage SAS. Congratulations, you're now a pilot.

See this sausage-shaped Goo cannister? When it's open, pull out the used cartridge and insert a fresh one. Then stick the used cartridge in this slot inside the lab, push the START button and wait for the timer to count down. When the timer dings, push the SEND button. Congratulations, you're now a scientist.

See this broken wheel? Stand next to it, wave your magic wand, and it will be fixed without even needing to wrestle with a spare tire and jack. Congratulations, you're now an engineer.

I see no reason why even the most brain-dead of Kerbals can't be taught to do all 3 of these things. Nor do I see any justification at all to pay them more than minimum wage. Thus, the ridiculously huge prices for recruiting TOTALLY UNSKILLED Kerbals is just broken, and the need to bring multiple Kerbals to do all 3 of these simple tasks just increases the size and cost of rockets for no justifiable reason.

That sounds like a mod request.

Think of it. A mod that gives kerbals skills. Fix a wheel, conduct a goo experiment, have SAS certification, etc. New kerbals would already start out with the basic skills, as well as the basic skills specific to their occupation. New skills can be "researched" at the Astronaut Complex by each kerbal, and with each level of XP they gain, they are more effective at said skill. Fixing a broken wheel at 0 XP will probably result in failure more often than not. Conducting a science experiment will yield much less science at 0 XP than at 5 XP. The more you do each thing, the better you get at it, similar to how skills work in Skyrim.

Oh, and the candidates in the Astronaut Complex could have varying levels of skill, effecting their hire price. Less skilled kerbals can be hired for less, but you have to train them before they will be very useful. Highly skilled kerbals will cost significantly more, but are ready for those important missions you don't want to screw up.

I think it's a winner. If I could code worth a damn, I'd make the thing myself.

Edited July 26, 2015 by MerlinsMaster

[Superfluous J]

Note that you can give all 3 types the ability to turn on SAS and do all basic pilot tasks. You can also give all classes the ability to fix tires and other broken things like engineers. You can do this with a modulemanager config that adds the "engineer" or "pilot" modules to a Kerbal. I've actually done this in my own config, Jack Of Many Trades. I don't know if you can do similar things with the Scientist's ability to send >100% data, but I know it won't work for resetting experiments or for the Engineer's ISRU bonuses.

I THINK you can also - but I've not tested this - turn any Kerbal class into a Pilot, Engineer, or Scientist, losing all inherent bonuses they had (for Pilots, there are none. It's all in the module. But for Engineers they'll lose ISRU bonuses and scientists will lose at LEAST the ability to reset experiments, and may lose all of their abilities). You would do this in the above JOMT.cfg by changing the name of the profession from "Pilot" (for instance) to "Engineer" (again for instance). Once you do, all your pilots will - in the game - suddenly become Engineers.

[Geschosskopf]

That sounds like a mod request.

Would that it were so. Unfortunately, it's not possible. All the important bits you need to change are hardcoded and not visible to modders.

Note that you can give all 3 types the ability to turn on SAS and do all basic pilot tasks. You can also give all classes the ability to fix tires and other broken things like engineers. You can do this with a modulemanager config that adds the "engineer" or "pilot" modules to a Kerbal. I've actually done this in my own config, Jack Of Many Trades. I don't know if you can do similar things with the Scientist's ability to send >100% data, but I know it won't work for resetting experiments or for the Engineer's ISRU bonuses.

I THINK you can also - but I've not tested this - turn any Kerbal class into a Pilot, Engineer, or Scientist, losing all inherent bonuses they had (for Pilots, there are none. It's all in the module. But for Engineers they'll lose ISRU bonuses and scientists will lose at LEAST the ability to reset experiments, and may lose all of their abilities). You would do this in the above JOMT.cfg by changing the name of the profession from "Pilot" (for instance) to "Engineer" (again for instance). Once you do, all your pilots will - in the game - suddenly become Engineers.

I think it works like this (based on my own experiments and what I've heard from modders who are in a position to know):

1. Classes are defined in the GameData\Squad\Experience\Traits.cfg file. Classes have a "name", a "title" (which is the same as the name and probably not yet used for anything--might be for some future rank structure) and 1 or more "effects" which are the skills. The skills shown in this file for the 3 stock classes are the only skills currently available. It is possible to add/remove skills from existing classes and create new classes (with new class names) with various combinations of existing skills.

2. The class name of any individual Kerbal is determined by some funky, hard-coded, impossible-to-access routine that makes its decision based solely on the spelling of the Kerbal's name. Kerbal classes are NOT recorded in the save files, only their number of XP, so this routine runs at each game load. Therefore, you can change a Kerbal's class by editing his name, including adding spaces and other allowed characters, but there is no other way to change classes. This class-determining routine is so structured that the Big 4 always get their traditional classes but it will also include Kerbals of any new classes you make in the Traits.cfg file.

3. When you try to make a Kerbal do something in the game, the particular routine (stock or mod) in question has a choice of looking at either the Kerbal's class name or his level in a specific skill. Some of them look at class names, which is BAD BAD BAD because this means Kerbals of other classes (stock or custom) will NEVER be able to do that, even if they actually possess the necessary skill via the Traits.cfg file. Skills get looked at if they are "progressive", however, so that still opens up a lot of cross-training possibilities. For example:

* AutopilotSkill

This is progressive in that at level 0, you can turn on SAS, and then point the ship in various directions at higher levels. Therefore, a Kerbal of any class can have AutopilotSkill and the game will treat him as a pilot for SAS purposes. At present, this is the ONLY pilot skill so AFAIK no game routine references the class name of "pilot". This might change in the future, especially with that probe-flying ability for pilots I hear is in the pipeline.

* RepairSkill

This is also progressive in that you can fix different things at different levels. Thus, the game looks for RepairSkill, not the engineer class name.

* ScienceSkill

This is progressive because you can only reset Goo at 3rd level, so for this purpose the game looks at ScienceSkill, not the scientist class name. I think the science return buffs might work the same way but I've never really paid attention because they don't make much difference anyway.

4. Class names are referenced in a number of highly annoying situations, such as:

* ISRU

As already mentioned, only members of the actual engineer class can buff this. regardless of having RepairSkill.

* Mobile Processing Labs

Only members of the actdual scientist class can process data in this, regardless of having ScienceSkill.

* KAS/KIS

Only members of the actual engineer class can use the tools to bolt parts together. If you have a non-engineer with RepairSkill try this, you'll get a message saying he doesn't have enough RepairSkill, even though he's a 5-star in sandbox.

* MKS/OKS

Various functions specifically require an actual engineer or scientist regardless of skills.

--------------------------------------------------

AARRGGGHHH!!!!!

It would be SO much better to just to do away with all class names and let the players decided, when Kerbals level up, what skills to add or increase. You know, like pretty much all modern RPGs and non-union jobs .

Edited July 27, 2015 by Geschosskopf

[Superfluous J]

Thanks for the more info. I wasn't sure about some of it (though everything I said I was sure of, I was/am). The only thing I think you have incorrect is:

* ScienceSkill

This is progressive because you can only reset Goo at 3rd level, so for this purpose the game looks at ScienceSkill, not the scientist class name. I think the science return buffs might work the same way but I've never really paid attention because they don't make much difference anyway.

A scientist can reset Goo at level 0. I know for a fact that if Bob (a scientist in the stock game) tries to reset a goo container at level 0, he can. I know that if I change the "scientist" class to something else in the config (So in the game it appears that he's a "Scincey Guy" instead of a "Scientist") then he can NOT reset the goo container. What I don't know (because I never tried) is if you change "Engineer" in the config to "Scientist", if Bill will suddenly be able to reset the goo container.

Like you, I've never tested the percentages but as they actually scale with xp level, it seems reasonable to assume that they rely on it. And as so far we've only come across either-or things, I'm comfortable assuming that it ONLY scales with that skill, and not the class name in the config.

[Geschosskopf]

Thanks for the more info. I wasn't sure about some of it (though everything I said I was sure of, I was/am). The only thing I think you have incorrect is:

You know, I think you're correct. I got confused playing with mods. DMagic Orbital Science has solar particle collectors which require a 3-star scientist to reset.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

Could you please update the OP with this info from Bloody_looser? Very useful and buried in the middle.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/104239-Leveling-Up-Kerbals-The-Training-Program?p=1629949&viewfull=1#post1629949

[Geschosskopf]

Could you please update the OP with this info from Bloody_looser? Very useful and buried in the middle.

That hasn't changed since science became a thing and is on the wiki.

However, the OP does need 1 update that I can see, about the new mechanics of the Mobile Processing Lab. So I'll go tweak that. Also, I've changed my view on the value of scientists.

[Shaggygoblin]

So now you can build a biome-hopper with just 1 of each for a smaller, cheaper ship, and no longer need to waste time or fuel returning to a Mobile Processing Lab to reset these experiments.

I take the Lab with me. 2 Scientist in the Lab, 2 Sci and 2 Engineer in the Hitchhiker. If You could get Kerbal XP for each role specific action, all my crew would be 5-Star and never seen suborbital.

[Geschosskopf]

I take the Lab with me. 2 Scientist in the Lab, 2 Sci and 2 Engineer in the Hitchhiker. If You could get Kerbal XP for each role specific action, all my crew would be 5-Star and never seen suborbital.

If you want to role-play, then there is a need for pilots and scientists. But if your goal is to complete the tech tree as quickly as possible so you can move on to actually using all the cool parts at the end of it, the above is doing it the hard way.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

That hasn't changed since science became a thing and is on the wiki.

However, the OP does need 1 update that I can see, about the new mechanics of the Mobile Processing Lab. So I'll go tweak that. Also, I've changed my view on the value of scientists.

With due respect to the wiki, it's often out of date and erroneous; this thread is frankly much more useful

[MerlinsMaster]

Would that it were so. Unfortunately, it's not possible. All the important bits you need to change are hardcoded and not visible to modders.

Have you seen this? It sounds like it does at least some of the stuff I was describing.

[Geschosskopf]

Have you seen this? It sounds like it does at least some of the stuff I was describing.

Far as I can tell, that mod just changes the display, lets you move sliders for bravery and stupidity, and make the Kerbal Badas$ or not. This doesn't change the Kerbal's name, gender, or class.

[MerlinsMaster]

Far as I can tell, that mod just changes the display, lets you move sliders for bravery and stupidity, and make the Kerbal Badas$ or not. This doesn't change the Kerbal's name, gender, or class.

Right, but unless I misunderstood it, you can also change the kerbal's skill level.

[Shaggygoblin]

I take the Lab with me. 2 Scientist in the Lab, 2 Sci and 2 Engineer in the Hitchhiker. If You could get Kerbal XP for each role specific action, all my crew would be 5-Star and never seen suborbital.

If you want to role-play, then there is a need for pilots and scientists. But if your goal is to complete the tech tree as quickly as possible so you can move on to actually using all the cool parts at the end of it, the above is doing it the hard way.

Given the amount of time it takes to 'incubate' the Data into Science in the Lab, you are correct; however it's not 'the hard way' at all, more like 'the long way.' I still prefer driving over dying to my pathetic flying ability... So, while yes, it takes a LONG time to open the tree this way, with enough 'different' experiments, I can unlock the tree, in time, and not leave the ground... I leave the role-play to my daughter and her friends... (Still tweaks my nerves that she landed on Minmus first try and I collided into the moon on my attempt... yes, minmus was behind it, perfectly aligned...for her...)

Edit: upon rereading this, I feel I should clarify that the 'role-play' comment I made was in pure levity, i see how some may take it as an attack...it is not. Kerba-Cola's on me!!!

Edited August 3, 2015 by Shaggygoblin

[monstah]

Guys, the wiki says that, as of 1.0.2, scientists no longer boost recovery Science. The admin building lists Science boost as a skill when I mouseover my scientists, tho. Is the wiki wrong, or is that mouseover from some written description that is outdated?

[tbarcello]

I wouldn't trust mouse over too much. They have been proven wrong with the ships parts, why not here.

Also, regarding the topic, it was a great help. I have created a mission to travel to Mun, then orbit Minmus and escape Kerbin SOI all to level up 5 kerbals inside to level 3! Check out

. Edited August 12, 2015 by tbarcello
Autocorrection sucks + kerbal training video link

[MaxwellsDemon]

Reading over this thread, it appears to me that the primary source of pushback on the XP system is from veteran players who already know what they're doing. From the standpoint of a relative newcomer, it's actually something of a relief not to be hit with too many parts and abilities right off the bat; they're pretty bewildering, and when you work up from using a one-seater capsule to a three-seater, or from a rookie pilot to one who can control the craft better, it's a good thing. A veteran player experiences a loss of former capabilities, but a new player doesn't have those capabilities to lose to begin with... The one oddity is the way the tech tree is set up, with things like vehicle wheels and unkerballed technology coming after space flight, but I rationalize that by saying Kerbals are a bit odd to begin with and don't necessarily do things in 'human' order...

[Warzouz]

I think XP come very late in comparaison of the tech tree.

You can easily onlock the whole tech tree by visiting only Mun and Minmus (probably twice). It's easy, and resonably low budjet.

Once you get that, your kerbaks aren't even 3 level. You have to take a peek into Kerbol SOI. Going to level 5 is a very long trip if you want to get some siginificant part of your crew at level 4 or more.

Level 5 engineers are nice for Mining. But you have to send them to Jool's moons and back. THEN only you are level 5 and you can send them into efficient action.

I have recenlty many level 5 Kerbals, but I already have explored all bodies, and I don't need any level 5 kerbals to land on Eve or Tylo.

It's really sad that XP doesn't increase immediatly when landing somewhere. Returning to Kerbin makes nearly no sense and high level comes too late in the game.

But maybe the problem isn't XP, but the tech tree you can unlock too fast without going to Duna and Eve.

[MaxwellsDemon]

But maybe the problem isn't XP, but the tech tree you can unlock too fast without going to Duna and Eve.

I'm on the fence there. On the one hand, I get very goal-directed, and getting through the tech tree seems to take forever (as it did in my Science Sandbox campaign)... but on the other hand, once I was through it, I was like, "Wait, there isn't more to the tree?"

So you're probably right-- it's not so much the XP system, it's the fact that it's running at a different "velocity" than the tech tree.

[Warzouz]

We don't need all the tech tree to go to Duna, Ike, land some probes on Eve and go to Gilly. The tech tree could be fully open when going there. I don't understand why KSC gives so much science.

[Geschosskopf]

Reading over this thread, it appears to me that the primary source of pushback on the XP system is from veteran players who already know what they're doing....

I like to think of myself as experienced and my main problem with it is that nothing in the KXP or recruiting system makes any sense.

Specifically:

1. I have an "Astronaut Complex" which is merely a dormatory for unemployed Kerbals. It has zero ability to train Kerbals, which you'd think would be its main purpose. The only really useful thing it does is that I need to upgrade it to do EVAs in space, which really should be more of an R&D thing.

2. I have no control over the class, stupidity, or bravery of Kerbal applicants, and I can't clear useless ones from the pool without hiring and then firing them. Doing rescues is the same: No telling what I'll get until I get them home.

3. All Kerbal recruits come with zero experience, but the price for them increases exponentially, whether I hire them or do some rescues. The rescued Kerbals at least come with experience from having been in orbit but that's not enough to make a difference in the long run.

4. Kerbals only gain experience (and the associated skills) by doing new things at distant places, not by repeition which is the key to mastering skills in real life.

5. Despite all learning happening in distant places, none of it takes effect until they come back to KSC. This makes no sense at all given that KSC is incapable of actually training Kerbals.

6. I have no ability to cross-train Kerbals. Pilots are completely useless after like your 1st suborbital flight and scientists soon work themselves out of a job. But they're all experienced spacers so it's a shame just to kick them out of the program to make room for engineers. Better to allow cross-training in other classes or, better yet, totally scrap the whole class system and allow the player to pick skills for his Kerbals from the whole gamut, making custom Kerbals.

------------------------------------

So, here's what I do to deal with all these problems:

1. I modified the traits.cfg file so that all 3 Kerbal classes have all the skills. This allows them all to fix flats, repack chutes, etc. I still have to have actual Engineers to use KAS/KIS, I still need actual scientists to reset Goo and Materials, but this solves some of the more egregious problems of the class system.

2. I use the Field Experience mod, so that experience comes into effect immediately upon going somewhere. That way, I can send rookies to Duna and they'll be 3-stars upon arrival and planting the obligatory flag.

3. I use the Custom Barn Kit mod to set a low, fixed price for recruiting Kerbals. After all, they're random, unskilled rookies unworthy of a high salary.

I really hope Squad totally revises the whole class/KXP system in the future, but for now this is the best workaround I've been able to come up with.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

I like to think of myself as experienced and my main problem with it is that nothing in the KXP or recruiting system makes any sense.

--etc.--

Good call on all of these. It seems unfortunately the KXP stuff is on the backburner, since they never talk about it. Would love more, proper RPG-ish elements, like customizing kerbals and a better, revamped leveling system. Guess more Skyrim, less... what we have now

[Gasofidas]

I just went today through learning how kerbals are trained, it's for sure not intuitive at all, neither seems to follow any reasonable logic. Now I am stuck with a level 2 scientist and a level 2 engineer in the middle of lowlands in a rover with a flat tyre , a ton of science and about 70km of nothingness around, they probably have been chatting (I guess) for around a month now, so probably they should be able change roles at this point, but for level 2 only...

But, I made a spreadsheet calculator to just know how much experience/how can I level my kerbals and thought that maybe someone else can find use for it Kerbals Experience Kalculator, to be able to use it you need to have a google account and click on File->Make a copy...

Edited October 9, 2015 by Gasofidas