[1.0.2] B9 Aerospace | Procedural Parts 0.40 | Updated 09.06.15

[Crzyrndm]

Control "bounce" is fairly typical with FAR (stock maybe? Probably not but I haven't played with it in so long...). Basically you accelerate rapidly and gain enough rotational speed to significantly overshoot a maintainable angle of attack. Aerodynamic forces on your craft at high AoA fling you back the other way until your elevators gain enough control to overcome the righting moment again (repeat ad infinitum).

[Yemo]

You have too much "control", reduce the area of your control surfaces or reduce the control authority (eg for pitch). If your tail has all-moving-control surfaces, try setting the elevons to pitch 30, yaw 0, roll 35 or so...

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Sounds like you might be stalling the tail - that's a bit dependent on the shape of the tailplane. Try it with FAR's "light stalling things up" option. I knocked this up quickly with fully moving HS and ailerons, it loops fine if I don't pull up too fast & stall.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8641/15966814364_01b5e7e5d5_b.jpg

Incidentally at some point I reduced the size of the main wing & it unloaded some fuel, so I'm a bit confused by that one.

OK - but what happens is that it does bounce around, and eventually sort of "settles" at a very low angle of attack (relative to the velocity vector on the navball) - so that makes perfect sense. But what doesn't make sense is, when I am still holding down W/S, now, nothing happens. The whole plane is pointed just a few degrees up from the VV, and visually the elevators are cranked to the max, and the nose does not rise. AFTER it's done bouncing around... But maybe this is what tail stall is, and I just haven't understood that.

Control "bounce" is fairly typical with FAR (stock maybe? Probably not but I haven't played with it in so long...). Basically you accelerate rapidly and gain enough rotational speed to significantly overshoot a maintainable angle of attack. Aerodynamic forces on your craft at high AoA fling you back the other way until your elevators gain enough control to overcome the righting moment again (repeat ad infinitum).

That's good to know, and tells me it's at least partly (maybe mostly) the fact that I was using huge elevators, but I just don't get why with stock elevons, it also bounces, suggesting too much control area (I used 4 total elevons on similarly-sized non-moving elevators), but it "bounces around in a full circle", so to speak, whereas with the B9 all-moving pieces, it jerks hard, bounces back, then just stops. Roughly the same amount of initial over-steering with each set of surfaces, but the stock ones still provide force when I'm holding W/S once the craft has come back to a state where it's pointing more or less forward again instead of at a terrible AOA.... I even put the stock elevons at the same height on the tail in case that had something to do with it, but they still worked where the procedural ones ceased.

You have too much "control", reduce the area of your control surfaces or reduce the control authority (eg for pitch). If your tail has all-moving-control surfaces, try setting the elevons to pitch 30, yaw 0, roll 35 or so...

I know, and if you'll notice in my post, I tried with smaller control surfaces (maybe 1/6 the area). But I'll try with even smaller surfaces and see if that was the issue.

I guess what makes me suspicious, too, is the weird behavior with spoilers - another control surface deflecting vertically that ceases working if you hold down B (like holding down W/S) - unless no one else has issues with the spoilers either...

EDIT: Thanks to everyone who responded, with your help I am able to determine (with reasonable certainty) that all of this is just a question of me not designing things well. Thank you! Spoilers are still a mystery, though.

Edited February 20, 2015 by AccidentalDisassembly

[kcs123]

I have tried to explain pitching control/design to some degree trough pictures. It will not hurt if you look at those too. Link is in my signature.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

I have tried to explain pitching control/design to some degree trough pictures. It will not hurt if you look at those too. Link is in my signature.

Thank you, that's helpful as well - I always feel dumb when I jump to the conclusion that some part / mod isn't working correctly only to discover it's my lack of knowledge that's the problem. =( Didn't even know it was possible to (apparently) stall the tail completely, so that cranking the control surfaces wouldn't have any effect! But apparently this is quite possible.

[Van Disaster]

Yeah - you can stall control surfaces individually of the fixed flight surface they're attached to ( and in fact any aerodynamic device can stall ); stalling spoilers, which for some reason isn't working in current FAR, is a way to get them producing considerably more drag. The reason I suggested putting FAR's tint-stall option on ( it's under the Aero Viz button ) was because I suspected you were stalling the tail surfaces - it sounded like either that or just a lack of control authority, but with the size of your HS that is pretty unlikely.

Stalls are dependent on AoA; you can be in a steep dive banked to the right and still stall, it's not about being pointed up and slow.

[Goddess Bhavani]

Creative use for B9 Procedural Wings - make ground vehicles with them!

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[Thorbane]

I found a bug, setting the utilization on the wings to 0% results in a NaN. Changing this and reloading the craft fixes it.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Encountered a weird behavior when editing wings - something happened with KSPAPIExtensions (says ExceptionDetector) and then right clicking no longer worked on any parts in the editor. I don't exactly know what I was doing when that happened, except changing the shape/offset/etc of a wing I had placed on the end of another wing, so I'm not sure if I can provide perfect reproduction steps, sorry!

Log: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/output_logB9ProcWingsEdit.txt

[The Space Man]

Is anyone else getting this NRE?

Using 0.34

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at WingProcedural.WingProcedural.FuelOnUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at WingProcedural.WingProcedural.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

WP | ID: -1746448 | Update | Setup started in absense of attachment event

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

WP | ID: -1746512 | Update | Setup started in absense of attachment event

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

WP | ID: -1746618 | Update | Setup started in absense of attachment event

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

WP | ID: -1746724 | Update | Setup started in absense of attachment event

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

WP | ID: -1747026 | Update | Setup started in absense of attachment event

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at WingProcedural.WingProcedural.FuelOnUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at WingProcedural.WingProcedural.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

[Hodo]

Well on my second install this is the output log from that install.

second output.log

I removed my Pwings install on that install. Still getting this error when I attempt to move the wing with a control surface attached to it or change position of the control surface. It starts stringing this error when ever I attempt to place the wing or do anything to it.

NullReferenceException

at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.Component:GetComponent (System.Type)

at UnityEngine.Component.GetComponent[FARBasicDragModel] () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARGlobalControlEditorObject.FindPartsWithoutFARModel (System.Collections.Generic.List`1 editorShip) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARGlobalControlEditorObject.UpdateEditorShipModules () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARGlobalControlEditorObject.LateUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

(Filename: Line: -1)

NullReferenceException

at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.Component:GetComponent (System.Type)

at UnityEngine.Component.GetComponent[FARWingAerodynamicModel] () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.OnGUI () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at RenderingManager.OnGUI () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

(Filename: Line: -1)

[Niouk]

Hi, thanks for this great mod, i really like it.

I have a small "cosmetic" issue though: I am building a shuttle in SPH, and then I am importing it into the VAB. When my shuttle is in the VAB, I rotate it by 90 degrees so that the shuttle faces the east on the launch pad. After the rotation, the materials of my wings got mixed up: The right wing bottom material is now on the top. ( I will try to upload some pictures later)

I fear that it is related by the way the VAB/SPH handle symetry rather than a bug, but is there a solution to avoid this (aside using the same material for top and bottom!)

[Azimech]

Small request: a deletion of the size limits at the lower end. I wanted to build a smaller turboprop but these blades won't go any slimmer than .250. Thank you for your time.

[Einarr]

I would expect that since the leading/trailing edges of the wings do not have a collision mesh, FAR probably ignores those parts of the wings. Perhaps I ammistaken, but I would expect you'd nee main wing area to generate lift/thrust with those, though you could reduce the size of the leading/trailing edges.

[blowfish]

I would expect that since the leading/trailing edges of the wings do not have a collision mesh, FAR probably ignores those parts of the wings. Perhaps I ammistaken, but I would expect you'd nee main wing area to generate lift/thrust with those, though you could reduce the size of the leading/trailing edges.

Leading and trailing edges are taken into account even though they don't collide. FAR's parameters don't depend on the collision mesh for wings - they're set either in a CFG or by code (in this case).

[Pds314]

Oh my Gosh! Shut up and take my money!

[The Space Man]

I've been getting a lot of part attachment NRE's using the latest github version of FAR, so i thought about just going back to stock... until i saw this...

Col is moved way back in stock for some reason

Luckily reverting to FAR 14.6 has fixed the part attachment NRE's, it seems to be isolated to the github version.

[Niouk]

Hello, here are some screenshots of the issue I have when I import a shuttle created in the SPH to the VAB:

- Here is a screenshot of the shuttle in the SPH. The top material of the wings is Standard; the bottom material is HSRI

http://i.imgur.com/GKFnD2V.png

- here is what I have when I import the shuttle into the VAB: The top and bottom materials are mixed up.

http://i.imgur.com/fGyW6pw.png

- If i change the orientation of the shuttle so that the nose points up and it is orientated North (ie on the launch pad, after I attache my shuttle on a rocket it will be on the North side) everything is fine again:

http://i.imgur.com/C2dfKZF.png

- But if i rotate it by 90 degrees so that the shuttle is on the East, top and bottom materials are mixed up again:

http://i.imgur.com/BoeBCVC.png

The only solution I have so far to avoid this is to use the same materials for the top and the bottom of the wings.

I think this is related to the way the mirror symetry works in KSP (I think the plane of symmetry is fixed in the SPH/VAB building and not rotating with the vehicle)

Does anyone know a way to avoid this issue? I know this is only cosmetic, but it is quite annoying :-/

Thanks for your help!

[Pds314]

Hello, here are some screenshots of the issue I have when I import a shuttle created in the SPH to the VAB:

(snipped)

Thanks for your help!

I believe the mod is trying to find the "top" of the wing and paint that. Just like if you rotate the wing repeatedly while placing it, the top is always standard and the bottom HSRI.

[falken]

Curious issue with .34 is that with camera tools, I get transparent wings on medium to high zoom. Will screenshot it when I get back from work

[Hodo]

Well on my second install this is the output log from that install.

second output.log

I removed my Pwings install on that install. Still getting this error when I attempt to move the wing with a control surface attached to it or change position of the control surface. It starts stringing this error when ever I attempt to place the wing or do anything to it.

NullReferenceException

at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.Component:GetComponent (System.Type)

at UnityEngine.Component.GetComponent[FARBasicDragModel] () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARGlobalControlEditorObject.FindPartsWithoutFARModel (System.Collections.Generic.List`1 editorShip) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARGlobalControlEditorObject.UpdateEditorShipModules () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FARGlobalControlEditorObject.LateUpdate () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

(Filename: Line: -1)

NullReferenceException

at (wrapper managed-to-native) UnityEngine.Component:GetComponent (System.Type)

at UnityEngine.Component.GetComponent[FARWingAerodynamicModel] () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.Update () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at ferram4.FAREditorGUI.OnGUI () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at (wrapper delegate-invoke) Callback:invoke_void__this__ ()

at RenderingManager.OnGUI () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

(Filename: Line: -1)

So no update on this, still getting same bug same log. Oh well time to uninstall this mod till a fix can be found.

[01010101lzy]

The only problem I have now is the wing cannot be bigger than 16m in width...

I WANT TO CRASHCRAFT HUGE PLANES! QAQ

[kcs123]

You can always add several 16m width wings nex to each other to create larger surfaces if you need more.

This mod allows you to shape them to pixelpoint precision if you want to create look like it was only one wing.

And how large plane you want to create anyway ? I have made some heavy lifters to LKO and most critics received comes to using too much wings.

Check links in signature if you are interested.

[01010101lzy]

You can always add several 16m width wings nex to each other to create larger surfaces if you need more.

This mod allows you to shape them to pixelpoint precision if you want to create look like it was only one wing.

And how large plane you want to create anyway ? I have made some heavy lifters to LKO and most critics received comes to using too much wings.

Check links in signature if you are interested.

Oh thanks! I haven't thought about it!

I'm crafting huge huge planes... like making a 200t LKO SSTO or so...

Anyway, thanks for your help!

[silentdeth]

Getting an odd error. I can attach a all moving surfaces to a part, I can attach a single wing to a part, but if I try to attach two wings using symmetry things go wonkey, the cost is added but the wings are not attached. Error log below.

[LOG 12:17:02.344] [SCANsat] start: in editor
[LOG 12:17:02.344] [SCANsat] sensorType: 0 fov: 0 min_alt: 0 max_alt: 0 best_alt: 0 power: 0.05
[LOG 12:17:02.345] Tac.LifeSupportModule[FFF74192][251.47]: OnStart: Editor
[LOG 12:17:09.895] deltaWing added to ship - part count: 2
[LOG 12:17:09.896] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = deltaWing | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:09.897] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:09.897] deltaWing added to ship - part count: 3
[LOG 12:17:09.898] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = deltaWing | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:09.898] [VersionTaggedType] found KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker_1_7_2_0 for KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker
[LOG 12:17:09.899] [VersionTaggedType] found KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker_1_7_2_0 for KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker
[LOG 12:17:09.901] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:11.042] deleting part deltaWing
[LOG 12:17:12.411] deltaWing added to ship - part count: 2
[LOG 12:17:12.412] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = deltaWing | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:12.413] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:12.413] deltaWing added to ship - part count: 3
[LOG 12:17:12.414] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = deltaWing | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:12.415] [VersionTaggedType] found KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker_1_7_2_0 for KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker
[LOG 12:17:12.416] [VersionTaggedType] found KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker_1_7_2_0 for KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker
[LOG 12:17:12.416] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:13.193] deleting part deltaWing
[LOG 12:17:14.197] deleting part deltaWing
[LOG 12:17:18.248] B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeC added to ship - part count: 2
[LOG 12:17:18.248] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeC | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:18.261] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:18.262] B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeC added to ship - part count: 3
[LOG 12:17:18.262] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeC | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:18.263] [VersionTaggedType] found KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker_1_7_2_0 for KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker
[LOG 12:17:18.264] [VersionTaggedType] found KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker_1_7_2_0 for KSPAPIExtensions.PartMessage.KnownPartMarker
[LOG 12:17:18.277] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:19.429] deleting part B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeC
[LOG 12:17:20.492] deleting part B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeC
[LOG 12:17:23.149] B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeA added to ship - part count: 2
[LOG 12:17:23.150] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeA | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[LOG 12:17:23.162] stage count is: 0
[LOG 12:17:23.163] B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeA added to ship - part count: 3
[LOG 12:17:23.164] SAFix.onPartAttach(): Host = B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeA | Target = Mark2Cockpit | Symmetry Count = 1
[EXC 12:17:23.165] ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Argument is out of range.
Parameter name: index
System.Collections.Generic.List`1[PartModule].get_Item (Int32 index)
PartModuleList.get_Item (Int32 index)
ClawKSP.SAFix.UpdatePartAndChildren (.Part SourcePart, .Part UpdatePart, SymmetryMethod SymMethod)
ClawKSP.SAFix.onPartAttach (HostTargetAction`2 AttachedPart)
EventData`1[GameEvents+HostTargetAction`2[Part,Part]].Fire (HostTargetAction`2 data)
Part.setParent (.Part p)
EditorLogic.attachPart (.Part part, . attach)
EditorLogic.attachSymParts (.[] cAttaches)
EditorLogic.<SetupFSM>m__B4 ()
KerbalFSM.RunEvent (.KFSMEvent evt)
KerbalFSM.updateFSM (KFSMUpdateMode mode)
KerbalFSM.UpdateFSM ()
EditorLogic.Update ()
[LOG 12:17:23.543] deleting part B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeA
[LOG 12:17:24.794] deleting part B9.Aero.Wing.Procedural.TypeA