[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[SwGustav]

Great to start playing with SETI again though I don't understand mod separation? Balance mod had a folder structure that allowed to customize the install so I don't see the point. Tech tree is already turning into balance mod itself with those part rebalancing tweaks. Why not keep it merged? Not only it's confusing (see posts above), it's more work for the same thing.

[Yemo]

Thanks for the update. One quick question though, on the first page it says the balancemod part isn't compatible with 1.0.2 yet. So only the three other parts work for now? If I download techtree, greenhouse and contracts only, do I still get the balance feature? Also I'm a bit confused that do I need to download CTT in order to use SETI-CTT?

Yes, only the 3 other parts work with 1.0.2.

You will only get the balance features included in the mods you download, though a few of them were part of the original balance mod in some form.

SETI-CTT is an addon to CTT which is an addon to the stock KSP tech tree.

Updated KSPI-E to version 1.1.4 for Kerbal Space Program 1.0.2

Released on 2015-05-15

• Update Community TechTree to 2.1
  
• Fixed Negative Soot Accumulation
  
• Prevent switching type of Electric Generator
  
• Fixed Power scaling for Large Fusion Reactor in NF / SETI mode
  
• Made Antimatter Collector scale with surface Size
  
• Fixed Methalox not using Oxygen as second propellant
  
• Fixed Methalox fix in Interstellar FuelTank
  

Amazing update pace!

Great to start playing with SETI again though I don't understand mod separation? Balance mod had a folder structure that allowed to customize the install so I don't see the point. Tech tree is already turning into balance mod itself with those part rebalancing tweaks. Why not keep it merged? Not only it's confusing (see posts above), it's more work for the same thing.

I wanted to "lower the entry bar" to SETI. Not only for players but for me in terms of adding mod support as well.

SETIcontracts are only the contracts, which works pretty well as a spin-off.

SETIctt is more complex. Its goal is to change the progression.

This includes the science spending, eg tech tree rearrangement, which in turn influences probe and crew progression, thus life support as well.

It also includes the science gathering, changing the values for stock science experiments including something like the old mysteryGoo/materialsBay non-collectable thing (though they only weigh 80kg now...)

All the rebalances fall somewhere under those categories. Though I mainly rebalance stuff for stock/Ven's and leave other stuff alone, except for the tech tree placement.

It makes supporting mods so much simpler, because I mainly put the parts at different nodes, without detailed balance checking.

And honestly for some mods I changed stats in the BalanceMod, which did not really need changing (USI). While it was incredibly tiresome to have to adjust some other mod stats, because some part mod creators seemed to pay very little attention to the stats balance.

Particularly squad parts:

3 kerbal 4 ton Mk1-2 capsule offering not much more than the

4 kerbal 2.5 ton hitchhiker + probe core or the

1 kerbal 0.8 ton Mk1 pod,

or the 0.6! ton 1 kerbal Mk1 lander can...

Honestly, only slashing the Mk1-2 a bit is a drop in the ocean with regards to "balance".

I want the BalanceMod back, but it is just too much work until KSP is in a somewhat stable state/out of beta not only by name.

edit: Also with the new SETIctt, I ditched support for the stock tech tree, which did get much worse in terms of mod (not modding) friendlyness.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Yemo

[Errol]

Can you please release your tech tree config without any part re-balances?

[Yemo]

Can you please release your tech tree config without any part re-balances?

I might revisit the scope of the SETIctt when I m able to continue the SETI-BalanceMod and move all rebalances back to the latter, instead of the current minimal rebalance within SETIctt.

Until then it is just not economical for me to maintain a separate download for every level of rebalancing, as the current ones are affecting nearly exclusively massive stock imbalances.

But you could just delete the "MM-PartModding" folder from within the "SETIctt" folder for all the particular part changes.

The general probe core/remotetech changes are in the "SETIctt-Settings.cfg", which can be deleted as well.

And the experiment definitions/rewards including mystery goo and materials bay behaviour are in the "SETI-ScienceSettings.cfg", also deleteable.

This way everyone can "customize" their experience in steps, with a few simple clicks.

- - - Updated - - -

If you choose to delete the MM-PartModding folder, I recommend copy-pasting the contained "SETI-PartMod-SQUAD-Probes.cfg" file to somewhere else within the SETIctt or GamedData folder.

So that at least the probes follow the new progression.

And since the file is somewhere else, it does not get updated/changed/deleted/overwritten when a new version of SETIctt is installed.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Yemo

[Nataris]

I want the BalanceMod back, but it is just too much work until KSP is in a somewhat stable state/out of beta not only by name.

Does this mean we shouldn't expect the balance mod to be back for quite awhile?

[Yemo]

Does this mean we shouldn't expect the balance mod to be back for quite awhile?

The future of the BalanceMod is pretty uncertain.

The scope of the old one needs a somewhat stable and trustable foundation, which squad does not provide.

Which I guess is the reason why BTSM is as "standalone" as it is. It provides the stability necessary to build upon.

It is also the reason why there are so few "conversion" mods around in general.

Until something changes on that stability front, I will mainly concentrate on SETIctt.

To limit the extent of the stuff I would have to redo, when one of the unmotivated disimprovements hits again.

Another option is, to restart something like the former BalanceMod in a seriously restricted version.

Basically splitting off the current rebalances from the SETIctt as another separate download.

SETIctt - tech tree only

SETIcontracts - contracts only

SETIwhatever - balance stuff only

each independent, but intended to work together.

If squad decides to break tech tree modding again, only one is affected.

If squad decides to randomly change engine stats again, SETIctt and SETIcontracts will still work.

Since that is much more work for me than the old BalanceMod, the balancing extent would be nowhere near the old one.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Yemo

[sherkaner]

I've always been a stock career game player (although that's always been a frustrating experience), but I have to try this out.

You should just (I say without knowing much about the feasibility) distribute some sort of SETI master pack that installs all your stuff plus the set of mods that all work nicely with your career progression and creates a big, complete, balanced, deep game. If you did that, I'd just consider that the "real" KSP and be happy.

Until something changes on that stability front, I will mainly concentrate on SETIctt.

To limit the extent of the stuff I would have to redo, when one of the unmotivated disimprovements hits again.

Another option is, to restart something like the former BalanceMod in a seriously restricted version.

Basically splitting off the current rebalances from the SETIctt as another separate download.

SETIctt - tech tree only

SETIcontracts - contracts only

SETIwhatever - balance stuff only

each independent, but intended to work together.

I would be excited about however much you wanted to do to bring back something like BalanceMod. And I very much hope KSP gets stable to the point where you can confidently bring it back in full. I'm kind of sad that I got to the party here too late to try it before 1.0.

Edited May 15, 2015 by sherkaner

[hbkmog]

So I just started a new career with SETI. The first contract requires 18km altitude and I only have two initial SRB o.o. Am I supposed to strap 6 of them together to do it? It's over the 18t limit of launchpad. I dont have other extra parts mod installed.

Edited May 16, 2015 by hbkmog

[PeterPan]

Consider tweaking the thrust in VAB

[hbkmog]

Consider tweaking the thrust in VAB

Ah right, I didn't think of that. Thanks! I will try it out. It must be the drag.

[Yemo]

I've always been a stock career game player (although that's always been a frustrating experience), but I have to try this out.

You should just (I say without knowing much about the feasibility) distribute some sort of SETI master pack that installs all your stuff plus the set of mods that all work nicely with your career progression and creates a big, complete, balanced, deep game. If you did that, I'd just consider that the "real" KSP and be happy.

I would be excited about however much you wanted to do to bring back something like BalanceMod. And I very much hope KSP gets stable to the point where you can confidently bring it back in full. I'm kind of sad that I got to the party here too late to try it before 1.0.

About the recommended mods from the reddit question:

I have very recently linked an imgur screenshot next to the download link in the OP with some mod suggestions for the current state of SETIctt: http://i.imgur.com/87SeFtQ.png

You will have to decide between the 2 life support mods, I recommend USI life support if this is your first life support mod.

SETIctt is nowhere near the old SETI-BalanceMod in terms of mod integration and gameplay experience (especially regarding procedural parts).

I m not a fan of mod packs, as they deprive the individual mod authors of feedback for their hard work.

It would also impede on their control over their mods, eg compatibility warnings in their threads (eg besides the download links) would go unnoticed.

While I originally wanted to include the SETIctt and SETIcontracts in a continuation of the SETI-BalanceMod (as they were before), I m now leaning towards the separation mentioned in my last post.

Making SETI BalanceMod as independent as SETIctt and SETIcontracts instead of including the latter. It would establish a truly modular framework.

BalanceMod could be easily used without SETIctt, without having to delete folders manually.

Also I would not need to update SETI-BalanceMod when updating SETIctt or SETIcontracts. I could develop them separately.

The disadvantage is of course, that you would have to install 3 mods (4 with greenhouse) instead of one. Also maintaining 3 mods increases the maintenance effort for me, reducing the time spent on actual content. But honestly I prefer that over the current situation of having the whole mod knocked out because of unmotivated disimprovements.

And I think it is time to realize that the scope and depth of the old BalanceMod is just not feasible for the current state of KSP.

Imho it is time to give up and adjust to reality starting over with a much less ambitious reincarnation/reboot.

I would release one last ksp 0.90 version for the BalanceMod called 0.9.0 and then break it off and reboot it in a minimal incarnation, basically just containing the balancing stuff currently distributed with the SETIctt with a few additions (which tend to grow anyway).

I could call the first version of the minimal features reboot 1.0, leaving a wide gap to the old 0.9.0 BalanceMod.

Of course the 1.0 designation would not mean anything in terms of completeness, quite the contrary, it would be more akin to 0.1 (the original SETI-BalanceMod was first distributed as version 0.2). The other SETI mods would follow this version number jump.

Would be a nice touch. When you cant stop/change something bad, you have to adjust to it, a little sarcasm might help. Fighting windmills is futile. Doubleplusgood!

Edited May 16, 2015 by Yemo

[Lord Aurelius]

Sounds like a reasonable plan for the future given the circumstances.

I do hope at some point that we have a full SETI balance mod for 1.0 like we did for 0.90 (that is an epic setup), but I totally understand that with the amount of work involved you definitely want to wait until you're sure Squad has a reasonably stable foundation.

[kcs123]

Take your own pace with moding, doing only to the degree where moding itself gives some joy. Otherwise it become frustrating and forcing you to abandon moding alltogether.

It is realy nice from you to still maintain version for KSP0.90, but each day more mods becoming compatible with KSP1.0.x, more players switch to KSP1.0.x and maintaining mod version for KSP0.90 become more waste of time than gains each day.

Updating 3 different mods instead just one will not be much of problem for player. For moders point of view, like you stated everything have pros/cons, so choose one that fits well with your real life issues that you need to attend to and what is least frustrating at the end for you as moder.

As for latest SETIctt, I played it only shortly, but what I was able to try, early tree nodes are pretty much well balanced. I was able to create usefull smal plane from earliest parts and with some sci parts on boar protected with 1.25m inline Mk1 cargo bay I was able to gain enough science to unlock important parts for better rocket parts needed to reach orbit. Science gained in that way is still not too much because as you earn science from some exeriment you no longer have benefit from same experiment again.

Overall, great job with SETIctt, in terms of balance and tree nod configuration. My only problem is to choose what oder mod I need installed and what to get rid off, to have more-less stable game due to all knid of memory leaks encountered.

Keep the good work with this !

[Svm420]

Sounds like a reasonable plan for the future given the circumstances.

I do hope at some point that we have a full SETI balance mod for 1.0 like we did for 0.90 (that is an epic setup), but I totally understand that with the amount of work involved you definitely want to wait until you're sure Squad has a reasonably stable foundation.

Agreed. I have been in science mode till I can get a decent system resize without glitches for career, especially with the custombarnkit, I now have perfect limits for my game!. I just can't go back to such low orbital velocities. So much more exciting when even a LKO may melt your heat shield. Not to mention giant rockets are so much more fun than the dinky little thing made in stock.

[Yemo]

Sounds like a reasonable plan for the future given the circumstances.

I do hope at some point that we have a full SETI balance mod for 1.0 like we did for 0.90 (that is an epic setup), but I totally understand that with the amount of work involved you definitely want to wait until you're sure Squad has a reasonably stable foundation.

It is a long term goal.

Rebooting the BalanceMod in a much smaller incarnation will also give me more flexibility to concentrate on the most pressing issues, without the feeling of "going too far" in terms of part balancing (like currently with SETIctt).

Like the mass imbalances.

Not sure about the EC standardization.

Anyway, the new scheme/reordering will not be applied in the immediate future anyway, until SETIctt catches up a little with regards to mod support, it is just easier to continue with that one only for the moment.

Take your own pace with moding, doing only to the degree where moding itself gives some joy. Otherwise it become frustrating and forcing you to abandon moding alltogether.

It is realy nice from you to still maintain version for KSP0.90, but each day more mods becoming compatible with KSP1.0.x, more players switch to KSP1.0.x and maintaining mod version for KSP0.90 become more waste of time than gains each day.

Updating 3 different mods instead just one will not be much of problem for player. For moders point of view, like you stated everything have pros/cons, so choose one that fits well with your real life issues that you need to attend to and what is least frustrating at the end for you as moder.

As for latest SETIctt, I played it only shortly, but what I was able to try, early tree nodes are pretty much well balanced. I was able to create usefull smal plane from earliest parts and with some sci parts on boar protected with 1.25m inline Mk1 cargo bay I was able to gain enough science to unlock important parts for better rocket parts needed to reach orbit. Science gained in that way is still not too much because as you earn science from some exeriment you no longer have benefit from same experiment again.

Overall, great job with SETIctt, in terms of balance and tree nod configuration. My only problem is to choose what oder mod I need installed and what to get rid off, to have more-less stable game due to all knid of memory leaks encountered.

Keep the good work with this !

The last update for the old balancemod is only planned to incorporate the next few contracts from SETIcontracts (which is copy and paste) and probably the materialsBay/mysteryGoo mass and scale changes, which imho work very well. It is more like a "roundoff" package for my personal max mods 0.90 install.

Thank you, personally I mess around in 1.0 with a simpler mod package (USI life support instead of TAC), will try to support AntennaRange in the next versions as an alternative to RemoteTech. Until a maxMods install is rebalanced sufficiently again.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Yemo

[Olsson]

I have an issue with the InitialContracts. After I manage to get to orbit there are no more follow up contracts!

[sherkaner]

About the recommended mods from the reddit question:

I have very recently linked an imgur screenshot next to the download link in the OP with some mod suggestions for the current state of SETIctt: http://i.imgur.com/87SeFtQ.png

This is fantastic. I fully understand what you mean about doing a disservice to the mod creators by packaging them up, so having a very nice guide for "here's what you need for a complete SETI experience" does the trick nicely. I'd suggest maintaining a clear guide like this, including the tree image as well as a little description text (such as about the life support choice) for those coming into SETI -- and in some cases modding in general -- for the first time.

While I originally wanted to include the SETIctt and SETIcontracts in a continuation of the SETI-BalanceMod (as they were before), I m now leaning towards the separation mentioned in my last post.

Making SETI BalanceMod as independent as SETIctt and SETIcontracts instead of including the latter. It would establish a truly modular framework.

BalanceMod could be easily used without SETIctt, without having to delete folders manually.

Also I would not need to update SETI-BalanceMod when updating SETIctt or SETIcontracts. I could develop them separately.

I think that's a very reasonable compromise. The additional burden of installing a couple more mods is trivial when we're already talking about installing a dozen or so to fill out the complete experience you're encompassing.

And I think it is time to realize that the scope and depth of the old BalanceMod is just not feasible for the current state of KSP.

Imho it is time to give up and adjust to reality starting over with a much less ambitious reincarnation/reboot.

I can't say I blame you. Having gotten into this late, what exactly would is lost from how Balance was implemented? I know you mentioned something about procedural parts, but I guess I'm not clear what related to those was included before what's broken without that. But in general I'd much rather you keep the motivation to keep developing SETIctt/contracts (plus however far you feel like going on an add-on minimal balance mod) than stop altogether because you can't realize your full vision just yet.

When you cant stop/change something bad, you have to adjust to it, a little sarcasm might help. Fighting windmills is futile. Doubleplusgood!

Good attitude! And thanks again for your work and vision in building this. By the way, I was the one who built that little "Blue Sky" stock parts tech tree based on that long tech tree thread somebody linked earlier. And while you went a slightly different direction with your tree (although I do think you addressed the major problems with the current tree -- and yours is admittedly a lot less messy), the comprehensive approach you've taken is what I really wanted but didn't have the time and expertise to pursue. I can't wait to dig in (although I'm kind of hoping for a quick aero hotfix this week before I get serious).

[Yemo]

I have an issue with the InitialContracts. After I manage to get to orbit there are no more follow up contracts!

Hm, that is strange.

Could you provide a screenshot of your GameData folder and your ContractPacks folder?

[Olsson]

Hm, that is strange.

Could you provide a screenshot of your GameData folder and your ContractPacks folder?

http://imgur.com/9NIqTsF,cMYVcoF#1

Here you go!

[sherkaner]

Thank you, personally I mess around in 1.0 with a simpler mod package (USI life support instead of TAC), will try to support AntennaRange in the next versions as an alternative to RemoteTech. Until a maxMods install is rebalanced sufficiently again.

Personally I'd love that, as somebody who would really like to play a game where antennas have some design implications, but still enjoy a kerbal-stock-like experience that isn't over-the-top on realistic depth.

[Yemo]

I can't say I blame you. Having gotten into this late, what exactly would is lost from how Balance was implemented? I know you mentioned something about procedural parts, but I guess I'm not clear what related to those was included before what's broken without that. But in general I'd much rather you keep the motivation to keep developing SETIctt/contracts (plus however far you feel like going on an add-on minimal balance mod) than stop altogether because you can't realize your full vision just yet.

Good attitude! And thanks again for your work and vision in building this. By the way, I was the one who built that little "Blue Sky" stock parts tech tree based on that long tech tree thread somebody linked earlier. And while you went a slightly different direction with your tree (although I do think you addressed the major problems with the current tree -- and yours is admittedly a lot less messy), the comprehensive approach you've taken is what I really wanted but didn't have the time and expertise to pursue. I can't wait to dig in (although I'm kind of hoping for a quick aero hotfix this week before I get serious).

Well, with the more modular concept of the new SETI, you could revive the BlueSky tree and perhaps use something like the SETIcontracts to cover that part of the progression.

I recommend using the CTT as a base for a techtree mod. Like SETIctt, you mainly have to rearrange nodes and the stock parts, while many part mods will eventually find their appropriate nodes based on their communityTechTree configs.

http://imgur.com/9NIqTsF,cMYVcoF#1

Here you go!

That was fast! I would also need a screenshot of the contents of your "ContractPacks" folder, since incompatibility with other contract packs might be the cause.

Personally I'd love that, as somebody who would really like to play a game where antennas have some design implications, but still enjoy a kerbal-stock-like experience that isn't over-the-top on realistic depth.

Yep, antenna range would fit nicely into a less complex setup with USI life support. Although I generally do not like this, I might have to make the foldable stock antenna position in the tech tree dependent on RemoteTech installation.

[Olsson]

That was fast! I would also need a screenshot of the contents of your "ContractPacks" folder, since incompatibility with other contract packs might be the cause.

It's the first pic in the album I linked.

But here's the direct link: http://i.imgur.com/9NIqTsF.png

[Yemo]

It's the first pic in the album I linked.

But here's the direct link: http://i.imgur.com/9NIqTsF.png

Whoops, didnt see that is an album.

Well, InitialContracts are just a smaller repackaging of the first 3 SETIcontracts, for those who prefer stock progression for exploration, or for easy implementation with other tech trees.

They should self-deactivate if SETIcontracts are present. So I guess you have no more progression contracts after one of the orbit ones from SETIcontracts?

Based on the SETIcontracts progression chart, when did you stop getting new ones? After unmannedOrbit, unmannedOrbit+Recovery or mannedOrbit?.

edit: I can not see any problems in your folders.

It could simply be that your mission control contract slots for 2star ones are all occupied. You could decline other offered contracts and the other progression contracts should show up eventually.

It is an unfortunate "feature" of KSP for which I did not find a workaround so far.

- - - Updated - - -

Though I have to investigate those SpaceTux contracts, there might be a compatibility problem.

[Olsson]

Whoops, didnt see that is an album.

Well, InitialContracts are just a smaller repackaging of the first 3 SETIcontracts, for those who prefer stock progression for exploration, or for easy implementation with other tech trees.

They should self-deactivate if SETIcontracts are present. So I guess you have no more progression contracts after one of the orbit ones from SETIcontracts?

Based on the SETIcontracts progression chart, when did you stop getting new ones? After unmannedOrbit, unmannedOrbit+Recovery or mannedOrbit?.

edit: I can not see any problems in your folders.

It could simply be that your mission control contract slots for 2star ones are all occupied. You could decline other offered contracts and the other progression contracts should show up eventually.

It is an unfortunate "feature" of KSP for which I did not find a workaround so far.

- - - Updated - - -

Though I have to investigate those SpaceTux contracts, there might be a compatibility problem.

I never got orbit + recovery, I managed to get into space unmanned, unmanned orbit and manned 18km but nothing else.

I declined quite a few 2 star contracts now but never got an orbit + recovery contract.

[Yemo]

Hm, the SpaceTux contracts seem to offer their own massive progression structure.

If you want to use those I recommend only using the InitialContracts and not the SETIcontracts.

Due to squads agency system, removing contract packs or anything which adds agencies is a bad idea (which SETIcontracts does).

If you want to keep your savegame, you could try to delete the SETIcontracts folder and then make a new config somewhere, including this:

AGENT
{
  name = Space Exploration & Technology Initiative

  description = NA

  logoURL = Squad/Agencies/KerbinWorldFirstRecordKeepingSociety
  logoScaledURL = Squad/Agencies/KerbinWorldFirstRecordKeepingSociety_scaled

  mentality = Record
  mentality = Kerbalminded
}

But please make a backup of your save, I m not too familiar with that.

It might be easier to start a new career without SETIcontracts.

- - - Updated - - -

Essentially I do not know how SETIcontracts works together with SpaceTux.

- - - Updated - - -

I never got orbit + recovery, I managed to get into space unmanned, unmanned orbit and manned 18km but nothing else.

I declined quite a few 2 star contracts now but never got an orbit + recovery contract.

Hm, that is very strange. Orbit+Recovery has a failsafe requirement outside of the contract progression. The contract should be in the rotation as soon as one of your vessels achieves orbit around kerbin, regardless of the contracts.