[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[kcs123]

3 hours ago, Yemo said:

SETIrebalance reduces all experiment science to 60%, since realistically everyone installing SETIrebalance also installs Dmagic. And together with SETIcontracts getting some science payouts back, that would result in something like the OP recommended setting for normal gameplay, without touching the difficulty slider in the game options (which is unbalanced itself and more like a grindiness slider).

So, what would be recommendation on difficulty settings for new release ? Normal settings with 100% science and some personal preferences, like plasma blackouts, ground stations, G crew/part effects etc. ?

Currently I play career game in KSP 1.2.1 with 60% of science. Using Dmagic science parts and scansat. Just a few part pack as some mods were unable to catch up with 1.2.1. release and while waiting for those KSP 1.2.2. popede up, so I'm at point one searching for compatible mods that will work in 1.2.2. That would probably take a while, so I will stick for KSP 1.2.1. at least for a week or so, until I start to go planetary travels.

So, yes 60% for science gathering just make a game more grinding, does not create too much of chalange, at least for players familiar with KSP gameplay mechanic. Just made overall progress slower. I also play with only one ground station at KSC and stock comm system because RT is still WIP and updates could possibly be career game breaker, I want to avoid taht since I don't have much time to actualy play the game, so overall career progress is much slower.

Despite that, I was able to create more/less stable comm network, at least for Kerbin SOI, landed a rover at Mun and Minimus, done maned landing at Mun, some tourist flybys are in progrees and just unlocked first worthly antenna to deploy comm satellite on orbit around Kerbol. Just when game started to be interesting, I would probably need to abandon everything due to KSP update. Such is a life.

 

 

[kcs123]

Just noticed some small issue. 0.625m service bay that comes with SETI parts, should be in Payload editor group instead of utility. All other cargo/service bay are now in that section, including fairings. Not of ultimate importance, some of other mods still use utility section too, but it will be less confusing on the long run if those part types are under payload editor section.

[Yemo]

@kcs123

Yep, I try to balance it somewhere between "normal" and "moderate" as a base setting and then manual adjustments from there for special things like ground stations, blackouts, etc.

Entry costs could be activated as a money sink, since it will then cost 3 times the part costs (except for fuel tanks) to unlock.

I m not sure about the level of the science experiment nerf. Imho something between 60 and 70 % would be good. Perhaps going for the 70% for now would be the safer route. The line ScienceGainModifier in the persistent.sfs can be adjusted for existing savegames to compensate for that during an existing career.

 

I find the slower science progression to be somewhat more challenging, since it forces the player to use lesser tech to go to the further away biomes, especially when transporting lots of science experiments. But of course for an experienced player the additional challenge is hardly noticeable. I remember a video from hazard-ish not so long ago, going to eeloo and back with a 3.6 ton vessel with kerbal...

 

As far as I know, ksp 1.2.2 broke nothing at all, as it was a nearly pure bug fix update (hooray!!). Just kopernicus and so on self-deactivating for the moment.

 

That said, module manager is not cleared for 1.2.2 yet. As far as I can tell, nothing changed, but i m contemplating waiting with the releases until that is confirmed.

SETIrebalance and SETIcontracts are ready to go.

A UbM update was long planned as well, will be ready some time during the weekend.

I also recieved a bug report for SETIremoteTechConfig, will check that as well.

Ah, and thank you @kcs123 for the reminder about the SETIprobeParts, I noticed the battery being in the wrong category now, but forgot again. Will have to take a look at those as well. And also check/add some compatibility, specifically for real plume and tweakscale.

SETIgreenhouse should be fine as is.

Next on the todo list is the promised SETIremoteTechSimplified mini mod. Which simply removes the need to point remote tech dishes manually (by just converting all cone dishes to omni antennas  ). Was just not rushing that as remote tech was/is changing.

[kcs123]

3 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Was just not rushing that as remote tech was/is changing.

Better wait one day longer for release than patching everything again and reuploading one or two hours after release if something odd is discovered in dependency mods. I was not using RT as it was not everything settled down between SETI/RT and stock comm compatibility.

When some other mods update their status I will switch to 1.2.2. and start new career game, just to be on safe side from possible kraken.
Meanwhile, I messing more with kOS and alpha release of future kOS GUI:

Developed some scripts for launching rocket, hovering, powered landing, executing maneuver node and driving rover to desired direction and chosen speed. Not way too advanced, but serves purpose. Also, didn't using MJ, KER or TCA in that latest playtrough.

[eupraxo]

Thanks for the quick reply @Yemo! I worked all night tonight and work 2 jobs until Sunday night so hopefully I can check it out then. Thanks again for all your hard work!

[nobodyhasthis2]

On 12/4/2016 at 5:24 PM, Yemo said:

 I m not really working on SETIcontracts anymore, only maintaining them until a viable (small, unmanned first) alternative comes along, which ideally works for multiple planet packs.

Sounds good to me. As as alternative direction (but without planet pack support) people should be looking at Contract Pack: Historical Progression which follows an unmanned path. It does need updated but right now it works ok. IMHO it was found it to be a nice alternative to SETI contracts. Or at least a good starting point for someone that wanted to write an unmanned career start. I like putting things in that can mix up SETI. So it can be played slightly different each time. As far as compatibility issues go it appeared quite stable and remember a particular contracts pack can be switched on and off  at the start of a new game. The only issue is this does not support RT out of the box since it detects if stock transmitter is present. However by adding a stock data transmitter with zero range to a ship the pack works just fine along side RT antennas. 

 One of the essential mods for SETI is also Strategia for giving a great way to add replay value.

On 12/6/2016 at 7:39 PM, SirBriguy said:

I mostly wanted it for more sensible progression and need it to work for GPP which I am about to start. I just learned about Strategia yesterday. I will check it out.

Which again can change a play through depending on the choices picked. So without changing mods it possible to games that feel very different. A great game replay experience. Highly recommended. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[Yemo]

So, a whole lot of updates.

All older versions work without issue with ksp 1.2.2, so if you are in the middle of an existing savegame, not updating is a valid option.
Since most of the changes do not really benefit an existing savegame, but may lead to inconveniences.

 

However if you start a new savegame, there is a new mini mod which brings back some of the challenge of the old SETIcommunityTechTree. I will make the official announcement and listing in the OP when the CKAN integration is done. For now, here is the manual download:

Unmanned Before Manned Challenge

https://github.com/Y3mo/UnmannedBeforeMannedChallenge/releases

UbM required, SETIrebalance and SETIprobeParts strongly recommended

no reaction wheels until 90 science, fuel lines at 550 science, later skipper engine

 

And the main updates:

Unmanned before Manned v1.2.2.0 (for KSP 1.2.x)

Existing careers should stick with UbM 1.2.1.0!

New separate "Unmanned Before Manned - Challenge" mini mod

• Link in the SETI thread, intended for new career games
• SETIrebalance and SETIprobeParts strongly recommended
• Reaction wheels first available at 90 science when UbMchallenge is installed
• FuelLines available at 550 science when UbMchallenge is installed
• Skipper engine one tech node later when UbMchallenge is installed

Stability node 4 science instead of 8, for earlier jets

UbM parts moved around

• RoverBody earlier @engineering101
• Radial materials bay to basicScience (forgot this in 1.2.1.0)
• DockingPort Jr. to advConstruction
• QBE, Stayputnik, OKTO, HECS, SETIprobeSTACK 2, Advanced Inline Stabilizer to miniaturization
• Adv Probes to advUnmanned
• Except for HECS2, which goes to large probes (and might get some special treatment in the future)
• Large reaction wheel to precisionEngineering
• FlyByWire to unmannedTech
• ScienceBox to spaceExploration
• Radiators further down the tech tree, as they are initially pretty useless anyway

 

SETI Rebalance v1.2.2.0 (for KSP 1.2.x )

Science experiment rewards set to 70%

• If that upsets your existing savegame balance, please go to SETIrebalance/SETI-ScienceSettings.cfg
• And then delete lines 37 - 41, or set an experiment reward factor you prefer
• You could also adjust the "ScienceGainMultiplier" in the persistent.sfs of your savegame to compensate
• This is somewhat offset by adding in science returns for SETIcontracts in the parallel update

Entry Costs are now set to 3*costs (SETI-GeneralSettings.cfg lines 70-85), except for fuel tanks

Porkjets new Mk1 pod somewhat rebalanced, other parts still not touched...

RoverBody holds 600 EC instead of 120

Some minor fixes and cost adjustments

 

SETI Contracts v1.2.2.0 (for KSP 1.2.x)

Contracts provide some science again

 

SETI ProbeParts v1.2.2.0 (for KSP 1.2.x)

Part categories adjusted, thank you very much @kcs123

TweakScale support for most parts

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Yemo

[Jackelmyer]

Not sure if you're in the middle of an update to SETI-Greenhouse, but I just lost all the SETI-Greenhouse parts after installing the updates to SETI-Probes, SETI-Rebalance, and Unmanned before Manned (SETI-UbM).

wait sorry, i think this is an issue with TAC Life Support...  ugh.  to many mods.  apologies.

[Jackelmyer]

Ok... I'm back.  Took a bit to figure everything out...

I posted this same comment on the thread associated to the TAC Life Support mod.  An update from one of your mods seems to be removing parts provided by the TAC Life Support mod.

"Just FYI, after a few hours of testing tonight, I seem to have found that the mod "Seti-Rebalance" removes many Hex Containers, especially the ones that contain Food, Oxygen, and Water.  Wasn't able to load vehicles after updating some SETI mods tonight and took a bit to figure out why.  

 

Using CKAN, all I have to do is install or uninstall Seti-Rebalance to reproduce the issue"

Edited December 12, 2016 by Jackelmyer

[Yemo]

7 hours ago, Jackelmyer said:

Ok... I'm back.  Took a bit to figure everything out...

I posted this same comment on the thread associated to the TAC Life Support mod.  An update from one of your mods seems to be removing parts provided by the TAC Life Support mod.

"Just FYI, after a few hours of testing tonight, I seem to have found that the mod "Seti-Rebalance" removes many Hex Containers, especially the ones that contain Food, Oxygen, and Water.  Wasn't able to load vehicles after updating some SETI mods tonight and took a bit to figure out why.  

 

Using CKAN, all I have to do is install or uninstall Seti-Rebalance to reproduce the issue"

SETIrebalance does not remove anything.

TAC life support uses decimal points for some part costs, which trips module manager patches (used by SETIrebalance) for those parts. For example:

TacFoodContainer has cost = 357.4, trips module manager, part is not loaded
TacFoodContainerLarge has cost = 2525.6, trips module manager, part is not loaded
TacFoodContainerLarge375 has cost = 3788.4, trips module manager, part is not loaded
TacFoodContainerSmall has cost = 56,  works fine

I did not know that mm has a problem with those numbers, but I can implement an exception for those parts in the next patch. I would also recommend TAC life support to change to module manager compatible values, especially if the difference is so miniscule. To prevent similar problems in the future, since TAC life support is one of those mods where compatibility with other mods is high on the list. Used module manager for ages, something new to learn every day.

Thank you for the bug report!

Edited December 12, 2016 by Yemo

[Jackelmyer]

 

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

SETIrebalance does not remove anything.

TAC life support uses decimal points for some part costs, which trips module manager patches (used by SETIrebalance) for those parts. For example:

TacFoodContainer has cost = 357.4, trips module manager, part is not loaded
TacFoodContainerLarge has cost = 2525.6, trips module manager, part is not loaded
TacFoodContainerLarge375 has cost = 3788.4, trips module manager, part is not loaded
TacFoodContainerSmall has cost = 56,  works fine

I did not know that mm has a problem with those numbers, but I can implement an exception for those parts in the next patch. I would also recommend TAC life support to change to module manager compatible values, especially if the difference is so miniscule. To prevent similar problems in the future, since TAC life support is one of those mods where compatibility with other mods is high on the list. Used module manager for ages, something new to learn every day.

Thank you for the bug report!

 

I know a fairly large number of food containers dropped off.  The one that prompted my attention was a small Hex container.  Sorry I can't fully recall the name.  Not sure if the TacFoodContainerSmall ties back to the Small Hex Food container and other Hex containers that seemed to fall off.  

Not a problem.  Glad to help!  Does this mean that once module manager is fixed I can reinstall Seti-Rebalance or is this fix being applied directly to Seti-Rebalance?  Thanks for looking into this!

[Yemo]

13 minutes ago, Jackelmyer said:

I know a fairly large number of food containers dropped off.  The one that prompted my attention was a small Hex container.  Sorry I can't fully recall the name.  Not sure if the TacFoodContainerSmall ties back to the Small Hex Food container and other Hex containers that seemed to fall off.  

Not a problem.  Glad to help!  Does this mean that once module manager is fixed I can reinstall Seti-Rebalance or is this fix being applied directly to Seti-Rebalance?  Thanks for looking into this!

Excluded the TAC parts from the module manager patch. Though the underlying problem is not on my end, this should fix it for this constellation. Should work now with the latest version of SETIrebalance.

 

SETI Rebalance v1.2.2.1 (for KSP 1.2.x )

Workaround for TAC-LS module manager incompatible values

K2 Command pod rebalanced

 

 

The K2 command pod is still at the wrong tech tree position until UbM is updated.

Also Unmanned Before Manned Challenge updated to 1.2.2.1, to fix issues with reaction wheels.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Yemo

[Jackelmyer]

18 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Excluded the TAC parts from the module manager patch. Though the underlying problem is not on my end, this should fix it for this constellation. Should work now with the latest version of SETIrebalance.

 

SETI Rebalance v1.2.2.1 (for KSP 1.2.x )

Workaround for TAC-LS module manager incompatible values

K2 Command pod rebalanced

 

 

The K2 command pod is still at the wrong tech tree position until UbM is updated.

Also Unmanned Before Manned Challenge updated to 1.2.2.1, to fix issues with reaction wheels.

Thank you!

 

I'll give it a shot once the update pops up for CKAN.   Just so I don't lose it now that I found the blasted part name... "HexCanLifeSupportSmall"...  If I don't note it... I'll need it... If I do note it... I won't...  

[nobodyhasthis2]

11 minutes ago, Yemo said:

Excluded the TAC parts from the module manager patch. Though the underlying problem is not on my end, this should fix it for this constellation. Should work now with the latest version of SETIrebalance.

I never noticed this either. Did not know that parts are not loaded. Ever since all the TAC parts got put in a side node. I have never used any of them. Always used Procedural Parts instead.Or dare I say it, Universal Storage. I always felt that there was too much clutter in the VAB with TAC. Did not know the tidy layout was partly due to minor bug in MM. Still learning stuff.

[Jackelmyer]

Hey Yemo?  Is CKAN going to still show the available version for this as 1.2.2?  Was wondering how long it may take for CKAN to recognize the 1.2.2.1 update.  Sorry, still a mod community newb.

Thanks again for all your help!

Edited December 12, 2016 by Jackelmyer
spelling

[Yemo]

18 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

I never noticed this either. Did not know that parts are not loaded. Ever since all the TAC parts got put in a side node. I have never used any of them. Always used Procedural Parts instead.Or dare I say it, Universal Storage. I always felt that there was too much clutter in the VAB with TAC. Did not know the tidy layout was partly due to minor bug in MM. Still learning stuff.

I think the problem only became apparent with the 1.2.2.0 update, since that one uses cost to determine entryCost. But yeah, unexpected.

1 minute ago, Jackelmyer said:

Hey Yemo?  Is CKAN going to still show the available version for this as 1.2.2?  Was wondering how long it may take for CKAN to recognize the 1.2.2.1 update.  Sorry, still a mod community newb.

Thanks again for all your help!

No idea how long it takes, depends on the cycle of the ckan bot. Might take minutes, might take several hours.

[nobodyhasthis2]

49 minutes ago, Jackelmyer said:

Hey Yemo?  Is CKAN going to still show the available version for this as 1.2.2?  Was wondering how long it may take for CKAN to recognize the 1.2.2.1 update.  Sorry, still a mod community newb.

Thanks again for all your help!

29 minutes ago, Yemo said:

No idea how long it takes, depends on the cycle of the ckan bot. Might take minutes, might take several hours.

No idea what the current cycle time as I have not followed the development for months now. All I can do is show the bot report page http://status.ksp-ckan.org/ 

It shows when the bot last got to a mod and tried it out. If the index data is less that the last release wait it out some more. This of course is not KSP version specific but a still a really useful tool. 

 

 

[Jackelmyer]

Updates in CKAN, applied, tested.  All good now.  Good job and thanks again!

[Sol Invictus]

@Yemo Is it intentional feature of SETI Rebalance that I can't scale the diameter of Procedural SRB down to the size of 0.625m probe? I was always using Procedural SRB this way at the beginning of RO/RP-0 career, and I don't get why I can't do the same with SETI. Do these limits change after certain tech nodes are unlocked?

edit: I'm using SETI Rebalance 1.2.1 along with Procedural Parts 1.2.8 on KSP 1.2.1.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Sol Invictus

[Yemo]

@Sol Invictus Hm I did not play with procedural parts for a long time. But as far as I remember, those diameter restrictions were not part of SETIrebalance, but of SETIcommunityTechTree.

Honestly, I do not even remember playing with procedural parts and UbM. Not sure if UbM has any configs for procedural parts. I remember that with SETIctt, there were some issues with the starting diameter, but I also remember screenshots with 0.625m procedural SRBs. So it might just be a lack of UbM configs.

[Sol Invictus]

@Yemo

I don't have SETI Community Tech Tree in my game. I'm using Unmanned Before Manned 1.2.1 along with Community Tech Tree 3.0.2.

I was assuming that those restrictions were implemented somewhere in "0ProceduralParts" folder of SETI Rebalance. If not, where else?

I found yet another problem - procedural nose cone can't be resized to any reasonable forms at the beginning of the game (I don't know if it changes with latter tech nodes unlocked). Particularly, I wanted to create sounding rocket like the first one from the left in the attached picture, but found out it's impossible due to ridiculous restrictions.

I just tested procedural decoupler/separator, and it can't be scaled down to the size of 0.625m probe as well. It doesn't make any logical sense, since the same tech node that unlocks procedural decoupler/separator also gives you stock decouplers/separators of both standard and 0.625m sizes.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Sol Invictus

[Bombaatu]

I installed the UBM tech tree & tried to start a game. I got a dialog telling me to choose which tech tree to load, but the only choice was Stock. 

Am I missing something?

 

EDIT: Disregard - I did a clean install & now see the UBM tech tree.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Bombaatu

[Yemo]

@Sol Invictus

Yep, UbM does not support procedural parts at the moment, so the tech restrictions of procedural parts itself are applied. As far as I remember, procedural parts itself starts with a min diamter of 1.25m and you need some node to go lower (miniaturization?).

A bit of history:

The picture is very old (2 years?), from ksp 0.90 (with the old Mk1 inline cockpit), where there was only one big SETI mod, called SETI BalanceMod. Before it was split up into parts, among them SETIcommunityTechTree and what is now SETIrebalance and SETIcontracts and some of the mini mods. Later on, a much simpler and more accessible spinoff from SETIctt was created, called Unmanned Before Manned. And then somehow UbM became the main tech tree mod, while SETIctt was not updated anymore. SETIctt retained only parts of SETI BalanceMod and UbM retained only parts of SETIctt. Procedural parts configs just did not make it yet from SETIctt into UbM, though funnily, they were the centerpiece of the original SETI BalanceMod.

For posterity, the old main post for the SETI BalanceMod for ksp 0.90 is preserved as the second post of this very thread, unfortunately broken due to the forum code change and of course the kerbalstuff links are dead now.

With the "Unmanned Before Manned Challenge" mini mod in addition to UbM, the progression is pretty close to SETIctt and the old SETI BalanceMod again.

 

Will make some configs for UbM/procedural parts, for UbM 1.2.2.1.

[RobertJPowell]

Yeah, I poked around in the PP configs and made a custom edit for my own purposes to allow me to go down to 0.625mm size. The challenge mode really is quite difficult given that achieving orbit requires unlocking rcs. - Really does take you back when using rover/firespitter mods as you have to do non contract missions to get that science.

 

For my own play through, I decided to go with 100% science, 150% funds 150% penalties (you really have to work hard to get the cash to upgrade KSC!), a slight modification to the location of in the tree of a few parts (the nose cone, the launch clamp), 20 starting science, 0 starting funds, strategia and historic missions.

 

I'll get some photos of my early craft in my next play through

[Sol Invictus]

What is challenge mode? And why do I hear about it just now?

Edited December 21, 2016 by Sol Invictus