[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics

[dark jam]

4 hours ago, allista said:

Ah, so basically it works, just not as you expect it to. Then could you describe more verbosely the situation: the design of a ship you're using (you may post a screenshot, too), what you're trying to do and what exactly happens.

I am using the stock osprey i am flying at around 1000m and 300ms i press land but it does not take control, the only way it takes any type of control is if i press a button that says "LA" in a crosshair even then it just wiggles and goes back straight

 

is this enough

http://imgur.com/a/9Qgvx

Umm i forgot to enable it *facepalm

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by dark jam

[Arglebargle]

6 hours ago, allista said:

This is definitely MM's problem, because the absence of these info messages means TCA modules are not being installed by MM. Does MM loading screen appears at all on game start, btw? You know, when it prints "applying patches" or some such. Also, is ModuleManager.dll  and ThrottleControledAvionics folder reside directly in GameData folder? And the @kcs123's question: are you using Blizzy's Toolbar or the stock Application Launcher?

Logs: on Windows(x64) it's KSP(_x64)_Data/output_log.txt, on Linux it's ~/.config/unity3d/Squad/Kerbal Space Program/Player.log

There are two versions of 3.0.1, for KSP-1.0.5 and for 1.1; but if you say the 3.0.0 is not working, there's something wrong with the installation. Check that the latest ModuleManager is properly installed, that ThrottleControlledAvionics folder is directly in GameData, and, if you're playing in Career mode, that you have purchased TCA in R&D.

Ah, yes, there are lots of error messages about loading TCA in the log. I am using the stock toolbar. TCA and modulemanager.dll are both in GameData. MM loading screen says 472 modules patched from cache.

output log file

[subitan]

I'm struggling with one thing, though the mod generally is working exactly as I'd hoped.  However, when I made a reasonably weight-balanced craft with vtol fans, if I attempt to rise too quickly, the nose starts pitching up.  I've tried adjusting weight balance so the trust is ahead or behind the center of mass, and it makes no difference... if I attempt to rise too quickly, my nose pitches up and I end up flipping over. 

I have four ducted fan parts on balanced, and one horizontally placed engine on manual.  The craft works very cleanly if I use hover mode but only attempt to rise slowly (say, using pre-set altitude and adding +10 at a time, but not getting more than 60 ahead of my current altitude).

Am I missing something in the theory here? Does it relate to my horizontally placed engine? 

[allista]

6 hours ago, Arglebargle said:

Ah, yes, there are lots of error messages about loading TCA in the log. I am using the stock toolbar. TCA and modulemanager.dll are both in GameData. MM loading screen says 472 modules patched from cache.

output log file

Hmm... the only thing that can think of is that you're trying to use the version compiled for KSP-1.1. Pleasy, try to download this file:

http://spacedock.info/mod/198/Throttle%20Controlled%20Avionics/download/v3.0.1

and reinstall TCA, deleting the whole ThrottleControlledAvionics folder first. I should have changed the build number in assembly for KSP-1.1 so that I could see this straight from the logs, but alas, we're always so clever in hindsight.

If that won't help, I'm out of the ideas 

[allista]

5 hours ago, subitan said:

I'm struggling with one thing, though the mod generally is working exactly as I'd hoped.  However, when I made a reasonably weight-balanced craft with vtol fans, if I attempt to rise too quickly, the nose starts pitching up.  I've tried adjusting weight balance so the trust is ahead or behind the center of mass, and it makes no difference... if I attempt to rise too quickly, my nose pitches up and I end up flipping over. 

I have four ducted fan parts on balanced, and one horizontally placed engine on manual.  The craft works very cleanly if I use hover mode but only attempt to rise slowly (say, using pre-set altitude and adding +10 at a time, but not getting more than 60 ahead of my current altitude).

Am I missing something in the theory here? Does it relate to my horizontally placed engine? 

No, horizontal engine has nothing to do with this. And it's only logical that changing CoM does nothing -- TCA just rebalances the thrust to compensate for the shifted CoM.

The reason your craft pitches is the drag force, which differs between the nose and the tail of the craft. So what happens is this: TCA balances your engines so that they always give zero torque (Balanced Thrust mode), the craft starts raising and the air drag starts to flip it (push F12 to see the drag overlay arrows on parts), but unless you're using Main Engine mode, TCA is helpless; even if you'd set the engines to Main, you should also use the Level program or the Hold T-SAS program to tell TCA to hold the attitude.

Edited April 11, 2016 by allista

[kcs123]

@Arglebargle, throwing blind shots here, but if you are actually on KSP 1.0.5. and have proper TCA version, reason why you have issues might be latest MM that is created for KSP 1.1. and is not legacy compatible with 1.0.5.

MM can be shiped with some other mod that pack latest version of MM with mod (for example some mod that properly works with 1.0.5 adn 1.1.). While mod itself work fine it might not be true for MM.

@subitan, your problem might be similar to my, when I messed with various heli/vtol design. You need to limit vertical climb rate to 10 m/s or you can have fliping issues due to drag forces as Allista described. It is not issue on Mun or Minimus, but you will have problems at Kerbin.

[allista]

1 hour ago, kcs123 said:

@Arglebargle, throwing blind shots here, but if you are actually on KSP 1.0.5. and have proper TCA version, reason why you have issues might be latest MM that is created for KSP 1.1. and is not legacy compatible with 1.0.5.

MM can be shiped with some other mod that pack latest version of MM with mod (for example some mod that properly works with 1.0.5 adn 1.1.). While mod itself work fine it might not be true for MM.

Nah, not MM problem: the logs clearly show that KSP is unable to initialize types from TCA dll.

[Arglebargle]

15 hours ago, allista said:

Hmm... the only thing that can think of is that you're trying to use the version compiled for KSP-1.1. Pleasy, try to download this file:

http://spacedock.info/mod/198/Throttle%20Controlled%20Avionics/download/v3.0.1

and reinstall TCA, deleting the whole ThrottleControlledAvionics folder first. I should have changed the build number in assembly for KSP-1.1 so that I could see this straight from the logs, but alas, we're always so clever in hindsight.

If that won't help, I'm out of the ideas 

Thanks, this did it! I was using the wrong version of TCA.

Now if I could figure out how to get it to hover this thing...

Four radial aerospikes with a TWR ~1.3 when landing. I can get it down within a 2 km radius of KSC with 1000 m/s delta v left in the tanks, but I can't get it onto the pad or the runway. I would like it to land for a 100% recovery, and I believe it has the capability! TCA does not seem to be taking over throttle control when asked to maneuver in pad tests. In pad tests TCA does not seem to be taking over throttle control of these engines when asked to hover or follow waypoints. It points the nose in the correct direction to hover over to the waypoint, but does not ascend or descend without manual throttle inputs.

Action shot:

 

Sitting on the pad with TCA engaged. Auto-throttle is active but as you can see the throttle is still at 50%. The ship has the thrust for VTOL. The engines are default profile, classified by TCA as main engines. What do I need to do to get it to fly me around like a quadrocket?

[SaintWacko]

I'm sure I'm doing something stupid here, but I've purchased the various parts in R&D and yet all my command modules are saying TCA is unavailable. I tried starting up a sandbox game and it worked there, but I can't get it working in my career game.

[allista]

8 hours ago, Arglebargle said:

Thanks, this did it! I was using the wrong version of TCA.

Now if I could figure out how to get it to hover this thing...

Four radial aerospikes with a TWR ~1.3 when landing. I can get it down within a 2 km radius of KSC with 1000 m/s delta v left in the tanks, but I can't get it onto the pad or the runway. I would like it to land for a 100% recovery, and I believe it has the capability! TCA does not seem to be taking over throttle control when asked to maneuver in pad tests. In pad tests TCA does not seem to be taking over throttle control of these engines when asked to hover or follow waypoints. It points the nose in the correct direction to hover over to the waypoint, but does not ascend or descend without manual throttle inputs.

Action shot:

 

Sitting on the pad with TCA engaged. Auto-throttle is active but as you can see the throttle is still at 50%. The ship has the thrust for VTOL. The engines are default profile, classified by TCA as main engines. What do I need to do to get it to fly me around like a quadrocket?

On your screenshot look at the grey "Enabled" button in the top left corner of TCA window and at the grey status string to the right saying "Disabled". Push this button to enable TCA; it should become green (as well as TCA button in the toolbar).

5 hours ago, SaintWacko said:

I'm sure I'm doing something stupid here, but I've purchased the various parts in R&D and yet all my command modules are saying TCA is unavailable. I tried starting up a sandbox game and it worked there, but I can't get it working in my career game.

You need to purchase special TCA parts (they look like little blue boxes). Here's the TechTree graph that shows where they are. Note the red arrows: these indicate additional dependencies between TCA modules. E.g. for Landing Autopilot to work, you need also purchase the Navigation Module and Altitude Control Module.

Edited April 12, 2016 by allista

[SaintWacko]

6 hours ago, allista said:

You need to purchase special TCA parts (they look like little blue boxes). Here's the TechTree graph that shows where they are. Note the red arrows: these indicate additional dependencies between TCA modules. E.g. for Landing Autopilot to work, you need also purchase the Navigation Module and Altitude Control Module.

Right, I did that. Sorry, that's what I meant by I purchased them in R&D.

[allista]

4 hours ago, SaintWacko said:

Right, I did that. Sorry, that's what I meant by I purchased them in R&D.

Sorry for misunderstanding. And just to be sure, you did bought the main Throttle Controlled Avionics Subsystem part in Stability node, right?

If so, could you publish the log? (see above for the location on your OS)

[SaintWacko]

5 hours ago, allista said:

Sorry for misunderstanding. And just to be sure, you did bought the main Throttle Controlled Avionics Subsystem part in Stability node, right?

If so, could you publish the log? (see above for the location on your OS)

Ah-ha! I'm using the Engineering Tech Tree mod, and hadn't unlocked that node yet, or, in fact, noticed it at all. Well, I told you I was probably doing something stupid! Thanks for your help, I'll unlock that when I get home and get back to work on my hovercraft!

 

Edit: It works! Such a simple solution! I always have TCA installed, but I haven't really used it before now. It's amazing!

Edited April 12, 2016 by SaintWacko

[Arget]

How do i do a perfect suicide burn ?
If i do "Land" it just decents with 10m/s max (can figure out how to change that too)
But i want to do a spaceX style Suicide burn, how ?

thanks

[allista]

7 hours ago, Arget said:

How do i do a perfect suicide burn ?
If i do "Land" it just decents with 10m/s max (can figure out how to change that too)
But i want to do a spaceX style Suicide burn, how ?

thanks

TCA is not intended for this use-case; in fact, I doubt any mod is. For a perfect powered landing you need to account for everything in a particular rocket, including lift/drag effects and changes in Isp (if you're landing in atmosphere), latency of changing thrust and attitude, particular landing trajectory, etc. This means tons of simulations and data gathering prior to actual landing. That is what SpaceX does. And that's what you have to do if you want to reproduce the result even in a simulated setting like KSP.

TCA's "Land" program is a completely different story: it is a landing algorithm that achieves smooth robust landing of any VTOL-capable ship in any conditions by adapting its behaviour through many feedback loops. Its main feature is an automated search for appropriate landing site. It is not fuel-efficient and is not intended for deorbiting, only for on-planet flights.

[SaintWacko]

On 1/24/2015 at 6:35 AM, Mipe said:

Intriguing mod. Question: does it play nice with infernal robotics and engines on rotatrons/hinges/whatever?

It does. I've used it before with a fancy VTOL orbital shuttle with swiveling engines, and it worked perfectly. It could even maintain balance through form transitions.

[CatastrophicFailure]

Hi all. Been playing around with this for a few days and generally figuring things out, but I'm completely stumped with the main thing I'm trying to do, which should be the simplest. I'm trying to make a very small VTOL with a single engine at the center of mass. I can get several designs like this to fly without TCA, at least for a few seconds.  But with TCA it keeps killing the thrust. I've tried setting the engine to balanced, main, etc, but I'm obviously missing something very important and probably also very simple. Here's an example:

Tried all the control settings, hover, etc, but I'm stuck.

So... what am I doing wrong?

[allista]

2 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

Hi all. Been playing around with this for a few days and generally figuring things out, but I'm completely stumped with the main thing I'm trying to do, which should be the simplest. I'm trying to make a very small VTOL with a single engine at the center of mass. I can get several designs like this to fly without TCA, at least for a few seconds.  But with TCA it keeps killing the thrust. I've tried setting the engine to balanced, main, etc, but I'm obviously missing something very important and probably also very simple.

Tried all the control settings, hover, etc, but I'm stuck.

So... what am I doing wrong?

You're doing nothing wrong, but this simplest thing, I'm afraid, is the one that TCA can't do. The core of this mod is an engine balancing algorithm, but to balance engines you need at least a pair of them around the CoM. What happens in your case is that your lifting engine's thrust is in fact not collinear with the CoM slightly, but that is enough to create considerable torque for so light a craft. TCA detects that and tries to optimize the thrust of available engines to minimize torque; but it has only a single engine, which results in lowering its thrust until the produced torque is tolerable.

The solution is simple: add at least one other lifting engine (small one should suffice if put far enough from CoM). And for manual flying I would recommend to set them to Balanced Thrust mode.

Edit: but if you're using BT mode, remember to provide the craft with other torque generators -- reaction wheels, RCS or engines in Maneuvering mode.

Edited April 14, 2016 by allista

[Snacksquatch]

I was getting some crashing last night in x64 with TCA installed on 1.1 Pre-Release. Light on Mods, mostly visual. KSP was stable once TCA was uninstalled.

2 crashes. Once while reverting back to the SPH and once while attaching/removing/deleting a single J-33. 

I'll try to repro tonight and dig up the logs. 

[DeepSlayLP]

Hi, I have a question:

With the new update, TCA is screwing with the XCOM vtol. meaning I set the hover height to 170m and TCA stops at around 105 m and then descends again. It has nothing to do with the craft because the engines are powerful enough. How can I fix that?

-Jag

[hyf97ca]

With KSP 1.1 and increased part count capability, I can finally build a starcraft-style command center, and thanks to this mod, I'll be able to lift it off and fly it around! Hmm, maybe pair it with BD Armory and create Starcraft:KSP edition?

[Logan.Darklighter]

I'd like to put in a huge kudos and a "well done!" for a truly awesome mod. 

It's probably been mentioned before, but I just have to reiterate it - one of the best parts about TCA is that it reacts so quickly to altitude and velocity changes that it can actually make jet VTOLs stay rock solid at a set altitude. Now THAT's impressive. 

It allowed me an incredibly smooth VTOL landing of my version of Thunderbird 2 on a carrier deck. AT NIGHT. 

That's just NOT possible without this mod! It opens up a LOT of options! 

One thing as a suggestion - just one. 

Can you make it so that you can adjust the heading of your craft in 0-360 degree increments while hovering? Would make it a lot easier to set down a craft or pivot it for more precise landing or mid-air drop-offs. 

[allista]

10 hours ago, DeepSlayLP said:

Hi, I have a question:

With the new update, TCA is screwing with the XCOM vtol. meaning I set the hover height to 170m and TCA stops at around 105 m and then descends again. It has nothing to do with the craft because the engines are powerful enough. How can I fix that?

-Jag

Interesting question  But since I have no idea what the XCOM VTOL is and how it's built, I'm afraid, I don't know the answer.

Perhaps, you could describe the craft a bit, attach a screenshot, or, if it's stock, a .craft file. Then we could try to work something out.

9 hours ago, hyf97ca said:

With KSP 1.1 and increased part count capability, I can finally build a starcraft-style command center, and thanks to this mod, I'll be able to lift it off and fly it around! Hmm, maybe pair it with BD Armory and create Starcraft:KSP edition?

I would love to see that 

[allista]

4 hours ago, Logan.Darklighter said:

I'd like to put in a huge kudos and a "well done!" for a truly awesome mod. 

It's probably been mentioned before, but I just have to reiterate it - one of the best parts about TCA is that it reacts so quickly to altitude and velocity changes that it can actually make jet VTOLs stay rock solid at a set altitude. Now THAT's impressive. 

It allowed me an incredibly smooth VTOL landing of my version of Thunderbird 2 on a carrier deck. AT NIGHT. 

That's just NOT possible without this mod! It opens up a LOT of options! 

One thing as a suggestion - just one. 

Can you make it so that you can adjust the heading of your craft in 0-360 degree increments while hovering? Would make it a lot easier to set down a craft or pivot it for more precise landing or mid-air drop-offs. 

Thanks)

And good idea. I think I add it to Cruise Control module which needs some visible bearing control anyway.

But even now you can do the thing using a Bearing macro. It's not usable for real-time adjustments, buy you could program the whole landing sequence, including bearing correction.

[DeepSlayLP]

http://imgur.com/m4tkA6f

 

That is the craft. It has two vtol engines at the back of the main fuselage and two on the wings one one each also more to the center of the main fuselage. At the back are three stock engines used to balance the craft.