Squadcast Summary (24/01/2015) - The Valentina Edition

[basic.syntax]

Nice ESA pics Bill Phil is referring to the pic on Procedural Fairings addon release page - which supports payloads "substantially" wider, my rough guess says it looks four or five times wider than a size 2 rocket body.

What Procedural does is remove the building challenge of moving parts around on your payload and making trade-offs, perhaps playing a little "Tetris" - to only needing to think about Delta-V, and how many stages you might need to get it up there. You might decide to forget about the fairing, if none of the fixed-size ones are large enough, if you really want the payload up there as-is, and use "moar boosters!" to fight the new drag we will be getting.

Yes, Procedural makes life easier and I will use them, if they are added. (Which seems likely!) But, I don't mind the extra challenge of making things fit within limits. In Career mode, KSP forces us to think about our builds very carefully, with the parts/mass/size limits of the SPH/VAB tiers. This mirrors some of the real-life concerns in rocketry. Fixed-size fairings are a continuation of that metaphor.

[Brotoro]

Until Squad gives us hinges to make foldable payloads (like spacecraft designers have in real life), I won't let it concern me if my payload diameters are unrealistic. Don't give me the limitation if you aren't going to give me the corresponding work-around.

[Commander Zoom]

Well said, Brotoro.

[Kerano]

Thanks once again for the transcription, ObsessedWithKSP. Much appreciated as always.

Interesting that the design decision on fairings has changed from "they'll never be stock" to "they'll definitely be stock" in the past few months. I'll be interested to try them out.

Looking forward to the bigger landing gear and wings.

Tourism contract sounds good, would still like to get contracts that use your existing spaceships (e.g. "add X tonnes of fuel to Y" or "add Z crew to Y").

Glad to hear there'll be an additional Tier of buildings, the VAB and Launchpad in particular could really use an extra tier between 30-255 parts and 18-140 tonnes respectively.

Not entirely sure about deep space refueling, I've always thought tanker stations were supposed to be an integral part of the game. Guess we'll see how it affects game balance in the next update.

[basic.syntax]

Hinges would be nice

But a work-around, is thinking about the tools at hand. Maybe it takes extra trips and docking ports, to assemble a larger design in space because it doesn't fit inside any fixed-sized fairing. Or suffer the drag and use more boosters.

Consider the scenario in Apollo 13, where engineers had to build an adapter for CO filters, out of the random parts at hand in the lunar lander and service module. That's the kind of creative thinking I like KSP to inspire. (We will still have that in the early career mode tiers.)

[Bill Phil]

You heard it here, folks. Fairings wider than the rocket are totally unrealistic.

http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/images/esa_multimedia/images/2013/04/ariane_6_concepts_under_investigation/12609532-1-eng-GB/Ariane_6_concepts_under_investigation_node_full_image_2.jpg

Actually, fairings like those are perfectly fine. I was refering to being SUBSTANTIALLY wider and very very strangely shaped.

[Superfluous J]

Actually, fairings like those are perfectly fine. I was refering to being SUBSTANTIALLY wider and very very strangely shaped.

ESA Hax. No way we can get anything that would actually need a fairing inside a fairing that small without major part clipping.

[BinaryBad]

In response to people who think female Kerbals are gimmicky, or just an aesthetic thing. First thing my daughter said when she saw me play KSP, was "Are there girl Kerbals?" - she's so used to games trying to exclude her because shes a girl. I just told her they were going be added, and now she wants to start a game of her own, for the first time. Stuff like this matters. Science and KSP should be be for anyone. Girl Kerbals are going to kick ass.

[Janos1986]

My top pilot in my actual savegame is a female, according to TextureReplacer at least.

Anyway I'd like my tourist kerbals with an hawaiian-ish spacesuit.

[kujuman]

I don't get why people keep making this argument. Having fixed fairing sizes was never a challenge in real life (it's just an aeroshell- they design it to whatever specs are needed), and it wouldn't be a challenge in the game even if they did things that way either. All it would be is annoying- you would just have to use fairings a full size larger than your payload if the payload was just a *tiny* bit too large to the closest size...

Regards,

Northstar

Yeahhhhh, about that...

Fairings for modern launchers are standardized. Custom fairings for each payload would require new jigs every time, engineering every time, testing every time, etc. So let's take another look at your statement:

"I don't get why people keep making this argument. [Right back at you] Having fixed fairing sizes was never a challenge in real life [exactly...which is why we don't see the equivalent of custom fairings] (it's just an aeroshell- they design it to whatever specs are needed)[not for every payload. think, "it's just a fuel tank- they design it to whatever specs are needed"], and it wouldn't be a challenge in the game even if they did things that way either. [Great, so standard fairings aren't a problem?] All it would be is annoying- you would just have to use fairings a full size larger than your payload if the payload was just a *tiny* bit too large to the closest size... [squad should also include procedural engines, since it's annoying that you'd have to use engines a full size larger if your payload is just a *tiny* bit too massive to the closest size. And procedural crew. I only want the brain of Jeb to control SAS, I don't really want to lug around his whole body.]"

The way KW fairings work is great for basically everyone who isn't launching space stations in one go. And because they are modeled and textured, they always look the same. For people who are launching space stations in one go: just don't bother with the fairings! Launch the way you did in all versions of KSP until 1.0. Just brute force it the same way you're brute forcing a crazy payload, moar boosters and moar tailfins.

I'm not opposed to p-fairings in concept, but unlimited p-fairings are just silly. Maybe max diameter is 2x base diameter? Max height limits 10x base diameter?

[Superfluous J]

I'm not opposed to p-fairings in concept, but unlimited p-fairings are just silly. Maybe max diameter is 2x base diameter? Max height limits 10x base diameter?

Totes agreed. I'd even like height=[tech level] x base diameter.

Or here's a crazy thought: give oddly shaped fairings all the aerodynamic problems they'd have in real life.

[Rune]

Squad could implement some sort of AOE refueling. Like, any fuel tank within 50 meters of the "drill" or "converter" or whatever gets filled. This would remove the little fiddly bits involved in ISRU but would eliminate the need to land right on the docking port at my Minmus ground base, something I think everybody should try at least once

That would be easy, yeah, but frankly? Much less rewarding. I find that the minutes where I am fiddling with KAS are among the most fulfilling gametime I have at KSP, and kerbals still needs stuff to do besides planting flags and collecting science. I don't even need the winches and stuff, just the ability to add and remove certain parts from ships on the fly IMO improves the game a lot. Forgot a solar panel? No problemo, service mission and we are set. And I seem to remember people asking for engineers being able to fix solar panels and that...

Rune. That can actually be done already with a KAS container, but it is a bit cheaty.

[Caelib]

In response to people who think female Kerbals are gimmicky, or just an aesthetic thing. First thing my daughter said when she saw me play KSP, was "Are there girl Kerbals?" - she's so used to games trying to exclude her because shes a girl. I just told her they were going be added, and now she wants to start a game of her own, for the first time. Stuff like this matters. Science and KSP should be be for anyone. Girl Kerbals are going to kick ass.

Well-said ... to add that, here is a good quote from a scientific research study: "video game characters have the potential to shape players’ perceptions of gender roles. Through social comparison processes, players learn societal expectations of appearances, behaviors and roles." So the absence of female Kerbals might be interpreted as "no role in space/science".

[Frozen_Heart]

I admit I was a bit worried that adding female kerbals was going to take away from the rest of the update. Good to see that it looks like I was wrong about that. Very glad they're being added though as though I think that Kerbals were meant to be andro they ended up looking stereotypically male.

Only think I'm a bit off about is lack of re-entry heat for version 1.0. A mild version of it just to stop players slamming directly into kerbin would be nice. I think that the next version should stay beta to test all these new features before moving onto version 1.0

[basic.syntax]

(click link: ) Where are all the Lego girls? 7-year-old wants answers

In 2011, Lego vowed to make its toys more appealing to girls. The Danish company was trying to strike balance between creativity and construction."Simply producing a pink version of the boys' products is not enough," said Marko Ilincic, the company's U.K. managing director

[Ikaneko]

I admit I was a bit worried that adding female kerbals was going to take away from the rest of the update. Good to see that it looks like I was wrong about that. Very glad they're being added though as though I think that Kerbals were meant to be andro they ended up looking stereotypically male.

Only think I'm a bit off about is lack of re-entry heat for version 1.0. A mild version of it just to stop players slamming directly into kerbin would be nice. I think that the next version should stay beta to test all these new features before moving onto version 1.0

Great points. I wish that we could get stock re-entry heat at some point in the near future. One of my favourite ksp memories was trying to slap a mystery goo on my mk1 command pod in my brief spell with DRC.

[NecroBones]

I'd be OK with stock reentry heat as long as it's a feature that only defaults to "on" for the upper skill-level presets. I think the normal/easy modes work pretty well right now, in that just getting to space in back is already enough of an engineering and flight-control challenge. But having it there for those who want it, is great. However the fact that we'll already get some aerodynamically induced destruction coming up in 1.0 will already make things more interesting.

[rkman]

I'm getting mixed signals as to whether the next version of KSP will be beta or not.

The version number "1.0" and "out of Early Access" suggest it will not be beta, but they also talk about it in terms of beta, and more updates after 1.0 are already planned, suggesting they know 1.0 will need some work before it is a candidate for final release.

"they have beta plans to talk about"

"Beta isn't so much about adding features, it's more about refining current things, like rebalancing systems"

That's not about 0.9 beta, right - it is about what they are working on now: the next release, numbered 1.0. Which is referred to in terms of "beta".

"Beyond Beta"... "the next update will be our 1.0 release, and with it we will be leaving Early Access."

"after 1.0 is out, we will continue on with free updates 1.1, 1.2, and so on."

I think i'll stick to "1.0 beta", and assume a candidate for final release will be a few releases after 1.0.

[Starwaster]

I'm not opposed to p-fairings in concept, but unlimited p-fairings are just silly. Maybe max diameter is 2x base diameter? Max height limits 10x base diameter?

Have you tried the mod Procedural Fairings? Those have limits based on what technologies you've unlocked. Unless you're in sandbox mode.

[Bill Phil]

I'm getting mixed signals as to whether the next version of KSP will be beta or not.

The version number "1.0" and "out of Early Access" suggest it will not be beta, but they also talk about it in terms of beta, and more updates after 1.0 are already planned, suggesting they know 1.0 will need some work before it is a candidate for final release.

"they have beta plans to talk about"

"Beta isn't so much about adding features, it's more about refining current things, like rebalancing systems"

That's not about 0.9 beta, right - it is about what they are working on now: the next release, numbered 1.0. Which is referred to in terms of "beta".

"Beyond Beta"... "the next update will be our 1.0 release, and with it we will be leaving Early Access."

"after 1.0 is out, we will continue on with free updates 1.1, 1.2, and so on."

I think i'll stick to "1.0 beta", and assume a candidate for final release will be a few releases after 1.0.

They've said that 1.0 is the goal, and anything beyond is their gift to us. So, technically a full release.

[kujuman]

Have you tried the mod Procedural Fairings? Those have limits based on what technologies you've unlocked. Unless you're in sandbox mode.

I'm really tired of these kinds of responses on this forum. The emphasis on "tried" takes it from helpful update on p'fairings to condescending.

That said, I never said p'fairings didn't have limits, just that there ought to be limits on any p'fairings squad makes. Which really means that p'fairings would save part count more than anything compared against KW style fairings.

[Brotoro]

...I'm not opposed to p-fairings in concept, but unlimited p-fairings are just silly. Maybe max diameter is 2x base diameter? Max height limits 10x base diameter?

I don't understand why people feel the urge to try to limit what OTHER players might want to design. What if I want to build something like the old Otrag concept (see below)? Their idea was to use a simple standardized propulsion module (long and thin), with the lower stages essentially wrapped as layers of modules around the upper stages. The fairing, which is connected to the small-diameter upper stages, is wide enough to cover the width of the whole booster at launch. Your restrictions would prevent other players from experimenting with such designs.

A huge fairing should have a large mass (fairing mass should depend on the surface area of the fairing). Huge fairings have a huge frontal area that has to be pushed through the atmospheric drag. Huge fairings should have a higher cost. You shouldn't need to put any arbitrary limitations on what other players want to fly...because the laws of physics and economics implemented in the game should be what limits rocketeers...just like in real life.

[Superfluous J]

You shouldn't need to put any arbitrary limitations on what other players want to fly...because the laws of physics and economics implemented in the game should be what limits rocketeers...just like in real life.

Career mode DOES put arbitrary limitations on what players can do, though. 30 parts. 18 tons. no access to larger (or smaller) tanks and engines until you work for it.

I will correct my "base x tech level" maximum length, and say maybe instead, "base x 2 x tech level" with the highest tech level tier being unlimited length.

I also think that fairings like those in the Procedural Fairings OP should have serious drag and stability issues.

[Brotoro]

Career mode DOES put arbitrary limitations on what players can do, though. 30 parts. 18 tons. no access to larger (or smaller) tanks and engines until you work for it.

And I disagree with the concept that Career mode should have an artificial limit on the number of parts you can use. What's the justification for that? Your available funds should limit what parts you use. I'm OK with the current level of your VAB and launch pad technology limiting your rocket's size and mass.

[Starwhip]

Career mode DOES put arbitrary limitations on what players can do, though. 30 parts. 18 tons. no access to larger (or smaller) tanks and engines until you work for it.

I will correct my "base x tech level" maximum length, and say maybe instead, "base x 2 x tech level" with the highest tech level tier being unlimited length.

I also think that fairings like those in the Procedural Fairings OP should have serious drag and stability issues.

The Mass and Size limits are fairly realistic, but I agree that the part limit should go. It is extremely inconvenient, especially in the Spaceplane Hangar: Your craft fits the other definitions, but has too many parts. (Level 2 VAB, Level 1 SPH/Runway)

And those fairings are just for show, really, they would have big issues. But all of my uses for those fairings have been less extreme, looking like normal rocket fairings.