Squadcast Summary (2015-02-07) - The 'Not Very Interesting' Edition

[sjohnson0684]

So wait if construction time is put in will I have to wait X amount of time from designing my rocket/plane/pile-o-parts to launch it, or something else? If it is the first one that, to me, is silly considering I might do multiple tests of something to see what is or is not working. If it is something else I guess I am missing something then. Personally I hate artificial time sinks in games, it is as bad as grinding away for xp in some games because you are too low to move on to the next area. If implemented I hope there is an option to turn it off, or even better still make it off by default but easy enough to find for those that want it on. As for life support I feel something more a long the lines of Snacks would be fitting KSP, it kills of you rep if you leave a Kerbal in space without snack (at least last I looked into the mod that is), this could effect contracts you get, how much pay out of those contracts, and random Kerbals leaving your space program because they are unhappy with you, the last one would suck if you had no one to turn on SAS on you big crafts.

In a nutshell, the way the Kerbal Construction Time mod works is whenever you build something in the VAB/SPH and hit launch, you have the option to simulate it or build it.

The simulation lets you test the ship as many times as you want with an optional configuration to charge funds per simulation, and even allows you to start the simulation on the ground or in orbit of the planets/moons you have been to; it essentially is the same as launching the ship and reverting to the VAB/SPH or launch, but with the optional different starting conditions mentioned and a time limit that you can select.

When you choose to build the space craft, it goes into a construction queue; the time until completion is dependent on the parts you use. When the space craft is completed, then you can launch it for real like normal, still allowing you to revert the launch if you have that enabled.

There is more to the mod that is completely configurable such as roll-out times and launch pad reconditioning, and time restrictions added to the tech unlocks, all of which I would find unnecessary for stock. I feel that some sort of time restriction needs to be implemented for the higher difficulty settings at least to discourage people from chain launching in a short amount of time, to discourage people from maxing the tech tree before the first Duna launch window even opens, and actually give the contract deadlines meaning. I honestly do not see why people are making such a fuss over having to time warp a short amount of time. You design a rocket in the VAB, simulate it if you choose to do so, have it placed in a build queue, and press a button to either time warp to some other thing that requires your attention (such as a correction burn) or until your new rocket is completed, then you launch it. It is not a time sink unless you really believe a few measly seconds of waiting is, which at that point 90% of the game must be one big time sink since you already have to time warp everything else. And again, I stress that this should be a difficulty option and not required for easy mode/sandbox.

As for Snacks!, I think the concept is a great idea for stock life support, and of course, for hard mode there should be death and larger reputation penalties.

Edited February 8, 2015 by sjohnson0684

[tntristan12]

^^^Great post, right there!

For the record, I love KCT, and think it's a fantastic mod that adds much to the game. I hope the devs consider something like it for stock, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think warping time when inside the VAB would accomplish something similar, but I would really like to see the passage of time going on through those big bay doors. It probably wouldn't be too distracting if the time warp multiplier was 10 or 50. Enough to make the sun move perceptibly faster, at least.

I too love the snacks idea. It seems just "kerbal" enough as an abstraction that I could totally buy it not being an essential part of the game at lower difficulty levels. I imagine something like this:

Easy: bring snacks along if you want, but they don't really do anything.

Moderate: running out of snacks results in minor reputation loss and grumbling tummies, but no impact on performance.

Whatever the next level is: Running out of snacks results in a moderate reputation loss, and hungry kerbal lose the will to perform as effectively (so pilots don't hold the same attotudes, engineers can't repair as much, etc) - basically, hungry kerbal revert to a 0 star skill level until they get food in them.

Hard: Hungry kerbals die and you get the full corresponding reputation loss.

I'm seeing some great ideas in here. I hope the devs are paying attention.

[tater]

I'm all for a single resource LS system. Bottom line is that a % is recovered, and a % is lost. The gear to recover is already included in the habs/pods, and the number of kerbal-days LS carried is a measure of both the mass of carried consumables, and the efficiency of the recovery gear. The only thing that I'd add to Snacks! is a power requirement. To utilize kerbal skills, perhaps if you run out of LS (or get within X% of running out) the engineering skill aboard can function as an extension (delivered by adding X days of supplies) using some improvisation (buys a couple days to get a rescue there, perhaps). Another thread proposed morale, and I like that as well (no one goes on a multi-year mission alone).

[Joonatan1998]

I think there could be an alternative to construction time to make time spent on the base matter.

Facility Warp Level.

Basically as each time a builder levels up then time runs one warp setting faster while in the facility.

The base warp level would be the average of the building tiers.

So it the VAB as you get larger heavier parts then we can still put them together lego style and tweak them up but the time that passes still reflects the complexity, so a complex craft in a high tier of the VAB might take 1/2hr play time but a day or two in game time. It also adds value to keeping subassemblies and your own pre-made craft around and organised. Also encourages getting the most out each tier of the building.

To me that would be much better than a roadblock. It adds both value and pressure to the time spent building craft.

That wouldn't really be construction time, that would be desing time, if you allready had a desing you could construct it instantly.

I think having both desing time and construction time would be the best option.

[Superfluous J]

As mentioned before, this update will take a while. Definitely not before the end of February so don't start the HypeTrain yet.

March 1st release confirmed!

[magnemoe]

So wait if construction time is put in will I have to wait X amount of time from designing my rocket/plane/pile-o-parts to launch it, or something else? If it is the first one that, to me, is silly considering I might do multiple tests of something to see what is or is not working. If it is something else I guess I am missing something then. Personally I hate artificial time sinks in games, it is as bad as grinding away for xp in some games because you are too low to move on to the next area. If implemented I hope there is an option to turn it off, or even better still make it off by default but easy enough to find for those that want it on. As for life support I feel something more a long the lines of Snacks would be fitting KSP, it kills of you rep if you leave a Kerbal in space without snack (at least last I looked into the mod that is), this could effect contracts you get, how much pay out of those contracts, and random Kerbals leaving your space program because they are unhappy with you, the last one would suck if you had no one to turn on SAS on you big crafts.

Good point about testing,or the typical fails if you can't revert or save and have to start over, typically shutes opens on ignition.

[KerBlam]

It reminds me of those 'Pay to win' games where you have to wait for something to be built, unless you want to purchase a Kerbodollar and it will complete instantly.

If this is ever implemented into KSP I will abandon ship, lightning quick.

[Parkaboy]

It reminds me of those 'Pay to win' games where you have to wait for something to be built, unless you want to purchase a Kerbodollar and it will complete instantly.

If this is ever implemented into KSP I will abandon ship, lightning quick.

That's hardly the same thing, since KSP would still have time warp.

[KerBlam]

Yeah I get that it's not the same, I didn't mean that KSP would go pay to win. I see why that would seem like that's what I was saying.

I just think it's fine as is. and I just realised I'm talking about the same thing on 2 threads

Just install Kerbal Build Time, problem solved.

[Liowen]

In a nutshell, the way the Kerbal Construction Time mod works is whenever you build something in the VAB/SPH and hit launch, you have the option to simulate it or build it.

The simulation lets you test the ship as many times as you want with an optional configuration to charge funds per simulation, and even allows you to start the simulation on the ground or in orbit of the planets/moons you have been to; it essentially is the same as launching the ship and reverting to the VAB/SPH or launch, but with the optional different starting conditions mentioned and a time limit that you can select.

When you choose to build the space craft, it goes into a construction queue; the time until completion is dependent on the parts you use. When the space craft is completed, then you can launch it for real like normal, still allowing you to revert the launch if you have that enabled.

There is more to the mod that is completely configurable such as roll-out times and launch pad reconditioning, and time restrictions added to the tech unlocks, all of which I would find unnecessary for stock. I feel that some sort of time restriction needs to be implemented for the higher difficulty settings at least to discourage people from chain launching in a short amount of time, to discourage people from maxing the tech tree before the first Duna launch window even opens, and actually give the contract deadlines meaning. I honestly do not see why people are making such a fuss over having to time warp a short amount of time. You design a rocket in the VAB, simulate it if you choose to do so, have it placed in a build queue, and press a button to either time warp to some other thing that requires your attention (such as a correction burn) or until your new rocket is completed, then you launch it. It is not a time sink unless you really believe a few measly seconds of waiting is, which at that point 90% of the game must be one big time sink since you already have to time warp everything else. And again, I stress that this should be a difficulty option and not required for easy mode/sandbox.

As for Snacks!, I think the concept is a great idea for stock life support, and of course, for hard mode there should be death and larger reputation penalties.

It should be a selectable option for any given difficulty setting, not hard limited to a setting. Personally I would never use it though as it just doesn't mesh with play style I like, and time is a big limiting factor so the less twiddling my thumbs watching something I have built being built (See also: redundant is redundant) is even less appealing. What is really confusing about is that they want to add "jump to" options and add this, so SQUAD wants to speed up the game somewhat and slow it down in another sense. If it is hard coded into the game maybe there will be a mod that bypasses it in someway hopefully, or maybe something that can be delete from the game folder like the NASA pack.

[GusTurbo]

Secret insider info: delta V readouts are in.

[Ikaneko]

Secret insider info: delta V readouts are in.

If you're telling the truth...

[tater]

Keeping track of time for construction is exactly nothing like pay to win in any possible way you want to look at it. It can also have virtually zero impact on the player's workflow playing, except that it uses up a resource that is completely ignored right now for everything but spaceflight, TIME.

Have a build in background button, and a warp to rocket completion ("Launch") button. Still one click to launch if you wish. "Revert to launch" does what you'd expect, "Revert to VAB" takes you back to design, before the build is actually started. You can test as you like, and revert to before construction (no time elapsed).

NOTHING changes for the way you want to play, whatsoever. The only difference is time passing, and that only matters for launch windows unless you play with life support (and anyone who does probably wants construction time to matter). Anyone aware of launch windows is already planning ahead, so this would not likely be a problem for them, either (and there's always a new, identical window next year, anyway).

I'd like to see how such a system would possibly be a problem.

[Superfluous J]

I'd like to see how such a system would possibly be a problem.

Any ships in flight with SOI changes between when you click "launch" and when your ship is completed will at BEST have their periapses (periapsises?) changed semirandomly, and at worst they'll be flung from the universe at impossible speeds or just deleted.

There's a reason there's no "jump to" time and there's a reason Kerbal Alarm Clock has a feature to slow down time warp when any ship undertakes a SOI change.

[tater]

Any ships in flight with SOI changes between when you click "launch" and when your ship is completed will at BEST have their periapses (periapsises?) changed semirandomly, and at worst they'll be flung from the universe at impossible speeds or just deleted.

There's a reason there's no "jump to" time and there's a reason Kerbal Alarm Clock has a feature to slow down time warp when any ship undertakes a SOI change.

Excellent point. Can't it do the same thing, and if there is such an event, it drops you out with a message? That's the kind of thing you might miss anyway without KAC.

[sjohnson0684]

Simplest thing would be similar to how KCT does it. When you design a spacecraft in the VAB/SPH and click the launch button, these options could appear:

1) Simulate. This would allow people to launch the spacecraft as many times they want for testing (same as launching and reverting but it cannot be saved to persistent.sfs or quicksaved).

2) Add to Build Queue. This would allow people that like to multitask have several ships being built at the same time and be able to work on other missions during this process to make the best use of their in-game time; when the ship is completed, it'll be moved out of the build queue to where you can launch it, and have options to scrap it or edit it (editing will move it back to the build queue, but only for the modifications). To prevent people from queuing a ton of ships, limit it to 10 or so ships, with reduced build rates in each progressive slot (slot #1: 100%, slot #2: 75%, slot #3: 56%, slot #4: 42%, etc.). Of course the build queue would go hand in hand with the functionality of Kerbal Alarm Clock or a stock version of KAC.

3) Warp to Build Completion and Launch. This would allow people to just skip the above step. Useful for those that do not like to multitask in the game or those that have nothing else going on yet. And like tater said above, if another spacecraft approaches a SOI change, drop out of warp and display a message to the player.

I've said this in previous posts, this could be an optional setting and have it on by default for moderate/hard difficulties.

I have been re-watching Scott Manley's Intersteller Quest series, and it's funny with all the discussion around construction time that last night I got to episode 87 where he briefly talks about how construction time and KAC should be integrated into the game:

Edit: There could be quicksaves specific for your simulation. This could allow the player to go back and test different parts of the simulation, like the launch, orbital insertion and landing on another body, etc. Just a thought.

Edited February 8, 2015 by sjohnson0684

[Liowen]

Just because someone says that X mods should be in the game does not really justify it needing to be in game, unless every person is playing exactly the same as said person. I have played with life support but never felt the need to have a construction time, if I need to warp to a window I would simply go to a ship that I wanted to monitor (or just the KSC) and time warp till I was ready to go. If it is something that can be turned on or off, which it should be if implemented, that would be fine, as long as it is done for all levels of play rather than hard coded to medium or hard (choices are often better than forced difficulty).

[BudgetHedgehog]

periapses (periapsises?)

It's Greek, so periapsides.

Incidentally, I'm really fun at parties

[NecroBones]

Secret insider info: delta V readouts are in.

If you're telling the truth...

Seriously, I hope that's true. I'll probably use Engineer anyway, but I like not being required to use a mod for what is probably the most important measure of what a spacecraft can do.

[Thomas988]

Secret insider info: delta V readouts are in.

Please, PLEASE be telling the truth! I want to go to other planets in my serious-business save so bad!

[GusTurbo]

Seriously, I hope that's true. I'll probably use Engineer anyway, but I like not being required to use a mod for what is probably the most important measure of what a spacecraft can do.

Source:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3688393&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=79#post441205266

[Thomas988]

Source:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3688393&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=79#post441205266

Could you make a screencap of it and show it here? To me that website looks a little...shady.

[GusTurbo]

[Thomas988]

http://i.imgur.com/nn6MZ6l.png

Ha ha! That's awesome!

EDIT: I've given out too much rep for today? Dangit!

[regex]

http://i.imgur.com/nn6MZ6l.png

I feel like they're finally taking their game seriously... Can we get thrust and g0 corrected?

Also really annoying that Reddit, Twitter, and SA are now the "official" source of information about KSP. So I need four accounts and ~tenbux~ to get all the news without relying on other people, fantastic.