Request for a 1.1 Related Subsection

[Red Iron Crown]

Those are broad generalizations, and inaccurate ones, IMO. 

[ZooNamedGames]

42 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Those are broad generalizations, and inaccurate ones, IMO. 

Sadly this is a community and only broad statements can apply. Anything specific is unreliable. You can't make small pointing statements about large groups.

As to the accuracy, it's my opinion based on recent experiences. 

From what I see, users are less accepting of ideas and will shoot them down before considering them, and newer users asking for help with some issue don't want a fix, they want to know the simplest answer to beat the game, not their issue. 

[Red Iron Crown]

More generalizations, I'm afraid, and no more accurate than the last bunch, IMO.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, ZooNamedGames said:

However KSP has lost its shine and has gotten the attention of other users who aren't as nice.

Originally it was only of interest of those who were interested in the game itself. Now newer communities are moving in, those from shooter games or other major steam titles. They don't want to play through KSP's steep learning curve, they want to land on the mun within 20 minutes of play and any issues are the games fault and not their own. They don't want to enjoy KSP's fun in failure, they just want to win.

I hear what you're saying, but I gotta say I'm not seein' it.

Certainly I've seen users that are like you describe-- mentally, I have them pigeonholed in category #3 from my preceding post.  However, people like that have always been around, and I don't particularly find that they're more frequent now than they used to be.

Besides:  I don't think they're much of a problem, or worth worrying about.  Someone who just wants to mash buttons and watch stuff 'splode, and who doesn't have the patience or inclination to climb KSP's steep learning curve, is not going to enjoy KSP much and therefore isn't going to stick around long.  Maybe they'll fire off a couple of "Hey the Mun is impossible how do I get there" or "This game is stoopid" posts, but pretty quickly they'll get frustrated and/or bored and wander off to do something else.  They won't stick around and make hundreds of posts and make a nuisance of themselves on the forum.

<rant>

And here's the really important point, as far as I'm concerned:  When I do see someone make a lazy-looking "Hey the Mun is impossible how do I get there" post... I respond helpfully and politely and give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think that's really important.

Why?

Because:  when you see a newbie's first post and it looks like that... sure, it's possible that they're an impatient shoot-em-up button-masher who will never have any patience or appreciation for the full beauty of KSP (in which case I expect they'll get bored and wander away after a couple of posts).  But we don't know that.

Because maybe-- just maybe-- if someone responds helpfully and informatively, perhaps with an example to show the way... and they try it and gleefully discover that "hey, it worked!"... and then they go on to the next thing and manage to work past it, too (perhaps with another clueless forum post)... they might just discover that they're hooked.  And gradually discover that they're as delighted with KSP as you or I.  And then everybody wins, because then the forums get a new, enthusiastic member; fresh blood to liven us up.  Someone who could potentially be a positive, contributing member of the community for a long time to come.

I'm not saying it's likely to turn out that way.  In my experience, most of the time it doesn't.  But if even one such clueless newbie eventually turns out to be such a diamond in the rough, I'm happy to wade through a few dozen who don't.  Because those few dozen will only make one or two posts each (which are easily and quickly addressed), whereas a fully-engaged forum member may stick around for years and contribute hundreds or even thousands of posts.

And furthermore:  Lest I seem dismissive by using a term like "shoot-em-up button masher":  It's also really important to bear in mind that not everybody enjoys the game the same way.  If someone just likes watching stuff 'splode and doesn't want to learn more than that... that's completely up to them and is just as valid a way of enjoying the game as your own.  So I hope we can avoid generalizing or looking down on other people just because they have a play style that doesn't necessarily match our own.

(For example, I'm cheerfully tolerant of the folks who fly spaceplanes even though they're doing KSP wrong because planes are dumb and real KSP players fly rockets.)  (Just to be clear, that was a joke to make my point, no actual criticism of spaceplane flyers is intended.)

So IMHO, being as welcoming as possible to everyone is worth the investment.  As long as someone's not downright rude or abusive... let's give 'em the benefit of the doubt, shall we?  It's part of what makes the KSP community such a great place to live in.

</rant>

[ZooNamedGames]

22 minutes ago, Snark said:

I hear what you're saying, but I gotta say I'm not seein' it.

Certainly I've seen users that are like you describe-- mentally, I have them pigeonholed in category #3 from my preceding post.  However, people like that have always been around, and I don't particularly find that they're more frequent now than they used to be.

Besides:  I don't think they're much of a problem, or worth worrying about.  Someone who just wants to mash buttons and watch stuff 'splode, and who doesn't have the patience or inclination to climb KSP's steep learning curve, is not going to enjoy KSP much and therefore isn't going to stick around long.  Maybe they'll fire off a couple of "Hey the Mun is impossible how do I get there" or "This game is stoopid" posts, but pretty quickly they'll get frustrated and/or bored and wander off to do something else.  They won't stick around and make hundreds of posts and make a nuisance of themselves on the forum.

<rant>

And here's the really important point, as far as I'm concerned:  When I do see someone make a lazy-looking "Hey the Mun is impossible how do I get there" post... I respond helpfully and politely and give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think that's really important.

Why?

Because:  when you see a newbie's first post and it looks like that... sure, it's possible that they're an impatient shoot-em-up button-masher who will never have any patience or appreciation for the full beauty of KSP (in which case I expect they'll get bored and wander away after a couple of posts).  But we don't know that.

Because maybe-- just maybe-- if someone responds helpfully and informatively, perhaps with an example to show the way... and they try it and gleefully discover that "hey, it worked!"... and then they go on to the next thing and manage to work past it, too (perhaps with another clueless forum post)... they might just discover that they're hooked.  And gradually discover that they're as delighted with KSP as you or I.  And then everybody wins, because then the forums get a new, enthusiastic member; fresh blood to liven us up.  Someone who could potentially be a positive, contributing member of the community for a long time to come.

I'm not saying it's likely to turn out that way.  In my experience, most of the time it doesn't.  But if even one such clueless newbie eventually turns out to be such a diamond in the rough, I'm happy to wade through a few dozen who don't.  Because those few dozen will only make one or two posts each (which are easily and quickly addressed), whereas a fully-engaged forum member may stick around for years and contribute hundreds or even thousands of posts.

And furthermore:  Lest I seem dismissive by using a term like "shoot-em-up button masher":  It's also really important to bear in mind that not everybody enjoys the game the same way.  If someone just likes watching stuff 'splode and doesn't want to learn more than that... that's completely up to them and is just as valid a way of enjoying the game as your own.  So I hope we can avoid generalizing or looking down on other people just because they have a play style that doesn't necessarily match our own.

(For example, I'm cheerfully tolerant of the folks who fly spaceplanes even though they're doing KSP wrong because planes are dumb and real KSP players fly rockets.)  (Just to be clear, that was a joke to make my point, no actual criticism of spaceplane flyers is intended.)

So IMHO, being as welcoming as possible to everyone is worth the investment.  As long as someone's not downright rude or abusive... let's give 'em the benefit of the doubt, shall we?  It's part of what makes the KSP community such a great place to live in.

</rant>

I still see it as going negative and I speak for others when I say that. 

I try to remain positive in my posts as always.

[Red Iron Crown]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I speak for others when I say that.

For whom do you speak?

[Snark]

15 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I still see it as going negative

Well, sure, of course each of us forms their own impressions.  Reasonable folks can disagree with each other.

16 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

and I speak for others when I say that

...but I'd suggest, please be careful about making statements like that.  The only person that anyone can really "speak for" is oneself.

20 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I try to remain positive in my posts as always.

Excellent, glad to hear it! 

Just bear in mind that one's posts include not just direct responses to users... but anything that's publicly posted in a discussion thread, including this one (for example, generalizations about groups of players, such as "new people in the forums these days.")  So positivity / negativity applies there, too.

[ZooNamedGames]

24 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

For whom do you speak?

A group you would demean even if I mentioned them.

9 minutes ago, Snark said:

...but I'd suggest, please be careful about making statements like that.  The only person that anyone can really "speak for" is oneself.

Just bear in mind that one's posts include not just direct responses to users... but anything that's publicly posted in a discussion thread, including this one (for example, generalizations about groups of players, such as "new people in the forums these days.")  So positivity / negativity applies there, too.

They wouldn't care, I know them.

I'll become more positivity once I see it.

[Red Iron Crown]

16 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

A group you would demean even if I mentioned them.

I am not in the habit of demeaning people, thank you. And if it is the group I suspect it is I am unaware of anyone being elected as spokesperson.

16 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I'll become more positivity once I see it.

Doesn't that make you part of the problem you are perceiving?

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, Red Iron Crown said:

I am not in the habit of demeaning people, thank you. And if it is the group I suspect it is I am unaware of anyone being elected as spokesperson.

Doesn't that make you part of the problem you are perceiving?

I doubt my group could reasonably elect someone without debating over it.

Ill see to fixing my problems once I see positivity.

[Randazzo]

I've only been around for slightly less than a year and a half, but I don't think things have really gotten any worse in that time. There are certainly more people asking beginners questions, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. There have always been a few names that go out of their way to talk down to others when newbie questions are asked. That's always been a pet peeve of mine, and has probably almost gotten me in trouble a few times. In the end, being mean to the jerks just makes it worse. All you can really do is try to be a positive counterforce in those particular threads.

As far as the CKAN nastiness, that was bubbling up for a long time. What we saw was the result of much pent-up frustration that was ignored for too long. The important thing is that an amicable resolution was reached instead of total meltdown. In terms of internet community, this is still one of the best and least childish, but it certainly isn't perfect. And just like anything else, flaws will become more apparent over time. The real challenge is continuing to see the beauty even when you realize it's not perfect.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, Randazzo said:

The important thing is that an amicable resolution was reached instead of total meltdown.

In terms of internet community, this is still one of the best and least childish, but it certainly isn't perfect. And just like anything else, flaws will become more apparent over time. The real challenge is continuing to see the beauty even when you realize it's not perfect.

I've seen a melt down on the forum! It's not pretty.

It is one of the better ones and it's that care that drives me to want to see it be better.

[Red Iron Crown]

37 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I doubt my group could reasonably elect someone without debating over it.

Perhaps you shouldn't claim to speak for them then, as you have no mandate to do so.

37 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Ill see to fixing my problems once I see positivity.

It's already there. If you go looking for negativity you are sure to find it. Similarly if you go looking for positivity you are sure to find it.

"I'll start being positive when everyone else does" is an untenable position. Why should someone else make the first move to fix your perceived problem? If you want more positivity around here (an admirable goal) the best way by far to do it is by being positive yourself.

[ZooNamedGames]

24 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Perhaps you shouldn't claim to speak for them then, as you have no mandate to do so.

It's already there. If you go looking for negativity you are sure to find it. Similarly if you go looking for positivity you are sure to find it.

"I'll start being positive when everyone else does" is an untenable position. Why should someone else make the first move to fix your perceived problem? If you want more positivity around here (an admirable goal) the best way by far to do it is by being positive yourself.

Well if they have a problem they can speak up for themselves as their all adults.

I am still responding to other threads positivity, I just feel there's a loss of positivity.

Edited July 6, 2016 by ZooNamedGames

[Deddly]

I've followed this discussion with some interest, and I think I can see both sides of the discussion here. @ZooNamedGames has noticed an increase in negativity, wheras a lot of others say they haven't noticed any perceivable increase. Could it be that the forum has simply become busier, and therefore there are more posts that are both negative and positive? Or perhaps you, @ZooNamedGames, have matured since you arrived from being a new player asking questions and receiving helpful replies when you first arrived here into a more experienced user who has become very active on the forum. I would imagine that your first experience would be a pleasant surprise due to the level of maturity and mutual respect you found when compared with other internet communities. As you have gotten used to things and formed yourself a place here, though, the negative posts perhaps stick out more than they used to.

Well done for being positive whenever you can. Keep it up - I'm sure it's making a difference.

[Vanamonde]

There are outbreaks of contentiousness on the forum from time to time, and then they die down again. It's a routine thing, to the point that there is usually one after each new game version comes out. But the current state of the forum is actually rather mild; we are receiving few reports from members and giving out even fewer warns. 

So rather than reorganizing the forum, how about simply skipping the argumentative threads? You can also set certain forum members to an "ignore" status, after which you no longer see their posts.