Astronaut competition

[totalitor]

What do you think?

http://spacenews.com/finnish-company-raising-funds-for-astronaut-training-competition/

 

[Elthy]

Seems like a fraud just like mars one. They developed a mobile game and they may even be able to launch a winner on a suborbital flight (there is still no such thing commercialy available). But getting people to orbit is just a bit more exensive, its not the kind of money you get with ads on youtuve videos. They are selling naive dreams, just like mars one.

And honestly i dont want astronauts being recruited on their score in a mobile game. This would be a punch in the face to scientists and engineers dedicating their whole lifes to that goal, also imagine if you food comes from a farm led by someone who is good at farmville...

[p1t1o]

Pure marketing.

And quite succesful too, 2million EUR raised in a matter of weeks. 

Now I dont know much about how much it costs to train an astronaut but I can tell you it takes ~ 2million GBP to train an RAF pilot (which takes 2 years).

*re-thinks*

Oh right, all you win is a seat on a sub-orb flight? So "technically" an astronaut...but not *reallllly*.

All power to them, have at it. Its not like they are getting a job at NASA.

Pure marketing.

[Tullius]

2 minutes ago, Elthy said:

Seems like a fraud just like mars one. They developed a mobile game and they may even be able to launch a winner on a suborbital flight (there is still no such thing commercialy available). But getting people to orbit is just a bit more exensive, its not the kind of money you get with ads on youtuve videos. They are selling naive dreams, just like mars one.

And honestly i dont want astronauts being recruited on their score in a mobile game. This would be a punch in the face to scientists and engineers dedicating their whole lifes to that goal, also imagine if you food comes from a farm led by someone who is good at farmville...

The final selection will be based on the training camps. So it is not just being good at a mobile game, as the final selection will still depend on the usual astronaut selection process.

The fact that most astronauts are either jet pilots, scientists or engineers is mostly due to them already bringing their knowledge to the space program. Jet pilots, especially if they are test pilots, have knowlegde in flying difficult to fly aircraft, i.e. they are already used to similar situations as flying a space craft (and absolutely required for a Space Shuttle). On the other hand scientists and engineers are brought to the ISS to do what they know best: do science.

Also it is not like there is no precedent: space tourists and NASA's "Teacher in Space"-program all send people to space that had no special qualification for becoming an astronaut, besides being physically and mentally fit enough.

[Elthy]

57 minutes ago, Tullius said:

The final selection will be based on the training camps. So it is not just being good at a mobile game, as the final selection will still depend on the usual astronaut selection process.

The fact that most astronauts are either jet pilots, scientists or engineers is mostly due to them already bringing their knowledge to the space program. Jet pilots, especially if they are test pilots, have knowlegde in flying difficult to fly aircraft, i.e. they are already used to similar situations as flying a space craft (and absolutely required for a Space Shuttle). On the other hand scientists and engineers are brought to the ISS to do what they know best: do science.

Also it is not like there is no precedent: space tourists and NASA's "Teacher in Space"-program all send people to space that had no special qualification for becoming an astronaut, besides being physically and mentally fit enough.

The number of astronauts is a bit small for us not select the best of the best. E.g. Germany had 12 presidents (after the war), but only 11 astronauts (who actually went to space)...

[kerbiloid]

A backseat navigator

[Green Baron]

1 hour ago, Elthy said:

The number of astronauts is a bit small for us not select the best of the best. E.g. Germany had 12 presidents (after the war), but only 11 astronauts (who actually went to space)...

I only count 11 Präsis ...

[Elthy]

6 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

I only count 11 Präsis ...

Oh right, Steinmeier isnt sworn in yet, so not legaly the president.

[tater]

It's not nearly the scam that Mars One is, and it's not an insult to anyone.

The people will be whittled down to ONE person who gets a suborbital spaceflight, and the other finalists it says get a 2 week space camp.

Meanwhile, anyone with with whatever Blue Origin will charge can simply pony up the money and might well be on the same flight as this person, and the BO customer will have precisely the training they are given by BO, and nothing more.

If they had a private sweepstakes for a single BO flight, would it be any different than what they are currently offering? What if it was a sweepstakes that said it would pull the top X people, would take the first, unless that person was medically not safe to fly, then it goes to the second, and so forth?

Dunno, seems like a way for people without a hundred grand (or 2) to have a non-zero chance at winning a BO flight, even if it's silly.

Edited February 21, 2017 by tater

[Tex_NL]

Reading the article they've already raised approximately 4 million from the 6 million goal. The "winner" will go on a "commercial suborbital flight".

The only commercial company currently actually working on suborbital flights is Virgin with SpaceShipOne. Tickets for SpaceShipOne are going to cost $250.000 each. They plan to raise 24 times more than they spend. Even with overhead that's an enormous profit margin.

I will not call it a scam just yet. But it does smell VERY fishy.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Tex_NL

[tater]

12 minutes ago, Tex_NL said:

Reading the article they've already raised approximately 4 million from the 6 million goal. The "winner" will go on a "commercial suborbital flight".

The only commercial company currently actually working on suborbital flights is Virgin with SpaceShipOne. Tickets for SpaceShipOne are going to cost $250.000 each. They plan to raise 24 times more than they spend. Even with overhead that's an enormous profit margin.

I will not call it a scam just yet. But it does smell VERY fishy.

Yeah, I suppose that I should have defined scam better. If by "scam" it means that no one would ever go on a flight, then Mars One is such a scam. I was using a definition where 100% of the people who pay in end up losing. Given the raised funds, they could reasonably send quite a few people, and still profit. It's basically a private lottery. The guys running the lottery profit, and one of the many people buying a low-cost lottery ticket profits, and the rest lose.

[Tex_NL]

Yes. A lottery is a very nice comparison. And for the lucky few finalist it will become a combination of a quiz and an athletic competition.
But as with all lotteries the only true winners are those that organize it.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Tex_NL

[p1t1o]

4 hours ago, Tullius said:

NASA's "Teacher in Space"-program all send people to space that had no special qualification for becoming an astronaut, besides being physically and mentally fit enough.

Which should highlight why spaceflight should not be taken lightly.

I cant think of a way to take something *more* likely than to make a mobile phone app about it and have some spurious competition.

I doubt they will go through with it fully, even just to avoid the inevitable "I won the game but I weigh 49stone so failed boot camp on the first day but I deserve stuff!" lawsuit.

[Tex_NL]

4 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I doubt they will go through with it fully, even just to avoid the inevitable "I won the game but I weigh 49stone so failed boot camp on the first day but I deserve stuff!" lawsuit.

Or even worse. Picture the following, not that unrealistic, scenario.

So you've won the competition. You've aced the mental and physical competition. Age, weight, health. You meet all requirements. You are the ideal candidate to make the suborbital grand prize.
But due to technical difficulties the flight is declared unsafe. Your flight has to be delayed for a few years. You gain a few years and more than a few pounds. Your physical condition starts to deteriorate. And to boot develop a minor heart condition and type 2 diabetes.
In your current condition there is no way you'll be cleared to fly. But no one can deny YOU won the competition. And the delay is not your fault. Are you still entitled to fly?

[tater]

BO is supposed to be flying human (BO employee) test missions this year, and paid customers in '18 I think. I think it's likely gonna be pretty safe, indeed, safer than Virgin ever will be, IMO.

[Mikki]

...Finnish people have no need to scam others. But i can see clearly a slight finnish crazyness in this thing.
 

[tater]

9 minutes ago, Mikki said:

...Finnish people have no need to scam others. But i can see clearly a slight finnish crazyness in this thing.
 

 

They've already raised 4M$. They will train 12 people for a suborbital hop whose price includes all required training already. 

A flight might cost as much as $250,000. 12 people training for 12 weeks (for a flight that requires no training) would run, what? $100/hour (divided by the 12 people)? $200/hr? In the latter case, that's $1,152,000 assuming they train 40 hours a week for 12 weeks---for a mission that requires a few hours of training specific to the launch provider, and already comes with the ride cost.

So assuming they quit now, they buy the ride, train 12 people, and come out almost 4M$ in the black. Seems like a scam, unless they announce that because of high demand, they'll now be buying 12 rides for the 12 people. That would still give them a slight profit, BTW (a few hundred grand). I say scam now since any such commercial ride comes with the required training already.

 

[Tex_NL]

32 minutes ago, Mikki said:

...Finnish people have no need to scam others.

What kind of bogus bias is this?
ANY group of people will contain a few parasites that will prey upon the gullible when given the chance. There is NO nation on earth that does not contain at least a few scammers.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Tex_NL

[Mikki]

3 minutes ago, Tex_NL said:

What kind of bogus bias is this?
ANY group of people will contain a few parasites that will prey upon the gullible when given the chance. There is NO nation on earth that does not contain at least a few scammers.

Errm... we have jails, yes. But corruption is pretty low, and education pretty good. Our girls are nice too 

[Tex_NL]

@Mikki
I hope you do realize what you said was incredibly racist. Not negatively racist, but racist nonetheless.

[tater]

That the cost of a single commercial, suborbital spaceflight seat is currently estimated to be substantially lower than the current resources of this Finnish guy's project, it appears that at least one Finn has a need to scam others---actually, that's not fair. Perhaps he has no need to scam others, just the desire to  .

EDIT:

1. Not needing the money, but scamming anyway sort of makes it worse.

2. I entirely understand the idea of a company selling lottery tickets to provide space rides. Skewness is a thing, and most of us could not afford to blow the amount required to buy a house, or send kids to college on a 15 minute joy ride, but we might spend even a few hundred dollars with a chance at a life-altering experience, particularly if we feel our own skill is somehow involved. So I'm fine with that. Selling it as a service (training, etc) might be legally required to avoid laws that prohibit private lotteries (anyone here a lawyer?). Still, unless the training is vastly more expensive than most of us could imagine (maybe it includes hours of flights in jet aircraft, or even a private "vomit comet"), it seems like they'd need to replicate this enough times that the profit for the founder is less than we might assume from a quick look at the numbers.

Edited February 21, 2017 by tater