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hobbez

aerodynamics are unbearable...

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@moderators : is it possible to merge all those "I don't like the new aero" threads in one single topic ?

And the same should do with the "stop whining" threads which looks more insulting than helping...

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SMR8uRa.png

It's tall. It's top heavy. It carries no reaction wheels and RCS. And yet i can get this rocket to orbit without flipping and with plenty of dV left in upper stage. It's not even hard, or particularly exciting. Aerodynamic model is working, it's your engineering and\or piloting skills that are lacking apparently. So quit yer whinin' and start learnin' :D

And yes - i'm tired of threads like this one too.

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Well ... it's a game, not a simulator. Planets are small, air is dense (more or less depending on personal opinions), contraptions fly (more or less depending on personal skills and abilities). When i'm done playing i go back to reality.

After all, i come in from the moon at 3km/s, not 11km/s which would be "realistic".

Personally i found the 1.0 more thrilling in terms of "pay attention when you reenter or use f5/f9" than the 1.0.2 "just throw it there i'll pick up later". Kerbalish style.

After trying out what happens i can adapt my "style" of construction and flying, it's the kerbalish way and no big deal ... and i see no reason to heat up more than the capsule on reentry :-)

Edited by kemde

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When did KSP get full of whiners???

I used to love just reading the forum with all the wannabe space engineers and their hillarious attempts of even getting anything of the pad, but now its hijacked by whiners.

Since I'm travelling I cant enjoy the new KSP but the little I have checked is awsome! :-D *grabs anti whiner spray*

Edited by Bomaye

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I don't think you understand. The new aero is utterly and completely crap in that it really doesn't meet the quality standards I've come to expect from Squad. It's totally unrealistic. You can come straight in from the Mun for a re-entry, without a heatshield, and nothing will break. Shuttle-style aircraft with small wings land so slowly you could almost catch them with a scooter (I'm talking about the motorized kind). You can pull a bazillion gees at Mach 4 and, again, no structural failures whatsoever.

E: That is not to say that the 0.90 aero is better, which is isn't, but seriously, Squad? You really need to tweak things a bit. More re-entry heating, less lift, stronger aerodynamic stresses.

I agree that the new aero is by no means perfect, and I expect that further tweaks will happen. As for the realism, Squad announced very early on that a fully realistic aerodynamics system is not going to happen in stock, but as far as I understand they did make it possible for modders to disable stock aero so stuff like FAR can implement more realistic models easier. Constructive criticism is not what I am agitating against, if people have suggestions or grievances it's nice to read and I'm pretty sure Squad also reads those. Just ranting on about the new aero being "unbearable" or "not fun" without pointing out particular issues or problems isn't helping anyone and the amount of threads made just complaining about nothing other than "my stuff doesn't fly like it used to" is getting very tiresome. Especially since an overwhelming majority of people seem to agree that whatever we have now is a lot better than what we had in stock before.

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Agreed. It's a game. The issue is that themodel has changed, and most of us have to relearn how to do it. I also have much trouble geting stuff into orbit. I retry again and again. I change some stuff, sometimes it works, sometime it doesn't. It's harder than it used to be in 0.9. Some tweaks have to be made, and Squad will surely do them. Let them rest a little after all the work they've put in the game.

Kerbal is not the game each of us want. It's not possible. It's Squad's game which take into consideration some of what we say or ask.

Sure there are some strange things with aero. They will be fixed.

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So, given the nature of this game, i assumed that posters of this forum would be more mature than the likes of blizzard forums, but i may have been mistaken.

They usually are. But posting your opinion as fact doesnt' generally elicit a very positive response :).

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I don't think you understand. The new aero is utterly and completely crap in that it really doesn't meet the quality standards I've come to expect from Squad. It's totally unrealistic. You can come straight in from the Mun for a re-entry, without a heatshield, and nothing will break. Shuttle-style aircraft with small wings land so slowly you could almost catch them with a scooter (I'm talking about the motorized kind). You can pull a bazillion gees at Mach 4 and, again, no structural failures whatsoever.

Due to the ludicrously small size of Kerbin, being able to make a Munar return without a heatshield quite realistic from a physics perspective. Things like this are why RSS was created in the first place. I'm not sure about the shuttle, but I can only assume it's much, much lighter than an actual shuttle.

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Due to the ludicrously small size of Kerbin, being able to make a Munar return without a heatshield quite realistic from a physics perspective. Things like this are why RSS was created in the first place. I'm not sure about the shuttle, but I can only assume it's much, much lighter than an actual shuttle.

It may be realistic based on the size of kerbin compared to real life but the size is there for gameplay reasons and for gameplay reasons the physics should at least try to scale to that size so that it still feels like earth. I believe the gravity of Kerbin is still 9.8m/s even though the planet is much smaller. A return from the mun without a heat shield should not be possible for gameplay reasons. Other wise you might as well just turn off reentry heating if it is going to have no effect anyway.

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I think the real problem with reentry heat is that the heat tolerance of parts is way too high. Who needs heat shielding, when almost any part can withstand 2000 °C?

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The reentry heating system was specifically tuned down in order not to intimidate newbies. In reality, every reentry is a near-death experience, but a lot of players would not find that fun.

If you want it hotter, crank up the difficulty sliders. Personally, I'm quite enjoying the heat system; it's enough to make you think about it, but not so much that you have to obsess over it. And I've managed to burn a few heatshields close to the bone (as well as detonating countless unwisely placed batteries and solar panels). Heating is now the #1 issue during spaceplane ascents, too.

nm4VCPE.jpg

Perhaps you should try some interplanetary aerobraking?

Edited by Wanderfound

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argh..i can't stand the new physics in 1.02. I didn't have a chance to play with 1.00, but my friend whom i'm playing with right now claims that they've changed since 1.00. Is it so? I know we've taken liberties in the past with ship design pre-1.00, but i'm not really enjoying the game in this state.

Why not? Finally we get to do gravity turns instead of yanking an impossible and completely ridiculous 40 degree turn at 10 km, finally our planes break if we try to fly maneuvers that look like they should break them, finally aerodynamic forces keep our craft stable and we don't need to use SAS for everything, finally building a rocket that looks like a rocket pays off. Furthermore, finally our tanks don't change their aerodynamic drag when we use fuel, cargo bays finally have a purpose, and last but not least, finally it's reasonably easy to build planes. I managed to build (space-)planes in broth-o-sphere non-aero, but it was always a huge pain. Now, with the improved dependence of lift on angle of attack, it's much, much easier to get planes into the air, and piloting finally doesn't feel like sitting on a cactus.

Of course this means one needs some time to learn how to build rockets and planes that actually look like they would fly in real life (as opposed to 0.90 and before, where even a hot dog with wings would fly), and one cannot use wings as hull parts any more (as SQUAD decided to use a different aero model for wings), but look on the bright side: Now we have engines that are actually balanced for realistic aerodynamics FAR is no longer the "I win" mod it was before, where it greatly reduced the dV requirements compared to stock broth-o-sphere.

To be fair, stock aero isn't perfect, but for those who aren't satisfied with it, there are a lot of settings available either by tweaking the config files, or via the debug menu. It's possible to control how deadly a reentry is by using the difficulty settings (and don't complain that reentry is too easy, unless you have set this slider to maximum).

Anyhow, if all of this still isn't good enough, there'll be a FAR release for 1.0.2 soon, and DRE should be updated for 1.0.2 at some point as well (and will be quite a bit more deadly than stock).

Long story short: A really, really big thank you to the team at SQUAD for implementing an aerodynamic model that deserves the name. Please, please, please keep up the new system. Tweak it here and there, but, by the love of Jool, don't bring back the broth-o-sphere.

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Not permanent I believe.

The last tab, with its save and load buttons, belies this answer. :P

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The new aero is what the aero alway should have been.

The previous aero model was totally unrealistic: drag was calculated using the mass of the part(!).

I prefer, in several order of magnitude, the new model.

Edited by goldenpeach

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The reentry heating system was specifically tuned down in order not to intimidate newbies. In reality, every reentry is a near-death experience, but a lot of players would not find that fun.

If you want it hotter, crank up the difficulty sliders. Personally, I'm quite enjoying the heat system; it's enough to make you think about it, but not so much that you have to obsess over it. And I've managed to burn a few heatshields close to the bone (as well as detonating countless unwisely placed batteries and solar panels). Heating is now the #1 issue during spaceplane ascents, too.

http://i.imgur.com/nm4VCPE.jpg

Perhaps you should try some interplanetary aerobraking?

Is that really true though? It seems like the re-entry heat has gotten so mild that you practically don't need heat shields and only the little bits like batteries on the outside of your pod are in any danger. I found the system challenging but manageable in 1.0. The heat shields being physicsless generated the majority of the complaints, in my view. Once you fixed that, you could recover some decently complex return stages (capsule, inline command pod, maybe a science jr or service bay) if you designed it well. I agree that it would probably have been best for the game to tone down 1.0's re-entry heat but in 1.0.2 the pendulum has swung too far.

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I'd rather scale up the Kerbol system 6.4x and rebalance the rockets appropriately for that scale than make the physics for reentry heating less realistic just to add challenge.

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Oh good. I was starting to worry that there weren't enough threads rewording the same arguments.

whew! and i was beginning to wonder what happened to the Forum Police 'cuz, you know, the mods can't handle it so we need heroes like you.

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Oh good. I was starting to worry that there weren't enough threads rewording the same arguments.

I was starting to worry we didn't have enough, lords knows we need 10 of these per day.

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In my opinion there should be special parts for hypersonic flight. I'd like to try to build some kind of scramjet-like vehicle to reach mach10, but as of yet the game falls apart past 1300m/s... which granted my current top-speed jet is faster than the SR-71... but. I'd like to be able to do more.

I know they don't want people to just do something like (if they added high temperature wings) have giant ships covered in hightemp wings land anywhere anyhow.

So maybe I'll have to settle for lousy mach4 for now. I just wish the game would stay stable as my wings and parts superheat.

*** to be clear I'm talking about atmospheric flight.

I've always liked experimenting with jets in this game, it seems to be a majorly under-served part of the game. After all, how many easter eggs are there in space? Kerbin has like...3 you can visit.

Edited by Znath

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I found the system challenging but manageable in 1.0.

Uh, there was no challenge at all in 1.0, you didn't every need to do anything except open a parachute since they where invincible and instantly slowed you down at any speed or altitude. Re-entry IS to easy in 1.02 but its much much harder than it was in 1.0 which was the easiest re-entry model we ever had. At least in the old version parachutes broke or ripped off at high speeds.

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