Shpaget Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Well, not really, but I had to get you to click, right?.Anyway, I was watching some conspiracy stuff, sky demons, concave/flat Earth and similar woo, which got me thinking how come none of them did a simple laser test over a body of water.Some quick calculation later, I figured out that the curvature of Earth should be quite visible on a day with good visibility, since to see a point on the surface of water 10 km away, you need to be about 8 m above surface. Good enough.Some googling later, I found . The relevant part starts at 10:00.Long story short, that guy claims the laser was visible about 6 km away, when both laser and the observer were at almost sea level. Both mine and his calculation agree that either one (laser or the observer) should be about 3 m above the surface.So, my question is following. Assuming he's not lying about the laser being visible and laser and observer being at sea level, what explanation would account for the visibility of the laser?I've seen a documentary about the sinking of Titanic, where they demonstrate how the visible horizon can be much further than the straight line would allow when certain meteorological conditions occur, namely strong temperature gradient of the air above the surface where the cold air sits on the surface with warmer on top of it. However, this guy has just done the experiment and is located in California. I don't live there, so I'm not talking from experience, but weather archives list local temperature between 15 and 25°C during the days of the filming. Also, that scenario would require either laser or the observe to be above the cold air. In any case that explanation does not fit.Reflection from the surface of the water would also not account for it, since the geometry of the round Earth does not allow it.If you were debating this guy, what would you offer as an explanation, or would you reject his claim that the laser was visible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camacha Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 If you were debating this guyExperience tells us it has no use. You are not going to convince these types of people, no matter how much you pile on the evidence. You would better divert your energy elsewhere to where it can be put to good use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brethern Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 It's an optical illusion I don't know what causes it the whole false horizon thing is well known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnok Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 If you are looking for simplest way to see Earth shape As for lasers and water IMO you have to look at Moon position too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charzy Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 As for lasers and water IMO you have to look at Moon position too.Why is that your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robotengineer Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Why is that your opinion?Tides... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peadar1987 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Atmospheric refraction is a very common phenomenon that has been understood since the late 1800s, and happens with only a few fractions of a degree of temperature gradient.Flat Earthers are muppets. Simple as that, it's not worth debating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charzy Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Tides...Sounds like a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I used to love going to the Flat Earth Society's web page to read and laugh at all the reasons they come up with for the earth being flat. Words like "bendy light" where used a lot whenever they couldn't come up with a reasonable explanation of why you can visibly see the curvature of the earth. Oh yeah and every picture EVER created that proves the earth is round is photoshopped. And every government in the world is behind the conspiracy that trys to convince people the earth is round. My one and only post there was to ask what the governments of the world could possibly gain by this conspiracy. The answer; "If we knew what the conspiracy was, it wouldn't be much of a conspiracy".After injuring myself by slamming my head on the desk several times I stopped going there. So yeah, like others said save your time and energy because no matter how overwhelming the proof is they will find a way to ignore it.EDIT: Although I might read it again later to see if they still believe the Sun is only 3 thousand miles away. Edited July 1, 2015 by Fenris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KerikBalm Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 reflection off the water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Hobo Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Considering their measurements are "about knee level" and "someone crouching down" I doubt very much that they did the maths correctly. These are people who are trying to disprove centuries of observation and experimentation with a laser pen and someone standing on a beach. And getting paid for it. There is nothing you could possibly say to convince them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shpaget Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Oh, I know there's no debating him and people like him. He sees the Sun through some light clouds and claims that "the clouds are clearly behind the Sun".It is me who would like to understand the phenomenon (assuming he really was able to see the laser). Unfortunately I live on the continent and the largest straight body of water I have available nearby is 2 km long which is not enough for a good test. So I can't do a proper photographic test until I get to the seaside in a month or two.@Robotengineer You would say that the tides locally leveled out the surface of water enough that much (3m over a few km)? That sounds too much.Edit:Eratosthenes approach to calculating the size and shape of the Earth fails in the eyes of flat earthers since they believe the Sun is a spot light that hovers a few thousand kms above the surface of the flat Earth. Such a model, with appropriate dimensions, would closely simulate the effects of a distant Sun and round Earth on the shadows of towers. Edited July 1, 2015 by Shpaget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dispatcher Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I used to love going to the Flat Earth Society's web page to read and laugh at all the reasons they come up with for the earth being flat. ..."I've been under the impression that the Society is more a social thing rather than people actually believing such things. I've never known anyone who has indicated to me that the Earth is flat, or that they know someone who thinks such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LN400 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I've been under the impression that the Society is more a social thing rather than people actually believing such things. I've never known anyone who has indicated to me that the Earth is flat, or that they know someone who thinks such.They are around alright. Sure there are those who aren't seriously saying the earth is flat but there are some who are very clear, not to mention aggressively clear, about it. Not that many of them I assume but still. I for one have learned it's of no use trying to explain. We're not dealing with reason here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YNM Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Yeah, none of them ever try to view angle of dip WITH refraction as real.Angle of dip is the angle between your supposed horizon (exactly 90 degrees away from zenith - that's a definition) and the observed horizon, assuming no significant surface features around. Even for a 1m height, the angle of dip is around 2 arcmin, which equals a distance to observed horizon of 3.5 km, using Earth's polar radius (6356.8 km). Now, consider that the refraction of a setting star is around 50 arcsec (close to 1 arcmin) such as that when you see a star setting they actually already set a few seconds ago, guess what - you can see as far as 5 km ! There're other factors such as tides (which makes, least, the sea level at your site being farther / nearer to Earth's center) and the recipient is also standing >1m above the sea level. Additional refraction might helps as it's pretty hard to model refraction near the horizon.They're plain stupid, that is... Just challenge them to send a flashlight from Oban to New York or somesuch. Or from San Francisco to Tokyo... Edited July 2, 2015 by YNM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peadar1987 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I've been under the impression that the Society is more a social thing rather than people actually believing such things. I've never known anyone who has indicated to me that the Earth is flat, or that they know someone who thinks such.A quick search on youtube will indicate otherwise (and clog your suggested videos with all manner of irritating tinfoil-hattery).I once saw an interview with a high-profile flat-earther names Eric something-or-other. He was on holiday in Thailand when he gave it, which means he must have flown in a plane, using "round earth" navigation, piloted by one of the tens of millions of conspirators. The mind boggles sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerbart Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Atmospheric refraction is a very common phenomenon that has been understood since the late 1800s, and happens with only a few fractions of a degree of temperature gradientThere's no such thing as atmospheric refraction. "Scientists" invented this "theory" to come up with an alternate explanation for this "light over the horizon" experiment that was dispelling the myth of a round earth.You're right, it's not worth debating them. You're using science to convince people who have abandoned science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LN400 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I might provoke a few reactions but I'm thinkin the main reason we're seeing all sorts of bizarre "theories" that the human mind is prone to go at least partially psychotic while we all to often fail to realize or accept that. Some ideas are more outrageous than others but some of these wild ideas are not only accepted by many or just plain socially accepted but entire civilisations have these outlandish ideas as their cornerstones.Flat earth, hollow earth, angels, demons, moon is not real, Queen Eliabeth is a gecko, talking animals, aliens, I'm wondering if it's perhaps that we just can't help ourselves. We're humans with human brains and that brain is not perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I've been under the impression that the Society is more a social thing rather than people actually believing such things. I've never known anyone who has indicated to me that the Earth is flat, or that they know someone who thinks such.Well this is the web site I was talking about http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ , granted I haven't looked at it in over a year so it could have changed. And there were several people who posted that had me wondering if they were just trolling us "round earthers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Hobo Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Well this is the web site I was talking about http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ , granted I haven't looked at it in over a year so it could have changed. And there were several people who posted that had me wondering if they were just trolling us "round earthers".You should be careful with conspiracy websites. As these people often have warped ideas of what is right, their sites can be pretty malicious. I was once reading a free energy one and it refused to let me leave unless I bought plans to their miracle device. I had to power down my PC to get away as even Task Manager wouldn't close it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggers Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Sailing ship top, lighthouses top... why do you see further if you are in higher positions?And why the first thing you see of another distant incomming sailing ship is first his top, and gradually his mast and finally his hull?It's well know from the ancient ages...Height -> Maximum vison1,70 m -> 4,7 km3,00 m -> 6,2 km10 m -> 11,3 km 50 m -> 25,4 km 75 m -> 31,1 km 100 m -> 36,0 km 250 m -> 56,9 km 500 m -> 80,4 km 750 m -> 98,5 km 1 km -> 113 km1,5 km -> 139 km 2 km -> 160 km3 km -> 197 km 4 km -> 227 kmhttp://www.weatherwise.org/Archives/Back%20Issues/2013/March-April%202013/titanic-mirage-full.html Edited July 2, 2015 by baggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 anyone not too lazy to try mountain climbing can view the curvature of the earth from the summit. the lazy can just catch a flight and look out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robotengineer Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 anyone not too lazy to try mountain climbing can view the curvature of the earth from the summit. the lazy can just catch a flight and look out the window.Everyone knows those aren't windows, those are SCREENS! They show the world the way the Round Earthers want you to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobodyhasthis Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Flat Earthers are muppets. Simple as that, it's not worth debating them.To be honest the so called debate here seems to beyond everyone's level of comprehension. The real message was is if you can't argue with conspiracy theory. Join in. Then make it up more even more silly conspiracy. Taken to the extreme it becomes Monty Python. I guess satire is too complex for some people. Next you will all be saying Pastafarianism is not a real religion.Everyone knows those aren't windows, those are SCREENS! They show the world the way the Round Earthers want you to see it.Correct. The only defense is a tin foil hat. Anybody not wearing a tinfoil hat is never to be trusted to look out of a so called "window". Edited July 2, 2015 by nobodyhasthis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YNM Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Well this is the web site I was talking about http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ , granted I haven't looked at it in over a year so it could have changed. And there were several people who posted that had me wondering if they were just trolling us "round earthers".You should be careful with conspiracy websites. As these people often have warped ideas of what is right, their sites can be pretty malicious. I was once reading a free energy one and it refused to let me leave unless I bought plans to their miracle device. I had to power down my PC to get away as even Task Manager wouldn't close it.That's script. You can use script blocker, or even Tor...Still, what a waste of time headbanging with a head made of really hard wood. May as well burn it down. Edited July 2, 2015 by YNM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts