TiktaalikDreaming

[WIP] German WWII rockets including never built absurdities

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realistic config probably. the rest of the rockets (apart from the V2, most of the time) feature 'mandatory disassembly' upon re-entry to the atmosphere as they would have done IRL, since the germans seemed to think heatshields were overrated.

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2 hours ago, halowraith1 said:

realistic config probably. the rest of the rockets (apart from the V2, most of the time) feature 'mandatory disassembly' upon re-entry to the atmosphere as they would have done IRL, since the germans seemed to think heatshields were overrated.

I don't think they'd worked out just how much heat there was, and they certainly didn't seem to cotton on to the idea of sacrificial/ablative shields.  Reentry was something that happened out of sensor range.  Which has been the great thing about working on this mod.  There's no reason to wonder how to get back down.  Because it predates "getting back down".  Certainly in a not explode sort of way.

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one time i did manage to glide the V2 down from orbit in RSS, but that was using a pair of procedural wings; the all-moving ones i think. i basically did the rollercoaster glide that the A-9 would have done to get to the US east coast

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This is updated (actually a day and a hlaf ago, but I just got around to running stock install tests on it).

The ramjet has made it in, although I feel I should drop the visual effect a tad more, it's too big.  The A-11 and A-12 now have those fins.   A lot of parts got some extra detailing.  Pretty much nothing has a texture beyond a small swatch of gurke green.  I fixed up the nose-cone chute for the A-4 a bit and dodgied up a surface attachable edition as well.  And generally all the assorted tweaks I've done since the last update.  An album of testing in a bare bones stock install is here http://imgur.com/a/p2Eg6

1TPlNtv.png

Next up, I'll be attempting landing gear for the A-6/A-9.  Because none of the stock gear really works.

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So, on a lark I decided to dry doing 1940s Space Program. Did the first ep (an A-9/A-10/A-11 satellite LV, getting 1 tonne into orbit)* without the aid of this, figuring I'd best try this out now. How's the RO configs?

 

*I link because I figure anyone in this thread would probably appreciate it.

 

Also, on the ramjet--saw you said you had some issues configuring it. How so? The stock curves should serve fairly well, it should have a slightly kinked atmCurve and a velCurve something like

key = 0 0 0 0

key = 0.29 0 0

key = 0.3 0 0

then the regular curve going up to max at Mach 5 or so

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28 minutes ago, NathanKell said:

So, on a lark I decided to dry doing 1940s Space Program. Did the first ep (an A-9/A-10/A-11 satellite LV, getting 1 tonne into orbit)* without the aid of this, figuring I'd best try this out now. How's the RO configs?

 

RO configs are shocking, and mostly missing.  :-)  I have a lot of the detail to go in in spreadsheets that I used to get the numbers for the stock config though.

Quote

*I link because I figure anyone in this thread would probably appreciate it.

Will watch.  Likely so will everyone else.  :-)
 

Quote

 

Also, on the ramjet--saw you said you had some issues configuring it. How so? The stock curves should serve fairly well, it should have a slightly kinked atmCurve and a velCurve something like

key = 0 0 0 0

key = 0.29 0 0

key = 0.3 0 0

then the regular curve going up to max at Mach 5 or so

 

Yeah, that was just me being unfamiliar with the values.  Seems to work fine now.

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@TiktaalikDreaming

Ah, gotcha!

 

Yeah, streaming part 2 atm--I notice that the A10 engine's mass is the same as the A-4 engine's, which seems...optimistic. I'm assuming a nominal 5 tonnes, and also putting the mixture back to Ethalox since I can't imagine them getting 247s off kero and nitric acid--did they later change to acid and kero (like the early Soviet storables attempts)?

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2 hours ago, NathanKell said:

@TiktaalikDreaming

Ah, gotcha!

 

Yeah, streaming part 2 atm--I notice that the A10 engine's mass is the same as the A-4 engine's, which seems...optimistic. I'm assuming a nominal 5 tonnes, and also putting the mixture back to Ethalox since I can't imagine them getting 247s off kero and nitric acid--did they later change to acid and kero (like the early Soviet storables attempts)?

Numbers for everything not the A-4 are suspect.  :-)

I never noticed the A-10 engine mass... derp.  The tank masses are calculated based of figures from Astronautix, but the rest are made up, or incorrectly cut-n-pasted like A-10.

Fuel.  There's no consensus on fuel (from the Internet, von Braun and friends may have been 100% sold on one or the other).  It varies between ethalox and diesel-oil/Nitric acid.  I suspect the way Germany was running out of virtually everything by the mid-40s was triggering all sorts of ideas, none of which got development funding.  I was going to change it all to Ethalox, but I haven't looked at the RF/RO config in a while.
I do intend (after my crash course in RO for the NAR MEM) to convert all the MM configs to RF module TANK, and do just a (real fuel) and (realism overhaul), without the (RSS without real fuels) edition.  RO gives so many more ways to make the old engines that much more annoying as well.  :-)

Edited by TiktaalikDreaming

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I messed around with RO config last night and this morning before work. Some basic tests show the A-4 fuel tank has a tendency to fall apart during gravity turns when part of the larger A-10. And I completely forgot to configure the A-12 fuel tank (or possibly added a large fuel capacity to some other part).

I'm not sure yet how to start an RO config for the ramjet. And I'm undecided on whether to make some crazy low tech ullage solutions. 

I'd also like to add peroxide and permanganate tanks and system for the engines. I won't go as far as pushing people into tuning the steam system to the nozzle. But I'm getting pretty close to a first cut of a realism overhaul release.

 

 

 

 

 

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I'll just leave this here for now; https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwa1oynl7b1sbol/RealismOverhaulWernhers.cfg?dl=0

Beta edition of Realism Overhaul config for Wernher's old bits.

As expected, I'd added the A-12 fuel tank config to a different part, in this case the fairing for between the A-12 and A-11.  If I'd right clicked in game I would have noticed a disturbing amount of potential fuel tank.

I'm not sure about how the ramjet will operate in RO just yet.  I'm completely new to AJE, so at the moment it's mostly just scaled and using avgas.

I haven't tested in RSS yet, as I accidentally installed into the wrong KSP. 

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Realism Overhaul fuel tank question (for anyone that knows).  Should tanks like the A-4's be structural or default?  It never seems to survive a gravity turn as default.

Also, more work to be done on the ramjet I think :-)

0M7D2CR.png

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Updated https://www.dropbox.com/s/rwa1oynl7b1sbol/RealismOverhaulWernhers.cfg?dl=0

Some small issues.  Because of my spreadsheet and the A-10 fins not being control surfaces (they're fixed aero surfaces), the RO config got a scaling up of the surface entered referring to the wrong column, and thus set to zero.  Solves a lot of the stupid issues I was having with the A-10.

Still messing about with ullage to try to get the A-4 to fire after separation with the A-10.  Pretty sure it was working when that separation was at higher altitude due to being part of the A-11 stack.  So it's probably just tweaking ullage.

Ramjet still self explody.

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Tested the full stack (A-9/A-10/A-11/A-12). First two stages (A-12/A-11), put me on Escape Velocity. Last two stages (A-10/A-9) managed to bring it back down to a ballistic Sub-Orbital trajectory. Max Altitude achieved by the rocket was 250 KM. May be slightly overpowered methinks.

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3 hours ago, Cdodders said:

Tested the full stack (A-9/A-10/A-11/A-12). First two stages (A-12/A-11), put me on Escape Velocity. Last two stages (A-10/A-9) managed to bring it back down to a ballistic Sub-Orbital trajectory. Max Altitude achieved by the rocket was 250 KM. May be slightly overpowered methinks.

The masses, fuels and efficiencies (although scaled down) are based on real world values.  KSP is full of midget planets that are very easy to get into orbit from.

Once I have a functioning RSS_RO config, I'll probably nerf the aggregate stock values though.  But at the moment they're just scaled real values.

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Ok.  By successively testing different amounts of add on procedural tank for the A-12 stage, I've managed to get the A-12 through A-9 into orbit.  It's a hairy ride.  But I have an idea how much extra fuel that A-12 stage needs, so I'll be adjusting the tank for the A-12 (which means the wings as well) so it has a bit over double the fuel capacity as suggested by http://www.astronautix.com/a/a9a10a11a12.html

This is how it looks with a procedural tank extra (it will have a shorter, more even look when I redesign the tank);

WtJa6xO.png

 

And, I may add some prebuilt ullage motors as well, just so I don't have to guess the required sizes.  AND so I can use WWII era solid rocket values.  'Cos that should be fun.  :-)

 

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jeez, count on Nazis to come up with the most ungainly looking rockets... :wink: parts look great!

WW2 solids sound fun!

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hey, i just had an idea. since the a-11 was proposed as a satellite launcher, would you be able to make an approximation of such a satellite and some sort of fairing for an unmanned V2 to contain it?

Edited by halowraith1

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7 hours ago, halowraith1 said:

hey, i just had an idea. since the a-11 was proposed as a satellite launcher, would you be able to make an approximation of such a satellite and some sort of fairing for an unmanned V2 to contain it?

I've been thinking about the top end of the A-4 for a while.  Between the section that houses the control gyros and the nose cone there's a bit of space.  The actual space needed by the controls is less than what's available, so a smaller control, with a fairing above could work.  The nose itself is pretty much wasted space in KSP.

Now, procedural fairing or doored cargo area?  Option 1 has obvious advantages in flexibility of use.  But option 2 has advantages in being annoying and limited.  :-)

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Managed a reasonably stable launch to orbit vehicle in RSS+RO.  With an updated A-12 tank with 2.5 times the capacity as what's been listed at astronautix.  http://imgur.com/a/ZSc1U

My only remaining issue is Mechjeb deciding to "coast" at inappropriate times.  Then it'll be update time.

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Really impressive work! Some of these designs remind me of Collier's Magazine and their "Man Will Conquer Space Soon!" series.

aihkm24i4txb0ij0rrsk.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Jack Wolfe said:

Really impressive work! Some of these designs remind me of Collier's Magazine and their "Man Will Conquer Space Soon!" series.

aihkm24i4txb0ij0rrsk.jpg

That's Von Braun's Ferry Rocket.  Basically the A-12 translated forward into USA purposes.  And why I made the first stage's wings so huge.  :-)

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were the first and third stages meant to land? Or did Von Braun just like big wings?

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28 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

were the first and third stages meant to land? Or did Von Braun just like big wings?

Stages 1 and 2 were supposed to parachute back to earth, but the third stage was supposedly a flying wing.

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5 minutes ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

Stages 1 and 2 were supposed to parachute back to earth, but the third stage was supposedly a flying wing.

cool! Its interesting how early they were looking at reusability to save costs. The Saturn stages were initially meant to be reusable as well, but they cut that in order to meet the Moon deadline. I wonder if we still might be flying them (or incremental upgrades) if that capability had been kept.

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