Which KSC upgrade first?

[Mister Spock]

Which KSC upgrade do you recommend doing first?  I'm using the Engineering Tech Tree and New Horizons mods, so my career has been all unmanned so far.  I still haven't unlocked manned space flight, though I'm about to do so.  As it is, I can orbit Kerbin and conduct suborbital flights to earn cash and science.  (Making orbit with less than 30 parts and 20 tons has been a fun change of pace.)  But I suspect the part limit and especially the weight limit will make it tough for me to go beyond Kerbin to these mysterious New Horizons celestial bodies.  I'm playing on Hard mode (except I've enabled quicksaves and reverts), so money is tight; I have 168,000 hard-earned funds to my name.

Anyway, right now I see two leading affordable candidates for upgrade: the 150,000-fund launchpad, to let me use bigger boosters to increase delta-V; or the 150,000-fund astronaut complex, to let my Kerbals take soil samples and whatnot around KSC for some juicy science.  What do you all recommend?

[Dfthu]

I would recommend doing the launch pad first and then astronaut complex and lastly the VAB.

[Geschosskopf]

8 hours ago, Mister Spock said:

Which KSC upgrade do you recommend doing first?  I'm using the Engineering Tech Tree and New Horizons mods, so my career has been all unmanned so far.  I still haven't unlocked manned space flight, though I'm about to do so.  As it is, I can orbit Kerbin and conduct suborbital flights to earn cash and science.  (Making orbit with less than 30 parts and 20 tons has been a fun change of pace.)  But I suspect the part limit and especially the weight limit will make it tough for me to go beyond Kerbin to these mysterious New Horizons celestial bodies.  I'm playing on Hard mode (except I've enabled quicksaves and reverts), so money is tight; I have 168,000 hard-earned funds to my name.

Anyway, right now I see two leading affordable candidates for upgrade: the 150,000-fund launchpad, to let me use bigger boosters to increase delta-V; or the 150,000-fund astronaut complex, to let my Kerbals take soil samples and whatnot around KSC for some juicy science.  What do you all recommend?

There are in general 4 things you need to upgrade ASAP:

1. Launchpad (or runway if you're concentrating on planes instead of rockets).  This is necessary to launch something big enough to go to space.  To begin with, you can usually build something bigger than you can launch.
2. VAB (or SPH).  Immediately after or simultaneously with upgraded the launch facility, you need to upgrade the construction building so you can build something with enough parts to take advantage of the new launchpad/runway capability, get to Mun, and collect as much science as possible.
3. Tracking Center.  This gives you patched conics in the map view, which makes getting to other places (even Mun) MUCh easier.
4. Mission Control:  This gives you maneuver nodes in the map view, which again makes going places much easier.  However, maneuver nodes aren't quite as critical as patched conics.

The above should be all you need for a fairly long time.  If you're doing probes, there's no need for the astronaut complex for a while, although you eventually need it so you can do EVAs away from Kerbin.  And you're eventually forced to upgrade R&D to be able to unlock the mid-level nodes, but there's no great rush to do that until you have to.  I can't remember whether you get EVA surface samples from R&D or the astronaut complex, but once you've got EVA capability, getting surface samples should be a fairly high priority due to the amout of science it gets you.

Upgradiing Admin depends largely on play style.  Personally, I don't find any of the strategies very useful at all unless I'm playing a super-hard game.  If you play on regular or easy difficulty, then strategies don't do you much good.

As for the 2nd upgrades of the buildings, Mission Control (for all-you-can-eat contracts --> mo' money) is probably the 1st priority unless you have to do R&D or the Astronaut Complex to get EVA surface samples.  Then your main way of getting to space (launchpad/VAB or runway/SPH).  The top level of R&D is only really needed to unlock the top-end nodes so can be deferred until late in the game.  The top end of the tracking center only lets you track asteroids which really isn't that useful unless you're getting lots of asteroid contracts AND have the rocket parts AND money to go catch them.  If not needed for surface samples, the top end of the Astronaut Complex is only useful if you have a lot of Kerbals to store (such as from doing many rescues).

[Mister Spock]

Many thanks for those very helpful replies.  Playing with New Horizons certainly throws a monkey wrench into this issue.  In stock, I could probably make my way to the Mun without patched conics, but in this mod, I have no idea where I'm going!  So patched conics are a huge priority.

On the other hand, in either stock or this mod, I'm not going much further unless I upgrade the launchpad and VAB, and I don't have the funds for the VAB upgrade, so I lean toward launchpad, as Dfthu recommended.  

On the other other hand, I'm about to unlock manned space flight, which I assume might lead to rescue missions.  I'll need EVA for those, won't I?  And to collect soil samples from KSC/Kerbin, I certainly need EVA.  So, I think I might unlock manned missions, see what contracts I get, and then decide which upgrade to do first.

Anyway, it's an interesting first decision.  In the past, money's been so easy for me, I haven't had to think hard about upgrade priorities.  This time, it's a significant choice.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Mister Spock

[Snark]

I would second the vote for "launchpad first."  For one thing, it's cheap, easy to do without putting a hole in your budget.

I also find that I bump up against mass limits much sooner than part-count limits; bumping up the launch pad means I can use several Thumper SRBs, which greatly improves my options without raising the part count a lot.

My typical career progression looks like this:

1. Initial futzing around with simple hops, World First money, etc.
2. Get to orbit
3. Upgrade launchpad
4. Get to Mun with a very simple ship (Mun is doable without patched conics)
5. Either get tracking station first and go to Minmus with a very simple ship, or else get VAB first and go to Mun with a more complex ship
6. Upgrade the VAB  (if I did the tracking station) or the tracking station (if I did the VAB)

Agreed that New Horizons really, really needs patched conics.    Though you can get to Aptur without 'em if you're careful about it (and willing to waste some dV on a suboptimal flight path).

[Mister Spock]

Thanks, Snark.  So you wouldn't bother with the EVA upgrade yet?  There's yummy science to be had with EVA, but yeah, my rockets won't take me beyond LKO without a launchpad upgrade.

[Snark]

5 minutes ago, Mister Spock said:

Thanks, Snark.  So you wouldn't bother with the EVA upgrade yet?  There's yummy science to be had with EVA, but yeah, my rockets won't take me beyond LKO without a launchpad upgrade.

Whoops.  Knew I was forgetting something. 

Definitely the launchpad first.  You could do EVA upgrade next, before the Mun shot, if you like.  Basically, the two options are "get EVA first, do orbit and grab EVA above lots of biomes" or "go to Mun first, transmit science."  I tend to do Mun first.  It's totally doable within 30 parts and without patched conics.  It's also doable with batteries alone, if you don't have solar panels yet.  However, it's tricky to do in under 18 tons, so I generally get the launchpad upgrade.  The nice thing is that going to the Mun gives you a ton of World First cash, so you can then use that to get the EVA upgrade.

One thing to bear in mind-- tootling around KSC to pick up science from the various buildings got even easier in 1.0.5.  The Juno is fantastic for that, and it's available super early.

[cantab]

1 hour ago, Mister Spock said:

Many thanks for those very helpful replies.  Playing with New Horizons certainly throws a monkey wrench into this issue.  In stock, I could probably make my way to the Mun without patched conics, but in this mod, I have no idea where I'm going!  So patched conics are a huge priority.

I play New Horizons myself. Do remember that Sonnah is another celestial body with its own science results and requires no special finesse to get out of Kerbin's SOI for that. Heck, you can probably hit it just flying by the seat of your pants if you want.

[Snark]

3 minutes ago, cantab said:

I play New Horizons myself. Do remember that Sonnah is another celestial body with its own science results and requires no special finesse to get out of Kerbin's SOI for that. Heck, you can probably hit it just flying by the seat of your pants if you want.

Yah, the main challenge in NH is that the science values of everything in the Sonnah system are scaled way down-- basically, you need to get all the science from all the moons (and Sonnah itself) to equal the science returns from just Mun+Minmus in stock KSP.  So yes, it's easy to get out of Kerbin's SoI to Sonnah.... but Sonnah science is really not worth much.

So to get your tech to the place you need so you can go exploring the rest of the solar system, you really need to hit all of Sonnah's moons, which in turn means that you really, really need patched conics.

(My New Horizons career is the only one where I've resorted to using the science lab.  Normally I steer clear of it because it feels "too easy" to the point of being cheaty, and I just don't like it.  In NH, however, the science rewards in Sonnah system are so stingy that I finally resorted to using a lab out of sheer frustration.)

[Mister Spock]

@cantab: My contracts are certainly breadcrumbing me to Sonnah's SOI.  I have several contracts to put satellites in particular orbits around Sonnah.  I'm just not sure I can risk taking one (and using up one of my two precious Active contract slots) without any KSC upgrades yet.

@Snark: I didn't realize that science rewards are scaled down in the Sonnah system.  Good to know!  I actually kinda like the idea that science is a bit more spread around.  I'm certainly looking forward to doing something different than my usual Mun/Minmus expeditions.

[OhioBob]

I like the following order:

1)  Astronaut complex (75,000 funds) - Allows EVAs (i.e. more science), up to 12 kerbonauts, and flag planting.
2)  Tracking Station (150,000) - Enables patched conics.
3)  Mission Control (75,000) - Enables maneuver nodes (with Tracking Station upgrade); allows up to 12 contracts.
4)  Launch Pad (75,000) - Allows taller and heavier vessels (I do this before VAB only because it's cheaper).
5)  Vehicle Assembly building (150,000) - Allows 225-part vessels and enables basic action groups.
6)  Research and Development (451,000) - 500 research limit, surface samples, resource transfer.

I don't bother with the Runway or SPH because I don't do planes.  For the second round of upgrades, I usually don't follow any particular order.

[Mister Spock]

Thanks, @OhioBob.  For what it's worth, my upgrade costs are all at least double that, probably because I chose "Hard" difficulty (though I did enable quicksaving/reverting, and I nudged science yields up over 100%).  E.g., my Launch Pad costs 150,000, and right now I have 168,000 to my name.  Money is very tight for me at this level of difficulty.  Nothing that some contract-grinding won't fix, though.  

[OhioBob]

1 hour ago, Mister Spock said:

Thanks, @OhioBob.  For what it's worth, my upgrade costs are all at least double that, probably because I chose "Hard" difficulty (though I did enable quicksaving/reverting, and I nudged science yields up over 100%).  E.g., my Launch Pad costs 150,000, and right now I have 168,000 to my name.  Money is very tight for me at this level of difficulty.  Nothing that some contract-grinding won't fix, though.  

Yes, the costs that I listed are for a "normal" game.  Those costs are probably factored up at greater difficulties.

I really like upgrading the Astronaut Complex first for several reasons.  First, it's a cheap upgrade.  Second, it allows EVAs (the only EVAs allowed prior to the upgrade are on the surface of Kerbin).  EVAs are by biome for "surface", "flying low", and "in space low," which gives ample opportunities to collect science.  And third, the upgrade to 12 kerbonauts makes it possible to conduct a large number of "rescue" contracts, allowing expansion of the kerobonaut corps while collecting all-important funds.  We can also perform "plant flag" contracts.  All things considered, I think the Astronaut Complex gives the biggest bang for the buck as a first building upgrade.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, Mister Spock said:

Thanks, @OhioBob.  For what it's worth, my upgrade costs are all at least double that, probably because I chose "Hard" difficulty (though I did enable quicksaving/reverting, and I nudged science yields up over 100%).  E.g., my Launch Pad costs 150,000, and right now I have 168,000 to my name.  Money is very tight for me at this level of difficulty.  Nothing that some contract-grinding won't fix, though.  

Ouch.  Yeah, you're gonna have a tough row to hoe.

I like things to be challenging, so I'm fine with reducing financial rewards a bit (like down to the 80% or so that "Moderate" career brings), but reduce it below a certain critical level and the game becomes (for me at least) seriously un-fun.  It turns into a relentless financial grind where I have to do endless contracts to finance the actually interesting missions that are the reason I play KSP in the first place.  If I wanted an endless grind, I'd play WoW.  I know that plenty of KSP players cheerfully go to "Hard" difficulty, but not me-- "Hard" tightens money considerably beyond the "fun" threshold, as far as I'm concerned.

My usual career setting is "Moderate", with reentry heat cranked up a notch or two.

[Mister Spock]

Yeah, I'm a bit worried I overdid it on the financial difficulty for this game.  I don't care for grinding, either.  So far I've managed to do mostly interesting stuff and still make money, but if it gets grindy, I'll rethink.  Can one adjust the difficulty level mid-game?  I suppose there are mods that do that.

[OhioBob]

54 minutes ago, Mister Spock said:

Yeah, I'm a bit worried I overdid it on the financial difficulty for this game.  I don't care for grinding, either.  So far I've managed to do mostly interesting stuff and still make money, but if it gets grindy, I'll rethink.  Can one adjust the difficulty level mid-game?  I suppose there are mods that do that.

You can try editing your persistent.sfs file.  For my "normal" game the settings are:

  CAREER
  {
   TechTreeUrl = GameData/Squad/Resources/TechTree.cfg
   StartingFunds = 25000
   StartingScience = 0
   StartingReputation = 0
   FundsGainMultiplier = 1
   RepGainMultiplier = 1
   ScienceGainMultiplier = 1
   FundsLossMultiplier = 1
   RepLossMultiplier = 1
   RepLossDeclined = 1
  }

There are a bunch of others settings as well, but I don't know what it all means.  Surely there is somewhere in there where you can change the cost to level up facilities, perhaps you can find it.

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by OhioBob

[Mister Spock]

Thanks for that suggestion, @OhioBob.  I might try that.  We'll see how things go.

[Temstar]

You don't actually need upgraded Astronaut Complex to do lots of rescue missions, the contracting companies will happily give you more rescue missions even if the new guy causes you to exceed your maximum astronaut headcount. But still, it's good for early upgrade because not only does EVA allow you to gather lots more data on the same flight, the ability to gather up the experiment results to bring back to your capsule makes returning the data to Kerbin much easier.

[Chakat Firepaw]

One thing that has been missed is that you should keep an eye on Mission Control, as you can sometimes upgrade it 'for free'.

Check the advances on long-duration contracts you want to do and any no deadline contracts:  Trading a few contract slots for the upgrade is probably worth it.