[1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[jd284]

If I want to make a PR to stop being able to disassemble asteroids into MaterialKits, what would be best?

1. Remove the option entirely? But then what to do with depleted asteroids?
2. Change it to 0% MaterialKits and rename it to "Destroy asteroid"?
3. Change the converted resource to Dirt? Rock? Not sure if that would cause issues with other mods that use this resource. Dirt might be good since it will disappear right away (not allowed in orbit).
4. Or maybe make it convert to something silly like 0 ElectricCharge?

I think personally I'd prefer 2 or 3.

[RoverDude]

I'd go with 2 to be honest, and just tie it to the demolition charge, not to engineer's scrapping ability.

 

[Gilph]

2 minutes ago, jd284 said:

If I want to make a PR to stop being able to disassemble asteroids into MaterialKits, what would be best?

1. Remove the option entirely? But then what to do with depleted asteroids?
2. Change it to 0% MaterialKits and rename it to "Destroy asteroid"?
3. Change the converted resource to Dirt? Rock? Not sure if that would cause issues with other mods that use this resource. Dirt might be good since it will disappear right away (not allowed in orbit).
4. Or maybe make it convert to something silly like 0 ElectricCharge?

I think personally I'd prefer 2 or 3.

Three seems pretty good

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, Gilph said:

Three seems pretty good

With ART, that means serveral MILLION  tonnes of rock. Overkill much?

Edited February 19, 2017 by voicey99

[jd284]

5 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

I'd go with 2 to be honest, and just tie it to the demolition charge, not to engineer's scrapping ability.

 

Hmm, the demolition charge (USI_ModuleDemolition) would also destroy the parent part which wouldn't be good. So I think I would leave it as USI_ModuleRecycleablePart which requires an engineer, and without engineers people would need to use an actual demolition charge.

[LatiMacciato]

29 minutes ago, jd284 said:

If I want to make a PR to stop being able to disassemble asteroids into MaterialKits, what would be best?

1. Remove the option entirely? But then what to do with depleted asteroids?
2. Change it to 0% MaterialKits and rename it to "Destroy asteroid"?
3. Change the converted resource to Dirt? Rock? Not sure if that would cause issues with other mods that use this resource. Dirt might be good since it will disappear right away (not allowed in orbit).
4. Or maybe make it convert to something silly like 0 ElectricCharge?

I think personally I'd prefer 2 or 3.

 

26 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

I'd go with 2 to be honest, and just tie it to the demolition charge, not to engineer's scrapping ability.

 

I vote for 2 aswell, but would accept option 3 (w/e resource that will be if it comes to that), also I personally think the term "hollow/empty asteroid" would be more fitting.

 

25 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

With ART, that means serveral MILLION  tonnes of rock. Overkill much?

I prefer Hangars combined with configurable containers over ART where you can store resources and ships with 1 hatch, but yes if ART is used that might be overkill.

Edited February 19, 2017 by LatiMacciato

[voicey99]

I would probably say that asteroids should not be dismantleable by Kerbals. They are giant lumps of rock, not fragile spaceship parts, and it would take a Kerbal days to demolish it with a jackhammer. As for the demo charge bit, I think it should only be able to destroy the asteroid when the asteroid is either below 10% resources remaining or weighs <1000t (if that is even possible to code in), whichever is the greater, since there is no way a couple of sticks of dynamite is going to even make a crack in a 5-megatonne boulder. As for resources, maybe it could be blown up into rock with a low efficiency (~20%?) since detonating it over lasering it would give some recoverable resources but most of that rock is not going to be collectable or usable.

Edited February 19, 2017 by voicey99

[LatiMacciato]

9 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

I would probably say that asteroids should not be dismantleable by Kerbals. They are giant lumps of rock, not fragile spaceship parts, and it would take a Kerbal days to demolish it with a jackhammer. As for the demo charge bit, I think it should only be able to destroy the asteroid when the asteroid is either below 10% resources remaining or weighs <1000t (if that is possible), whichever is the greater, since there is no way a couple of sticks of dynamite is going to even make a crack in a 5-megatonne boulder. As for resources, maybe it could be blown up into rock with a low efficiency (~20%?) since detonating it over lasering it would give some recoverable resources but most of that rock is not going to be collectable or usable.

let's introduce another new resource .. space dust! It's just made of dreams hehe! Very usable to keep on proceeding in any space travel. (mostly dreaming and imagining things brought Neil Armstrong AND Jebediah Kerman to da Mun!)

fun aside: what about those who do not use ART?

Edited February 19, 2017 by LatiMacciato

[voicey99]

Just now, LatiMacciato said:

lets introduce another new resource .. space dust! its just made of dreams hehe

TBH detonating a several-thousand-tonne asteroid in low orbit would be a really dumb idea in reality.

[Omnipius]

New day, new issues.

The good news: Minmus City, my enormous new base capable of sustaining over 100 kerbals and producing over 1000 MaterialKits per hour (plus equally large surpluses of SpecializedParts, Machinery, etc) is finally complete!

The bad news: I can't seem to get it to draw out the 9000 Machinery I have stored in PS into it's Machinery warehouse. 

I have a logistics module with a pilot in it and PL appears to be working for all of the other resources. My understanding is that Machinery is only blacklisted from LL, but not PL. So, what am I doing wrong here?

[jd284]

5 minutes ago, Omnipius said:

I have a logistics module with a pilot in it and PL appears to be working for all of the other resources. My understanding is that Machinery is only blacklisted from LL, but not PL. So, what am I doing wrong here?

Do you have a machinery warehouse container? It works for me with an ISM.

 

Unrelated: Does anyone actually use the Tundra Recycling module? I can't think of a use case for it.

If you have the resources locally, an extra drill plus an efficiency smelter easily beats the recycling module, at a fraction of the cost and mass. You'll already have a refinery anyway.

And if you don't have the resources locally, the recycling throughput is so pitiful that it won't help. (And why would you even set up a manufacturing outpost where there's no resources...)

It'd be different if it could put those recyclables back together with some SpecializedParts directly into machinery. Then it would remove the need to ship in Machinery and you only need SpecializedParts shipments, without a full fledged assembly plant.

[TauPhraim]

I wanted to finally understand how efficiency parts acted, so I dug into the code.
I reached a point where I could even find and fix one obvious bug, but some things are still a bit confusing.

Currently:

• kerbals with the RepBoost skill will accumulate both toward:
  • KolonizationResearch (the thing displayed as "Kolonization x%" in the dashboard)
  • Reputation (the amount you collect using "Check kolony rewards")
• kerbals with FundsBoost toward:
  • GeologyResearch
  • Funds
• kerbals with ScienceBoost toward:
  • BotanyResearch
  • Reputation

This is proportional to both the number of MKSModule on the vessel being updated, and the number of kerbals on board with the skill (but their levels make no difference).

All MKS converters are scaled by the GeologyResearch bonus only, and twice (200% geology will make them 4x as fast).
As far as I could find, drills do not use any of these bonuses.

 

The wiki regarding this subject is not in line with all that. To me, what it describes makes more sense.

I think things could benefit from some terminology, documentation, and even mecanisms updates (also for efficiency parts, as I could confirm this problem by reading the code).

 

@RoverDude can you confirm all this / clarify potential plans you had / give us greenlight to suggest or even implement changes ?
Thanks

[Omnipius]

4 minutes ago, jd284 said:

Do you have a machinery warehouse container? It works for me with an ISM.

That I do. For some reason, it won't fill. I tried cycling its resource type, disconnecting it and reconnecting it from the base, switching vessels both in and out of physics range, switch to the KSC and back. Only thing I haven't tried is a full KSP reboot. I don't have much faith in that seeing as all of the other warehouses are working just fine.

[voicey99]

1 hour ago, jd284 said:

Unrelated: Does anyone actually use the Tundra Recycling module? I can't think of a use case for it.

If you have the resources locally, an extra drill plus an efficiency smelter easily beats the recycling module, at a fraction of the cost and mass. You'll already have a refinery anyway.

And if you don't have the resources locally, the recycling throughput is so pitiful that it won't help. (And why would you even set up a manufacturing outpost where there's no resources...)

It'd be different if it could put those recyclables back together with some SpecializedParts directly into machinery. Then it would remove the need to ship in Machinery and you only need SpecializedParts shipments, without a full fledged assembly plant.

I use it for 2 reasons: 1)just cause 2)It does help when you have too many MKTs so you can instead break parts down into recyclables with the demo charge and convert them into resources that would be be a pain to get in larger quantities. If you're just producing a small amount of SPTs or MCH then all you really need are the small amounts of resources it gives you from blowing up used machinery or spare rocket parts.

[RoverDude]

23 minutes ago, TauPhraim said:

I wanted to finally understand how efficiency parts acted, so I dug into the code.
I reached a point where I could even find and fix one obvious bug, but some things are still a bit confusing.

Currently:

• kerbals with the RepBoost skill will accumulate both toward:
  • KolonizationResearch (the thing displayed as "Kolonization x%" in the dashboard)
  • Reputation (the amount you collect using "Check kolony rewards")
• kerbals with FundsBoost toward:
  • GeologyResearch
  • Funds
• kerbals with ScienceBoost toward:
  • BotanyResearch
  • Reputation

This is proportional to both the number of MKSModule on the vessel being updated, and the number of kerbals on board with the skill (but their levels make no difference).

All MKS converters are scaled by the GeologyResearch bonus only, and twice (200% geology will make them 4x as fast).
As far as I could find, drills do not use any of these bonuses.

 

The wiki regarding this subject is not in line with all that. To me, what it describes makes more sense.

I think things could benefit from some terminology, documentation, and even mecanisms updates (also for efficiency parts, as I could confirm this problem by reading the code).

 

@RoverDude can you confirm all this / clarify potential plans you had / give us greenlight to suggest or even implement changes ?
Thanks

Bonuses are accrued based on the Kerbals not the modules themselves, so a Wiki update is likely needed.  If you have a fix for the ticket you noted (#1114) then a PR is always appreciated, tho bear in mind I am polishing up a release and will be pushing stuff tomorrow.

Suggestions always welcome, changes for defects are welcome, other changes should usually be discussed in this thread first

[RoverDude]

Another example would be ark ships where you do not have the luxury of mining new resources.

[Omnipius]

2 hours ago, Omnipius said:

That I do. For some reason, it won't fill. I tried cycling its resource type, disconnecting it and reconnecting it from the base, switching vessels both in and out of physics range, switch to the KSC and back. Only thing I haven't tried is a full KSP reboot. I don't have much faith in that seeing as all of the other warehouses are working just fine.

Nope. Reboot was not the answer. I'm using the 1.25m Flat Kontainer for rapid PL push and pull. It's also not working on my other bases. Maybe the issue is Kontainer dependent?

[Gooner]

Hi i recently installed this mod and noticed there was new classes added since i last used this mod. I decided to remove the mod for this reason as i felt it was a little bloated and also all my rescue missions ended up being for one of the new classes when i really needed to rescue some of the base classes for my space programe. So i removed the mod and just reinstalled the LS mod only. But now when i do rescue missions the guys im rescuing are tourists in which i can Eva with but nothing else. Im guessing they arent meant to be tourists but are meant to be 1 of the MKS added classes but because the mod is removed they show up as tourists.

 

Is there anyway around this without having to start a new save ?

 

Ps

The rescue missions i speak of are fresh IE months/years in game time after the mod was removed.

[Kaa253]

8 hours ago, TauPhraim said:

The wiki regarding this subject is not in line with all that. To me, what it describes makes more sense.

@TauPhraim I see what you are driving at and you are quite correct. The kerbal professions matter not the modules for earning kolony bonuses.

I copied that text over from the KSPedia in a hurry last week as life was very busy. I just wanted to make the page to get it started as the wiki had nothing at all on the Dashboard. I guess this indicates that the KSPedia needs an update here too.

Please, as Roverdude says "changes for defects are welcome" so go ahead and make it better. The page you mention is really intended as just an introduction to the Dashboard as people often post here having trouble finding it and the associated Recruit Kolonists (soon to be replaced with TRP) tab. This page https://github.com/BobPalmer/MKS/wiki/Crew-Skills-Impact-on-Parts may be in better shape with regards to professions and how they relate to bonuses.

By the way, there is another forum thread which may (a mixed blessing) have some value in keeping this thread from filling up with wiki and KSPedia discussions?

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Kaa253

[TauPhraim]

7 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Bonuses are accrued based on the Kerbals not the modules themselves, so a Wiki update is likely needed

....

Suggestions always welcome, changes for defects are welcome, other changes should usually be discussed in this thread first

It would require testing to confirm, but from what I can tell, each MKSModule's FixedUpdate function will accrue bonuses. A fix would probably require switching that to a vessel module, but this would drastically reduce the current rate, so a rebalance might be needed. For example, bonuses grows with square root of time passed, but I don't know if that is intended, or was introduced to counter the fact that the bonus is later squared.

I can easily fix #1114, but my whole description is about larger scale changes that I think are needed:

• confusing terminology (ex "Geology" equals "Funds")
• geology bonus used by all converters whatever their kind, and not by drills
• other bonuses almost not used outside of "collect rewards"
• efficiency parts workings a bit too complicated, making it very hard to document

I propose the following (and can try implementing them):

• introduce 3 new bonuses so that there are 6 distinct bonuses: geology, botany, industry, reputation, general science, funds
• gain these bonuses still based on kerbal skills, but counting their levels, and only once per vessel (or maybe based on active converters and their types, but that would be more complicated)
• use the 3 new bonuses in various converters, preferably not squared (that would allow "x%" displayed to simply mean to users "converters will run at x% speed")

(as you can see @Kaa253, I don't think the doc is the first thing to change )

7 hours ago, RoverDude said:

bear in mind I am polishing up a release and will be pushing stuff tomorrow

Are some of these impacting these bonuses and efficiency parts workings ?

[Kaa253]

1 hour ago, TauPhraim said:

(as you can see @Kaa253, I don't think the doc is the first thing to change )

Ah. OK.

I was only discussing the documentation. The documentation is really the only thing I might ever change. And I do that rarely and simply in the hope that I might help folks get the most fun out of USI and perhaps free up Rover a bit to work his best magic.

I leave all the mod balance, design, innovation, planning and all-round thinking to the Maestro, i.e. @RoverDude. 

[Gilph]

15 hours ago, jd284 said:

Unrelated: Does anyone actually use the Tundra Recycling module? I can't think of a use case for it.

I just started testing it.  All of your points are true, it's not terribly useful at the moment. RD's point is good, but not sure it would be that useful.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Gilph
read everything first...

[RoverDude]

5 hours ago, TauPhraim said:

It would require testing to confirm, but from what I can tell, each MKSModule's FixedUpdate function will accrue bonuses. A fix would probably require switching that to a vessel module, but this would drastically reduce the current rate, so a rebalance might be needed. For example, bonuses grows with square root of time passed, but I don't know if that is intended, or was introduced to counter the fact that the bonus is later squared.

I can easily fix #1114, but my whole description is about larger scale changes that I think are needed:

• confusing terminology (ex "Geology" equals "Funds")
• geology bonus used by all converters whatever their kind, and not by drills
• other bonuses almost not used outside of "collect rewards"
• efficiency parts workings a bit too complicated, making it very hard to document

I propose the following (and can try implementing them):

• introduce 3 new bonuses so that there are 6 distinct bonuses: geology, botany, industry, reputation, general science, funds
• gain these bonuses still based on kerbal skills, but counting their levels, and only once per vessel (or maybe based on active converters and their types, but that would be more complicated)
• use the 3 new bonuses in various converters, preferably not squared (that would allow "x%" displayed to simply mean to users "converters will run at x% speed")

(as you can see @Kaa253, I don't think the doc is the first thing to change )

Are some of these impacting these bonuses and efficiency parts workings ?

Probably a miscommunication - yes, the bonuses take place in MKS Module, but the bonus is based on the Kerbal, not on the Module type (i.e. Scientist vs Agriculture... tho you are probably going to have a Scientist in an Ag Module).  Also growth is exponential in that your bonus is (effectively) number of Kerbals with that boost trait in your entire vessel multiplied by the number of MKS parts that you have.  This encourages growing both your base as well as your Kerbal count.  As always, there's the potential for exploits (like spamming low-mass parts), but in general it rewards just 'playing the game'.

For the rest...

- Drills should already have the Geology bonus (at least the MKS ones).  If it is an issue with the stock one, that can be sorted with a Module Manager fix and replace its harvester with ModuleResourceHarverster_USI.
- Efficiency Parts should not take into account these bonuses as noted in #1114 and be a flat 100%.  Let me know if you have a PR for that one bit, otherwise I need to sort that this morning as @allista is planning a GC release which means I am buttoning up an MKS release today.
- All three bonuses are used frequently enough IMO - and bear in mind, not all are used just by MKS and in converters (for example, the Kolonization bonus is used to amplify the effect of MKS Habitation modules).

For the proposals:

- I am not sure of the value of adding the three new buckets, since (in theory, as these are already trait based), they would advance in lockstep.  I think this one is a documentation issue more than anything else - I am not sure other than that where the gameplay bonus is.
- They are already based on Kerbal skills, and counted for those Kerbals inhabiting MKS based parts.
- Last point looks like a display issue - the running speed should be (in theory) clearly visible, since the display should account for efficiency bonuses which are part of stock.  If these are missing, then that may be a stock bug that I need to look at.
- The squaring and multiplying are by design (and does result in Geology being more important, as it can have an impact on farming for example).

Definitely not opposed to a few more Kolony effects (maybe splitting out geology vs manufacturing, etc.?) tho these would always need to be paired with one of the three currencies.  As it is, it is fairly simple - three bonuses, three main classes, three career rewards, three secondary effects.

 

 

 

 

[RoverDude]

Totally unrelated by the way - working on the next release, and you will soon be getting new refineries and drills designed specifically for unattended operation.  They will not get specialty or kolonization bonuses, but they will make setting up remote harvesters in advance of kolonization efforts significantly easier.  They will be in 1.25, 2.5, and 3.75 form factors (I'm borrowing re-textured reactors to handle the model setup).

[Chainbullet]

I am having trouble with the orbital ring. It will deploy when in the VAB or SPH, but it won't do anything in space. In addition I can't switch it from greenhouse mode. Any help?