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Extended Stays on Venus could be possible with Tougher Transistors

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3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Electronic is more capable, they are already up to the 10K transistor scale as in more advanced than the Apollo mission computer. 

Pneumatic systems are cool, its used in the oil industry for sub-sea and down in the well head. Here electronic is also hard to use, but you already have hydraulic and you don't need complex stuff, simple logic and pid regulators is all you need. Yes you also have electronic but the ruggedness of pneumatic is nice

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Can we finally go now?

Edited by NSEP

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1 hour ago, NSEP said:

Can we finally go now?

"The pie is finite," says Bob Grimm, a geophysicist at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, and chairman of NASA's Venus Exploration Analysis Group. "If we want to improve Venus's share, we have to have some kind of initial mission to get people excited again." -http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/armed-tough-computer-chips-scientists-are-ready-return-hell-venus

Well, if you want exciting try blasted out of a capsule with a pressure 92 times earth surface and a temperature 462'C (hot spots go up to 827'C). You will be ablaze with excitement!!!!! Any volunteers?

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2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Electronic is more capable

While hydro/pneumo are less fragile at those pressure and temperature.
Of course, their FPS is poor, but does anybody hurry on the Venusian surface?

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7 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

While hydro/pneumo are less fragile at those pressure and temperature.
Of course, their FPS is poor, but does anybody hurry on the Venusian surface?

True, but you need an minimum number of gates to do stuff that is some thousands for an very primitive general computer, 10K for one who is way more capable and faster.
You can go lower if you don't use general computers but its nice to have if you run multiple experiments, having to store data for transmitting, having to re-send data or be more flexible overall
 

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31 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

While hydro/pneumo are less fragile at those pressure and temperature.
Of course, their FPS is poor, but does anybody hurry on the Venusian surface?

Forgive my ignorance, what does FPS stand for? In regards to computer performance the only thing that comes to mind is “frames per second” but that would be utterly nonsense—no one would play computer games on a landed Venus probe. And obviously this term is more meaningful that the word “performance” (or that would have been used).

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9 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

FPS

"Frames-per-second" as a jolly allegory for "computer perfomance".

9 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

no one would play computer games on a landed Venus probe

That's exactly what we do in KSP all the way.

(As if you play computer games on hydraulic computer on the Earth surface.)

Edited by kerbiloid

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So what kind of battery can operate at 462'C to run this computer?

And of course you need a transmitter. A camera with a digital photocell, some ground testing equipment, possibly a laser. . . . . . .

 

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As Venus rotates slowly, unlikely it could also use the underground temperature gradient as an energy source. Probably, the ground is warmed deeply.

Edited by kerbiloid

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1 hour ago, PB666 said:

So what kind of battery can operate at 462'C to run this computer?

And of course you need a transmitter. A camera with a digital photocell, some ground testing equipment, possibly a laser. . . . . . .

 

An seismograph would be interesting as they said in the article, geology on Venus is an huge mystery. 
Wind and add temperature as its easy. 

Power will be an issue anyway, you could make some battery who would work, this would be low power anyway, if you use an camera it might not be designed to last long, you will be done taking pictures after some time same with surface analyze. 

Now because of the dense atmosphere wind power and even sails would work very well, you would not need much wind to run the instruments in the soup. 

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I could only presume pneumatic or hydraulic would be somewhat more power-hungry. Also the only way to transmit message back would still be electromagnetical, soo...

In any case, going down there is basically a race against heat transfer. I guess some "better insulation" should be somewhat enough.

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3 hours ago, PB666 said:

"The pie is finite," says Bob Grimm, a geophysicist at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, and chairman of NASA's Venus Exploration Analysis Group. "If we want to improve Venus's share, we have to have some kind of initial mission to get people excited again." -http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/armed-tough-computer-chips-scientists-are-ready-return-hell-venus

Well, if you want exciting try blasted out of a capsule with a pressure 92 times earth surface and a temperature 462'C (hot spots go up to 827'C). You will be ablaze with excitement!!!!! Any volunteers?

Sorry but i never meant to say humans just probes.

Edited by NSEP

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3 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Now because of the dense atmosphere wind power and even sails would work very well, you would not need much wind to run the instruments in the soup. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

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3 hours ago, YNM said:

In any case, going down there is basically a race against heat transfer. I guess some "better insulation" should be somewhat enough.

The research presented in the above video is specifically directed at developing electronic components that work even at the surface temperature of Venus, and thereby removing the need for insulation as was the case for the Russian probes in the 70s.

If we just want to keep using our normal electronic on Venus, we need to prevent them from heating up to more than 150 °C. That is simply impossible for any extended period of time in the Venusian hell even with the most ridiculous amount of insulation.

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5 hours ago, magnemoe said:

An seismograph would be interesting as they said in the article, geology on Venus is an huge mystery. 
Wind and add temperature as its easy. 

Power will be an issue anyway, you could make some battery who would work, this would be low power anyway, if you use an camera it might not be designed to last long, you will be done taking pictures after some time same with surface analyze. 

Now because of the dense atmosphere wind power and even sails would work very well, you would not need much wind to run the instruments in the soup. 

Yes but you need an alternator, and the alternator needs to work at 462'C.

 

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Silly. There is nothing on the venusian surface that we don't already have on earth, except an survivable temperature and pressure.

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4 hours ago, Tullius said:

If we just want to keep using our normal electronic on Venus, we need to prevent them from heating up to more than 150 °C. That is simply impossible for any extended period of time in the Venusian hell even with the most ridiculous amount of insulation.

I was thinking multiple vacuum layers, with the sensors transmitting low power RF to reach the inner "core" and the inner core transmitting low power RF to reach the external transmitter again. Unless I'm mistaken on how much not simple an instrument is !

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8 hours ago, PB666 said:

Silly. There is nothing on the venusian surface that we don't already have on earth, except an survivable temperature and pressure.

As you can see, this animation was refering to the sail and energy theme, rather than magic crystals.
If I put a windmill picture as an illustration, would you presume that I'm suggesting to farm Venusian crops?

8 hours ago, PB666 said:

Yes but you need an alternator, and the alternator needs to work at 462'C.

Forget the alternator.
You need a radiator for this alternator, warmed up to ~1000°C and either radiating right near the device being cooled, or be placed at the back side of a hill (and requiring a whole system to transfer the waste heat).
So, about alternator we should worry a little later.

P.S.
To make plans about the Venus conquest we really need moar data about its undergraound conditions.
If it's cooler, say, at 50 m below the ground, things look much easier.
(Then we even can found an underground colony there, do the colonists like it, or no.)

Edited by kerbiloid

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12 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

As you can see, this animation was refering to the sail and energy theme, rather than magic crystals.
If I put a windmill picture as an illustration, would you presume that I'm suggesting to farm Venusian crops?

Forget the alternator.
You need a radiator for this alternator, warmed up to ~1000°C and either radiating right near the device being cooled, or be placed at the back side of a hill (and requiring a whole system to transfer the waste heat).
So, about alternator we should worry a little later.

P.S.
To make plans about the Venus conquest we really need moar data about its undergraound conditions.
If it's cooler, say, at 50 m below the ground, things look much easier.
(Then we even can found an underground colony there, do the colonists like it, or no.)

Another handwaving argument to ignore.

It would be hotter underground than cooler. Heat increases with pressure for example if you dig 2 miles under the permafrost the earth is uncomfortably hot. At the center of Venus there is residual heat from gravitational energy provided during accretion as well as heat from radioisotopic decay. Thus the gradient begins at ground level and increases to the core.

 

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5 minutes ago, PB666 said:

Another handwaving argument to ignore.

Says the topicstarter of "how should we colonize Mercury with modern technologies" thread?

1 minute ago, PB666 said:

It would be hotter underground than cooler. Heat increases with pressure for example if you dig 2 miles under the permafrost the earth is uncomfortably hot.

If you dig 2 meters under the ground the earth is uncomfortably cold.
(Though, definitely we shouldn't hope much, as daily temperature difference on Venus look not significant, so the underground wouldn't cool during the night.)

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11 hours ago, PB666 said:

Yes but you need an alternator, and the alternator needs to work at 462'C.

Sounds easier than electronic, you are not after much power just enough to power some instruments and a transmitter. 

Now one idea might be to use wind for movement, not so much sail, think tumbleweed. 
Still sensors might well be main problem, getting advanced sensors who can handle the high temperature. 
Looks like we can get an short duration probe with advanced sensors or one who can survive for some time with simple ones. 

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9 hours ago, YNM said:

I was thinking multiple vacuum layers, with the sensors transmitting low power RF to reach the inner "core" and the inner core transmitting low power RF to reach the external transmitter again. Unless I'm mistaken on how much not simple an instrument is !

Even with multiple insulation layers with vacuum, there will still be heat transfer (due to black body radiation). And you would also have to deal with the electronics inside generating heat, which you would need to evacuate.

Better insulation might extend the stay on the surface from a few hours to a few days, but you are still severely limited in time. And the heat production by the electronics needs active cooling, which would also cover the not perfect insulation, but you are relying on the cooling to work flawlessly.

Also, unless you would be using vacuum tubes, you will need transistors for the RF receivers and emitters. Hence, at some point you need heat resistant transistors (or just let some cables pass between the inner and outer insulation).

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7 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Says the topicstarter of "how should we colonize Mercury with modern technologies" thread?

If you dig 2 meters under the ground the earth is uncomfortably cold.
(Though, definitely we shouldn't hope much, as daily temperature difference on Venus look not significant, so the underground wouldn't cool during the night.)

Because a colony on Mercury makes more sense than Venus. For one the average surface temperature of Mercury is 100'C lower than that of Venus. 

Surface temperature in some regions much lower.
Surface pressure better
No Sulfur dioxides and trioxides in the atmosphere.
Water on surface of permanently colder areas of Mercury.
All the power you want is just a solar panel, transformer and HV extension cord away.

We know how to get to Mercury and land, its just a big version and big dV of the moon. We have no idea how to land on Venus and to do so would be insane. We know how to land on Mars but there is no power source on Mars that allows us to do the things we need to do to survive.

Earth is not Venus. Ground temperature is influenced by transpiration and evaporation and is keep moderate by grasses and trees.

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