Ahhh, my old Nemesis: the Reroot Node tool

[Hotel26]

TL;DR: I've done something perverse and now I can't re-root the vehicle for attachment to a launcher in the VAB.

I built a vehicle and, behold, I saw that it was beautiful!  Well, grubby and sweaty with my labor, more aptly.  I afraid I am going to have to rebuild it from scratch.

It had an Okto and a Sr. Dock on one end and a claw at the other.  One can control from the Klaw while using it, but I particularly also wanted to relocate the root Okto away fro the Sr Dock (as it was impeding docking).

In method 1, I added a new Okto and removed the first.  Worked fine until I tried to attach my vehicle to a launcher in the VAB (via Merge).

In method 2, I used gizmos to simply turn the whole body of the craft (except the Okto) around and then shifted it into place so that the Okto appeared at the desired end.  Same problem in the VAB.

I tried using a Subassembly instead.  No go.

Obviously a job for the Node Reroot tool!

Problem is that when I select the pair of nodes (Senior Dock followed by the Okto), to reroot, the Okto gets itself the red outline that indicates it is no longer part of the ship.

Actually, I notice this is present as soon as I import it to the VAB with Merge.  (Thus, the fight is probably not with the evil Reroot Node tool, but with one of its minions.)

I guess I will have to rebuild the vehicle from scratch; not so many parts; good practice: but I'd really like to know how to defeat (or avoid) the Reroot Node tool, next time we battle.

The craft file is Gimlet

 

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Hotel26

[Draalo]

Add a new part, a fuel tank for example, and make this the new root.

Then grab the rest and make that a new subassembly.

[Hotel26]

Pretty fast rebuild.  I loaded the craft (taking care to set/save into a temp file to prevent overwrites), slightly exploded it with gizmos; made a parts diagram; then just built it over clean from scratch.  Only 26 parts...

See if it works now (and will report).

Still a mystery to be solved. 

@Draalo, thanks!  I will try that now, too.

The enemy must be defeated! 

[Hotel26]

@Draalo, your magic is strong, sir.  But I could not work it...

I could only add a tank to the small port used for skycrane delivery.  I was able to make that port the root and attach it to the launcher, but not then able to reroot, detach and re-attach using the Senior port for the launch stack.

I believe verily this craft, this Gimlet, is cursed via some spell so foul that none know its inutterable name!

Update: succeeded with my complete rebuild.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Hotel26

[Geschosskopf]

8 hours ago, Hotel26 said:

I tried using a Subassembly instead.  No go.

Obviously a job for the Node Reroot tool!

You seem to have a misunderstanding about how the whole subassembly thing and reroot tool work.  These 2 things are not alternative methods for solving the same problem, they are 2 parts to the same whole, single method.  IOW:

• In general, there is no reason to ever use the reroot tool unless you're making a subassembly.  There are a few exceptions, but you don't often encounter them.
• In general, the only way to make a subassembly that works as you desire is to use the reroot tool when creating the subassembly. Again, there are exceptions but generally a subassembly MUST be rerooted so that it has its attachment node in the desired location to fit onto the main ship.

I have NEVER used the Merge function.  It seems bugged to me (or I myself don't understand its purpose and how to use it).  So I can't help you there, other than to recommend not using it  

Anyway, if it understand your problem correctly (pics would help), your situation is as follows

• Mission payload ship:   Sr. Docking Port - Okto - (some other parts) - Klaw.  You want to change this to Sr. Docking Port - (some other parts) - Okto - (other parts) - Klaw
• Lifter ship to attach the mission payload to.
• Desired result:  Mission payload on the lifter with the payload's docking port able to function.

I would approach the problem as follows:

1. Open the payload ship in the editor
2. Re-arrange the parts as need without touching the Okto
   • Remove the Sr. Docking port and set it off to the side. 
   • Break the ship somewhere between the Okto and the Klaw and set section with the Klaw to the side, leaving 1 or more parts still attached to that end of the Okto.
   • Move one or more parts that are attached to the Okto to the other end of the Okto where the Sr. Port used to be.
   • Attach the Sr. Port to the parts you just moved
   • Attach the remaining parts and Klaw back to that end of the ship.
3. Select ANY new part (such as a short box girder) and attach it to the docking end of the Sr. Port.  This part will NOT be part of the finished product, it's just a temporary thing to help create the payload subassembly.
4. Use the reroot tool make this new part the root.
   • Select the Reroot Tool
   • Click on the Sr. Port
   • Click on the new, temporary part.  This will make the temporary part the new root of the payload.
5. Page to the Subassembly tab of the editor.
6. Clicking on the Sr. Port, remove the entire payload from the temporary root part, drag it all to the subassembly save box, and save it.  The resulting subassembly, when used later, will have only 1 attachment node, on the Sr. Port where it was attached to the temporary root part.  Getting this node in that location is the whole purpose of using the reroot tool.  Once you have the subassembly saved, you now have 2 versions of the payload, the original file where you built it from scratch and the subassembly file.  From now on, you'll be using the subassembly file, not the original.
7. Close the payload ship file.  Save it if you want to, or not, it doesn't matter.  You won't be using this file again.
8. Open the lifter file in the editor.
9. Page to the Subassembly tab.
10. Select your payload subassembly
11. Attach the payload subassembly to the lifter.
12. Done.

 

 

[Hotel26]

Thanks for your time and expertise with that answer, sir.

Craft file was linked in the original, on the last line.

I need to reload it myself (from that link) because it's entirely possible I was using Reroot improperly.

What I did get out of this exercise was how to make a diagram of a design in such a way that you can recreate it very quickly and accurately.  I have a number of old craft I really have to rebuild from scratch.

Thanks for the help.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Hotel26

[Hotel26]

All right.  I think I can express my confusion about the Re-root tool succinctly.  Why does the tool need you to click two nodes?  If the second click is the new root, what is the first click for and why is it needed?

(I have thought until now that one node is going to be the new part-tree root and the other is going to be the designated attachment point.)

[Rocket In My Pocket]

10 minutes ago, Hotel26 said:

All right.  I think I can express my confusion about the Re-root tool succinctly.  Why does the tool need you to click two nodes?  If the second click is the new root, what is the first click for and why is it needed?

(I have thought until now that one node is going to be the new part-tree root and the other is going to be the designated attachment point.)

Afaik the first click is redundant and is a left over from a planned functionality that would allow you to click "ghosted" parts and/or manipulate multiple separate craft at once in the editor.

It currently serves no actual purpose that I'm aware of.

[Spricigo]

What you need to notice is that the parts are linked in a tree hierarchy, . The only way to change a link between the parts is by placing it in a different way, rotating/offsetting can't change it. Reroot may change what parts is higher in the hierarchy but the link itself is maintained.

The issue is if there is an open spot to place the next part. Your idea is to attach the next part (which happens to be part of a subassemble) to the docking port. Unfortunatelly the node is not available, you placed the probecore there (or placed the node at the probecore, same effect). We need to remove the probecore to use the node. If the porbecore is bellow the docking port in the hierarchy we can just remove it, otherwise we first change the root(the docking port need to be closer in the hierarchy to it than the probecore).

Another point is noticing what the next part is. If our subassemble start with a part with no open nodes, no amount of open nodes on our craft will help us.

 

 

[Geonovast]

I've always known about the re-root tool, and it was a bit frustrating at first because I had to save what I was working on, open up the sub assembly separately, re-root, re-save sub assembly, then open the project back up and hope it worked...until I accidentally realized I was doing it all wrong.

Once I realized you could re-root sub assemblies on the fly while they were red and translucent sitting next to the craft you're working on, it became one of my favorite tools.

4 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Afaik the first click is redundant and is a left over from a planned functionality that would allow you to click "ghosted" parts and/or manipulate multiple separate craft at once in the editor.

It currently serves no actual purpose that I'm aware of.

Well, except that functionality is there.  You can have several assemblies floating around and you can re-root them separately.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

59 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

Well, except that functionality is there.  You can have several assemblies floating around and you can re-root them separately.

Nice! They must have fixed it when I wasn't looking. It never used to work right for me.

[linuxgurugamer]

5 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Afaik the first click is redundant and is a left over from a planned functionality that would allow you to click "ghosted" parts and/or manipulate multiple separate craft at once in the editor.

It currently serves no actual purpose that I'm aware of.

Editor extensions has that fixed. Ie. One click only