KSP Weekly: The Lunar Greenhouse

[050644zf]

Introducing the Lunar Palace 1 in Beihang University, an experiment trying to simulate a sustainable environment on the moon. It's a "real" lunar greenhouse

Edited April 21, 2018 by 050644zf

[LoSBoL]

It's just a delay for a week...

If it was months due to fixing new feature bugs I'd definitely would be on the fence as well, but a week? 

Yes, there is an urge to fix the glaring bugs, but I can also see that there seems to be an urge to give MH more content so people buy it. 

I can understand as to why bug fixes and new content benefits from being released separately, but then again, I wouldn't be happy if I'd have to keep updating version after version after version. Not to mention mod creators having to keep up with dropping patch after patch.

I'm happy to wait a week. 

[klgraham1013]

57 minutes ago, basic.syntax said:

The mission builder was an entirely appropriate choice for the expansion. A way to make formal challenges out of what players were doing in that section of the forums. The mission builder earned higher marks in PC  Gamer's review, than the new parts. 

Game reviews in 2018.  lolsokerbal

53 minutes ago, Fireheart318 said:

Two things -

1 - Are we going to be able to make and place our own launch sites?

2 - I feel like Squad/T2/??? is trying to create stock versions of mods to replace mods so they can eventually be banned. PLEASE tell me this isn't the case!

It's not the case.

Edited April 21, 2018 by klgraham1013

[adsii1970]

7 hours ago, Ger_space said:

You don't like my mod? 

Actually, I do... if I could figure out how to use the thing compatible with what I want to do. Last time I installed it (the version which works for 1.3.0), I couldn't get rid of the static air craft carriers and could not find what I needed to delete to get rid of them. But the rest of the mod is pretty neat and versatile. I learned real quick that most places on Kerbin aren't as flat as they appear...

[Rejected Spawn]

Can someone explain something to me? I keep seeing the argument that the parts added in MH were pointless because similar ones exist in mods. Are these people saying Squad can't add parts if someone has made them as a mod? That would limit further content options to adding what exactly, warping pineapples that randomly draw smiley faces on asteroids? Also why are so many on this forum obsessed with using mods and just blatantly assume the majority of players want to use them?

This may come as a shock to you but there are in fact millions of players who simply don't have the desire to use mods in ANY games and none of them need to explain themselves. If you're curious about examples anyway some common reasons are a desire to work with what the game provides (usually but not always including DLC) because the player desires the challenge, valid concerns about compatibility such as a mod becoming outdated or not being able to share designs with friends that don't have the exact same mod setup, not wanting to mess around with game files due to a simple lack of interest in learning how to do it correctly, and so on. This forum has a high percentage of mod users but the average of those interested enough in KSP to bother making a forum account here differs from the total average KSP player.

Before someone jumps at me claiming I have some weird hate for mods: I think mods are great. I'll still NEVER mod a single game that isn't completely impossible to play without mods. KSP is so easy to play I had no idea what "DeltaV" meant until long after I'd sent rockets anywhere I wanted, yet someone jumped me saying "you wouldn't want to calculate this manually" as if using mods to tell the exact range of rockets was mandatory - while I was using middle school math without a calculator to get a general estimate and then usually got anywhere on the first try. I honestly don't like the mentality going on in this forum, there are too many here forcing their own play styles on others when in reality KSP can accomodate a huge range of play styles, the biggest problem group being those assuming everyone wants to use mods.

[klgraham1013]

29 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

It's just a delay for a week

...but it's not just a week.  As I've said in a few threads, landing spacecraft is one of the main gameplay loops of KSP...and landing legs have been exploding for how long?  A core feature being broken should be ardently avoided.

[LoSBoL]

Just now, klgraham1013 said:

...but it's not just a week.  As I've said in a few threads, landing spacecraft is one of the main gameplay loops of KSP...and landing legs have been exploding for how long?  A core feature being broken should be ardently avoided.

Oh, sorry, you are right, I wasn't clear enough. I was talking about the patch delay with a week. 

It was all rushed, 1.4.2 should have been the patch that fixed all bugs indeed, not introduce even more bugs. I can understand a day one patch and quick fix patches within a couple of weeks. I don't think the 1.4.3 release was initially planned to be a bug fix, but became one.

[steve_v]

6 minutes ago, Rejected Spawn said:

I keep seeing the argument that the parts added in MH were pointless because similar ones exist in mods. Are these people saying Squad can't add parts if someone has made them as a mod?

Squad can do whatever they like, and so can you. I think adding parts in a paid DLC that are already available in existing mods is pointless, because I share none of your reasons for not using them. That is simply my opinion, I'm not going to pay for something that the community has already done a better job of. I think Squads effort could be better spent elsewhere.

 

8 minutes ago, Rejected Spawn said:

Also why are so many on this forum obsessed with using mods and just blatantly assume the majority of players want to use them?

I have some cake, it's tasty and it's free. You don't want a piece? Really? OK, suit yourself.
Use mods, don't use mods, whatever.

 

13 minutes ago, Rejected Spawn said:

This may come as a shock to you but there are in fact millions of players who simply don't have the desire to use mods in ANY games and none of them need to explain themselves.

I'd ask the same question of you: Why do you believe that those who do desire to use mods need to explain themselves?
 

11 minutes ago, Rejected Spawn said:

the biggest problem group being those assuming everyone wants to use mods.

I have never seen anyone here try to force another player to use a mod. Ever.

 

 

[DeliriumTrigger]

5 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

...but it's not just a week.  As I've said in a few threads, landing spacecraft is one of the main gameplay loops of KSP...and landing legs have been exploding for how long?  A core feature being broken should be ardently avoided.

Three weeks and four days.  Almost a month.  And apparently the fix is done, but we have to wait so they can fix a new launch site.    smdh

18 minutes ago, Rejected Spawn said:

Can someone explain something to me? I keep seeing the argument that the parts added in MH were pointless because similar ones exist in mods. Are these people saying Squad can't add parts if someone has made them as a mod? That would limit further content options to adding what exactly, warping pineapples that randomly draw smiley faces on asteroids? Also why are so many on this forum obsessed with using mods and just blatantly assume the majority of players want to use them?

I don't think anyone here has a problem with them adding new parts.  It's mostly the whole rushing the release and introducing a bunch of new bugs in the process that make it so you can't even use the new parts without either dealing with aero and landing leg bugs, reverting to a previous version, or breaking out a text editor and applying a half-assed fix.

I happily paid for the DLC because the less mods I have to install and wait for updates for, the better.  But it's pretty crappy having all these shiny new parts to play with and not being able to use them in anything but sandbox because I don't want bugs interfering with a career game.

[LoSBoL]

2 minutes ago, steve_v said:

I have never seen anyone here try to force another player to use a mod. Ever.

Next to 'where is the D/V meter?', the most pronounced sentence on the forum is 'there is a mod for that!'

Now it isn't actually forcing one to use mods, and could even be considered a helpful comment, but on the other hand it does end further discussion if something should be stock or not. And its not really helpful to someone who plays modless.

[StrandedonEarth]

I'm one of those who prefers to wait and get it right than get patch after patch after patch. As for mods, I use a number of info mods but I'm not big on part mods because it limits the cross-version compatibly of .craft files. KIS/KAS being the exception for those occasions when a craft needs to be modified after launch, for one reason or another (like that time I mounted the drills too low). That's one mod function that I really believe should be added to stock, because it adds so much more to gameplay.

Sorry for posting this again, but it is just so fitting...

[steve_v]

4 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

Next to 'where is the D/V meter?', the most pronounced sentence on the forum is 'there is a mod for that!'

WRT delta-v in particular, there are a great many helpful posts describing how to calculate this without mods. Without actually counting, I'd say the answers to "where is the ΔV meter" are about 40% detailed equations or links to such, 40% "KER shows it",  10% "MechJeb does too", and 10% "Just eyeball it".

 

4 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

Now it isn't actually forcing one to use mods, and could even be considered a helpful comment, but on the other hand it does end further discussion if something should be stock or not. And its not really helpful to someone who plays modless.

Perhaps, but given that we appear to have very little ability to influence what goes into the stock game here, it's often the only helpful answer that can be given.
There are a great many posts arguing for a ΔV readout to be included as stock functionality, going back as far as I can remember. It still hasn't happened (see "better uses of Squads effort" above).
The vast majority of people who post here seem to use mods to some extent anyway, probably because they've had no luck getting the things they want into the game.

[StrandedonEarth]

5 minutes ago, steve_v said:

majority of people who post here

And that would be the key. People who don't post here probably don't use any mods at all, hence the need to upgrade the game for that group.

It would be interesting to know the ratio between Forum users compared to non-forum users (or mod users vs non-mod users) since we have no idea which group is the majority.

[DeliriumTrigger]

1 minute ago, StrandedonEarth said:

And that would be the key. People who don't post here probably don't use any mods at all, hence the need to upgrade the game for that group.

It would be interesting to know the ratio between Forum users compared to non-forum users (or mod users vs non-mod users) since we have no idea which group is the majority.

Well to be fair, there are plenty of people playing this game with mods that don't post here.  I had the game for two years and played with mods almost the whole time but only made an account here a few months ago so I could submit a bug report for a mod.   The game has a pretty large and active community on reddit so I just never bothered before then.  

[basic.syntax]

6 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

It would be interesting to know the ratio between Forum users compared to non-forum users

Let's make a poll!

(lol)

[Dark Lion]

You remember that time your friend called you up all excited about their new self-barbered haircut... then, next you see them, you burst out laughing at the ridiculous mop on their head? STOP DOING THAT TO ME @SQUAD !!!! I'm not gonna lie to you okay? You're NOT cute. This is NOT funny. 

GIVE ME MY GAME BACK. I BOUGHT IT FAIR AND SQUARE.

The only time I should ever find my rage-mode justifiable in your game should coincide with nothing less than its challenges. When I fail them. Not when you make them impossible to play.

GIVE ME MY GAME BACK. I RECOMMENDED THIS GAME TO MY FRIENDS!
...and now they think I'm an idiot.
...and I'm starting to think my friends are right.
I'm losing my patience.

As much as I have enjoyed this game previous to the DLC, this next patch will ultimately decide whether I continue paying any attention to Squad or its products.
No, Squad, I don't blame T2; I BLAME YOU. But, while we're on the subject, it's interesting how dramatically public relations has changed since that contract came to light...

**If you're a forum member reading this: please stop talking about mods and be heard from about your questions, comments, concerns and suggestions about the game or its DLC. Mods aren't really Squad's responsibility and are irrelevant anyway. We want the game fixed. The mods aren't the problem. Please remember what you want in a mod is like a cherry on the pie. That's fine and tasty garnish, of course! Unless the pie is ashes... then your cherry is more like a tombstone: hard to enjoy.

[StrandedonEarth]

4 minutes ago, nanobug said:

Well to be fair, there are plenty of people playing this game with mods that don't post here.  I had the game for two years and played with mods almost the whole time but only made an account here a few months ago so I could submit a bug report for a mod.   The game has a pretty large and active community on reddit so I just never bothered before then.  

Hmmm, and I don't bother with Reddit. Fair enough

[steve_v]

Just now, StrandedonEarth said:

People who don't post here probably don't use any mods at all

Do they not post here because they don't use mods, or do they not use mods because they don't post here?
If these non-forum-posters want non-mod solutions, perhaps they should ask. Probably by posting...
This whole argument is really very silly.

4 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

It would be interesting to know the ratio between Forum users compared to non-forum users

Hmm, that would indeed be interesting... However, asking how many non-forum users there are on the forum may not yield very useful data.

[DeliriumTrigger]

5 minutes ago, Dark Lion said:

<snip>

Lol.

The pie was pretty yummy before.  This is more like the bakery advertising some new DLC cherries to put on top of your pie only to find that they filled the cherries with pubic hair and added nitroglycerin to the pie crust (landing legs).

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by nanobug

[steve_v]

5 minutes ago, Dark Lion said:

This is NOT funny.

I disagree, your post is hilarious. A largely justified outpouring of rage to be sure, but also hilarious.

[DeliriumTrigger]

5 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Hmmm, and I don't bother with Reddit. Fair enough

I like it over there.  It's like the picture book version of the forums.  Everyone shares screenshot galleries of their successes and failures, they do a weekly challenge.   I imagine the overlap is pretty substantial, but just as you never bother with reddit there are plenty of people who just use reddit as a catch all forum for everything they're interested in and don't venture out very often.

[klgraham1013]

19 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

It would be interesting to know the ratio between Forum users compared to non-forum users (or mod users vs non-mod users) since we have no idea which group is the majority.

I think we can be pretty confident that forum users are far less than 1% of the user base.  Mod users is probably higher for KSP than most PC mod-friendly games, but still not the majority.

[LoSBoL]

16 minutes ago, Dark Lion said:

You remember that time your friend called you up all excited about their new self-barbered haircut... then, next you see them, you burst out laughing at the ridiculous mop on their head? STOP DOING THAT TO ME @SQUAD !!!! I'm not gonna lie to you okay? You're NOT cute. This is NOT funny. 

GIVE ME MY GAME BACK. I BOUGHT IT FAIR AND SQUARE.

 

With the risk of getting my head bitten off... 

If the old version 1.3.1 being stable and relatively bug free, you could stick with that until 1.4.x get fixed and becomes enjoyable?

Edited April 21, 2018 by LoSBoL

[klgraham1013]

11 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Hmmm, and I don't bother with Reddit.

Good life choices.

[DeliriumTrigger]

3 minutes ago, LoSBoL said:

With the risk of getting my head bitten off... 

If the old version 1.3.1 being stable and relatively bug free, you could stick with that until 1.4.x get fixed and becomes enjoyable?

Certainly a practical solution but really not acceptable for a game that's supposedly out of early access and selling DLC now.

3 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

Good life choices.

How do I downvote on ksp forums