ferram4

[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

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I seem to be getting a bug involving B9's procedural wing addon. It appears voxelization is not happening more on one wing than the other, causing that wing to lift and not the other.

Crzyrndm posted recently with the same symptoms for B9 Procedural Wings. I don't know for certain it is fixed, but see the following:

On the voxelization errors on certain parts: They're all the same issue, I just need to re-implement the fix from before I ported to 1.0. Already fixed in the dev build, everything should be fine.

I'm not sure if that is the same issue that B9 PW is seeing, though. From what I read, it may be an issue with the way B9 wings are put together.

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@Enceos: Then something is yelling at FAR to update far too regularly, unless the voxelization broke. However, it seems like the current reported issues don't have the log spam, so if you're on Ferri, then it's not that. Odds are it's something else causing it, and I can't fix it because it's not my code.

@ArchmageNydia: Known issue in pWings. I suspect it's the orientation of the mesh / collider faces, since FAR uses those to get much better info on the exact contours of the vehicle. It's something special about how they're set up. Not much I can do without reverting changes that fixed a lot of other issues; make sure you're running the latest version of pWings, and if that doesn't fix it, wait until the fix shows up on their side.

@Recon777: Unfortunately, I didn't plan for someone deleting the very first entry in the menu. What you want to do to bring things back is to go into your FAR folder, find CustomFARAeroStress.cfg and delete it. And then don't mess with debug options unless you know what you're doing. Ah, who am I kidding, I'll probably just remove the aerostress and atm composition tabs from the debug menu and call it a day. Anyone who actually wants to change configs can go into the configs themselves and it'll keep everyone else safe from screwing things up when they think they're perfectly safe (hint: when you mess with debug options, you never are).

Also, progress report: I finally wrestled an equation for pressure coefficient across a slender vehicle out of linearized supersonic potential flow, so I should be able to use that for more accurate application of drag to transonic and supersonic vehicles. I'm tempted to maybe display the curve on the vehicle in the overlay, but I don't know how crowded that will get and if that's really such a good idea. Might be interesting to have anyway.

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@Enceos: Then something is yelling at FAR to update far too regularly, unless the voxelization broke. However, it seems like the current reported issues don't have the log spam, so if you're on Ferri, then it's not that. Odds are it's something else causing it, and I can't fix it because it's not my code.

What is the current list of triggers for voxelization update? Knowing this I could track down the potential culprit.

Edited by Enceos

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Anything that forces an animation to occur on a part, such as deploying landing gear or a solar array; this does not include the orientation of the array or control surfaces or whatever changing in flight. Other than that, anything that fires OnVesselWasModified, OnVesselChange, OnVesselLoad, etc. constantly would also cause it.

Make sure all your mods are up to date, maybe it's already been fixed.

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@ArchmageNydia: ... make sure you're running the latest version of pWings...

Won't help, still haven't been able to identify why the inversion has occurred (The plugin does move vertices but it's all done relative to the part orientation)

RE: Crowded overlay

Toggles for what is being displayed?

EDIT

RE: Pwings, I have found a (very hacky) fix that will sort things out for now.

Edited by Crzyrndm

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@Recon777: Unfortunately, I didn't plan for someone deleting the very first entry in the menu. What you want to do to bring things back is to go into your FAR folder, find CustomFARAeroStress.cfg and delete it. And then don't mess with debug options unless you know what you're doing. Ah, who am I kidding, I'll probably just remove the aerostress and atm composition tabs from the debug menu and call it a day. Anyone who actually wants to change configs can go into the configs themselves and it'll keep everyone else safe from screwing things up when they think they're perfectly safe (hint: when you mess with debug options, you never are).

@Ferram4: Well, you could just remove the [-] button which breaks the window, maybe. Why are they even there? Also, I did try deleting everything. I even uninstalled the entire mod, removed the FAR folder, restarted KSP, loaded up a save, quit, reinstalled FAR, started KSP again and loaded my save. The window was still bugged. I did this several times yesterday with no success, but now I did the exact same thing today and for some reason it worked. Now that the window is working again, I will uncheck "Allow Aero-structural failures".

Here's the situation for me. I'm trying to launch my first commsats into orbit because I have RT installed and need to do that before any unmanned missions will work at all. I built a very simple satellite launcher. Just the OKTO core with 8 solar panels on it, four disk shaped batteries below the core, then a T400 fuel tank with more solar panels and a couple antennas, then the LV909 and stack separator, four more T400 fuel tanks, the Swivel engine, four AVT1 winglets, and two Hammer boosters with radial decouplers. I even put a Mk16 parachute on top of the probe core in case that helped aerodynamics.

JpbwN5Y.png

Boosters burn for 15 seconds and get the craft up to 5km or so, then I very gradually ease up the speed. No matter how gentle I am, even without doing any turning at all, the rocket disintegrates due to aero stress by about 45 seconds into launch. If the mod is going to tear apart probe launches like this, maybe the mod needs to allow fairings to be unlocked much sooner. Nobody really launches probes to space with exposed antennas an solar panels clinging to the sides, right? I'm not even sure if that's the reason the rocket came apart. Is there any sort of log that the mod produces which explains what the failure was from? Is there any way to predict failures prior to launch? Sorry, I'm fairly new to the game and even newer to mods, so I'm just looking for basic understanding here.

[edit]

Wow, actually even with "Allow Aero-structural Failures" unchecked, my rocket still disintegrates. What's going on?

[edit 2]

Whoa! Now my menu window is bugged again! I didn't even touch any settings, but it's back to being a blank window. I deleted the .cfg specifically like you said and that doesn't fix it.

Uninstalled the mod and removed the whole folder entirely. Reinstalled the mod and it is STILL bugged! This is what my debug menu window looks like:

NjxQ8ID.png

Edited by Recon777

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Wow, actually even with "Allow Aero-structural Failures" unchecked, my rocket still disintegrates. What's going on?

I just checked with a stock + FAR (aero failures enabled) with that rocket and had no issues (even without throttling back, which given the first and third stage TWR's I normally would have). Your problem is coming from somewhere else

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Anything that forces an animation to occur on a part, such as deploying landing gear or a solar array; this does not include the orientation of the array or control surfaces or whatever changing in flight. Other than that, anything that fires OnVesselWasModified, OnVesselChange, OnVesselLoad, etc. constantly would also cause it.

Make sure all your mods are up to date, maybe it's already been fixed.

Looks like the issue maker here is Infernal Robotics. It uses a different kind of animation, not sure if this can be fixed at all.

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I just checked with a stock + FAR (aero failures enabled) with that rocket and had no issues (even without throttling back, which given the first and third stage TWR's I normally would have). Your problem is coming from somewhere else

If that's the case, then why do they launch just fine if I uninstall FAR?

Here's the mods I have installed. I do think there's some which I'll need to remove since I'm getting occasional random crashes now and I hear that KSP is notorious for memory problems. Not sure what the main culprit is. Thinking "outer planets" probably.

HDIVYBp.png

Edited by Recon777

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If that's the case, then why do they launch just fine if I uninstall FAR?

Here's the mods I have installed. I do think there's some which I'll need to remove since I'm getting occasional random crashes now and I hear that KSP is notorious for memory problems. Not sure what the main culprit is. Thinking "outer planets" probably.

http://i.imgur.com/HDIVYBp.png

Are you exploding at around 6km altitude? If so, your problem is most likely remotetech. I had a similar problem caused by remotetech + Kerbal OS integration back in 0.90. Essentially, KSP does something weird when you pass 6000m or so. RT was interacting with KOS (Edit: and perhaps FAR, I never tried it without FAR installed) in a way that caused the KOS computer module to suddenly get stuck in place (as in its velocity would suddenly become 0m/s) when that change occurred, and the resulting forces would tear the ship apart. IIRC the problem was documented in the KOS thread, but I don't know whether they ever got around to fixing it.

Mechjeb probably uses a lot of the same code that KOS uses when it comes to controlling your craft, so I suggest uninstalling RT and mechjeb and seeing if the problem persists.

Edited by Nerd1000
Added something about FAR

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Are you exploding at around 6km altitude?

Nope. If you look at the video I put in my post up above, it blows up around 2400m right about the time I separate the spent Hammers. Though, on occasion I did make it a bit farther with the liquid fuel engine before it blew.

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@Recon777: It's breaking because you're not actually deleting the right file. I've checked this, it works fine. And given that it's apparently such a problem to have the debug menu that lets you edit the aero stress configs in-game, I'm just going to remove them and solve the problem quickly. I can't exactly get rid of the "remove template" button without making it impossible to remove templates; just don't delete the selected template if it's the first one in the list, that's what breaks it. So since the very existence of this section of the debug menu is a problem, I'll just remove it entirely. As for your continued issues, considering that it seems completely erratic for no apparent reason, I suspect that either something else is messing with the FAR files or that you're continuing to mess with it even though you already know that it'll cause issues. If you insist on reinstalling FAR, actually reinstall it by uninstalling then installing again, don't just overwrite.

Now, your rocket coming apart isn't FAR, because I can't reproduce it with an identical design. Full thrust, staying on prograde, hits Mach 0.95 at 3 km or so and doesn't want to accelerate past there, but it certainly doesn't come apart. So if it requires FAR to cause the issue, then something else is interfering. Given the extreme issues you're having, perhaps you'd be well-served by posting your output_log.txt and full reproduction steps.

@Enceos: IIRC, they're sending events manually. In that case, they need to only send the events when the parts move, not all the time.

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@ferram

I've managed to get FAR to voxelise B9 P-wings correctly in any orientation (without breaking them visually) by double siding the meshes. Only inverting the meshes when they would cause the oversized voxelisation makes surfaces transparent when they shouldn't be (as expected).

Is the double siding likely to break anything for FAR?

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I'm experiencing an issue I haven't seen yet in this thread, apologies if I've missed it. After a craft reaches an altitude above approximately 140km, it will experience no drag upon reentry. I have included a screenshot with the FAR panel open to show drag stats.

The same issue seems to happen even with only FAR (and its dependancies) installed. gyncSru.png

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Hi

Can somebody explain the Far Debug option menu settings?

What about difficulties on Transonic drag settings and Voxel details settings ?

What about Atm composition, as I don't see nothing on Celestial body atmospheric properties when I select Kerbin or Eve or whatever....? Just see constant values for Gaz viscosity and Ref Temp for viscosity.....

What is important here to set properly?

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@Recon777: It's breaking because you're not actually deleting the right file. I've checked this, it works fine. And given that it's apparently such a problem to have the debug menu that lets you edit the aero stress configs in-game, I'm just going to remove them and solve the problem quickly. I can't exactly get rid of the "remove template" button without making it impossible to remove templates; just don't delete the selected template if it's the first one in the list, that's what breaks it. So since the very existence of this section of the debug menu is a problem, I'll just remove it entirely. As for your continued issues, considering that it seems completely erratic for no apparent reason, I suspect that either something else is messing with the FAR files or that you're continuing to mess with it even though you already know that it'll cause issues. If you insist on reinstalling FAR, actually reinstall it by uninstalling then installing again, don't just overwrite.

Now, your rocket coming apart isn't FAR, because I can't reproduce it with an identical design. Full thrust, staying on prograde, hits Mach 0.95 at 3 km or so and doesn't want to accelerate past there, but it certainly doesn't come apart. So if it requires FAR to cause the issue, then something else is interfering. Given the extreme issues you're having, perhaps you'd be well-served by posting your output_log.txt and full reproduction steps.

I deleted ALL the files. As in, I removed the entire mod. I'm using CKAN and the way I uninstalled it was the usual way of unchecking the mod and going to the Changeset tab in CKAN and clicking Apply. It left behind the "FerramAerospaceResearch" folder with three custom config files, so I deleted those manually. After doing this, I launched KSP just to make sure it knew that FAR was 100% gone (although that was not likely necessary I am just being thorough). Then I reinstalled FAR and immediately it had the menu problems. What's frustrating is that there seems to be an intermittent error. The worst kind in any IT situation because it makes troubleshooting impossible. So my latest attempt actually did work and I disabled aero-structural failures. The rocket still came apart, so I have no idea what's going on there.

Regarding the rocket coming apart (quite) early in the launch, I can't comment on what else might be causing it because I don't know the internal workings of your mod or other people's mods. What I do know is that the mods I'm using are listed in my above post. I'm not using anything at all other than those, and the video I posted is precisely how it goes every time. FAR status window even reported "nominal" through the whole thing right up until it came apart. I also know that removing FAR fixes the problem, which is rather strange if FAR is not the problem. If there is a compatibility issue with other mods, it may be worth hunting it down.

In my latest attempt, the rocket actually did survive past booster separation, but then fell apart at about 7200m in the usual way. I really wish I knew what was causing that.

Edited by Recon777

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I've had several designs now that exhibit the same behavior: despite showing no red in the stability analysis screens, they suffer a catastrophic loss of yaw control at about 10,000m/Mach 3. Most of them were small tailed deltas (i.e. small deltas with a tail, not specifically deltas with small tails).

This isn't a criticism of the aero model; I'm comfortable with assuming that the planes are behaving as they should. My question is: is there something in the FAR analysis screens that would warn me of this behavior ahead of time? Possibly in the lateral sim (which I don't know how to use)?

The latest example:

W5yl405.png

Flies perfectly until about 10,000m/Mach 3, then turns sideways and explodes from aerodynamic failure.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm using CKAN

Don't use CKAN. It has a history of breaking FAR.

Edited by Wanderfound

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Don't use CKAN. It has a history of breaking FAR.

What?! I have 56 mods installed. If CKAN is messing things up, what's the alternative? I may be really new to the KSP modding scene, but from what I can tell, CKAN is the universally accepted mod managing tool. I only wish Minecraft had something that was able to link directly to official mod locations, detect, and install updates. Believe me, manually managing 50-200 mods is a royal pain. Especially when mods are constantly updating. What do you use?

@ferram4: Oh, also looking at my mod list, I can think of a few others which may be interacting badly with FAR. Is your mod potentially conflicting with any of the following?

Deadly Reentry Continued

Modular Flight Integrator

Stock Bug Fix Modules

Kerbal Joint Reinforcement

All of these seem like mods which could affect rocket integrity in some way.

Edited by Recon777

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What?! I have 56 mods installed. If CKAN is messing things up, what's the alternative?

Installing them manually:

Part.cfg changes powered by sarbian & ialdabaoth's ModuleManager plugin.

Interface with stock heating system and other mods interacting with the physics system powered by sarbian, Starwaster and myself's ModularFlightIntegrator

Toolbar powered by blizzy78's Toolbar plugin.

Installation:

Copy the GameData and Ships folders into the KSP root directory and merge them with the existing GameData and Ships folders.

Make sure that you copy over everything in the GameData folder. Serious issues will occur unless this is done.

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but from what I can tell, CKAN is the universally accepted mod managing tool.

You are wrong there. Yes, CKAN is the most accepted mod managing tool. But not every mod author actually manages the CKAN entry for his/her mod. This leads to CKAN not installing the mod how it's supposed to be installed and messing things up. Which doesn't exactly increase it's popularity with people like Ferram who understandably would prefer other people to not mess up their work and cause unnessecary error reports.

Yes, manually managing 50-200 mods is a PITA, but it is the most reliable method of modding KSP, since there actually is no universally accepted mod manager. Also, most of the time, you just need to copy the mod directory to KSP/GameData and maybe delete the old one if you're updating, which is not that hard.

I personally have made my GameData a git repository, with a lot of branches and a bit of scripting. I don't recommend this unless you have experience with git and shell scripting, but if you do, it's pretty nice for mod management.

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What?! I have 56 mods installed. If CKAN is messing things up, what's the alternative? I may be really new to the KSP modding scene, but from what I can tell, CKAN is the universally accepted mod managing tool. I only wish Minecraft had something that was able to link directly to official mod locations, detect, and install updates. Believe me, manually managing 50-200 mods is a royal pain. Especially when mods are constantly updating. What do you use?

The same as most KSP players: none. Download the FAR zip, unzip it, install the contents [1] into your Gamedata folder. It's done in seconds. CKAN is more trouble than it's worth.

[1] Mod makers differ in how they package their stuff; most put the relevant bit into a Gamedata folder in the download, in which case you can either merge it with your Gamedata folder or copy the contents of their Gamedata folder into yours. Read the OP of the mod release thread if in doubt about how to install.

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What?! I have 56 mods installed. If CKAN is messing things up, what's the alternative? I may be really new to the KSP modding scene, but from what I can tell, CKAN is the universally accepted mod managing tool. I only wish Minecraft had something that was able to link directly to official mod locations, detect, and install updates. Believe me, manually managing 50-200 mods is a royal pain. Especially when mods are constantly updating. What do you use?

@ferram4: Oh, also looking at my mod list, I can think of a few others which may be interacting badly with FAR. Is your mod potentially conflicting with any of the following?

Deadly Reentry Continued

Modular Flight Integrator

Stock Bug Fix Modules

Kerbal Joint Reinforcement

All of these seem like mods which could affect rocket integrity in some way.

I can't speak for the others, but Kerbal joint reinforcement is one of Ferram's mods, so I expect it plays nice with FAR. Modular flight integrator doesn't actually change anything itself, it just lets other mods like FAR change or override the stock KSP aerodynamics model. Deadly re-entry could be blowing you up, the best way is to check the F3 event log and look for '<part> exploded due to overheating'. FAR's aerodynamic failures are also logged with something along the lines of '<part> failed due to aerodynamic stresses'. I think I read something about stock bug fixes doing weird stuff with other mods, so maybe uninstall those.

As for managing your mods, try KSP mod admin. You have to download the mods manually and Its a less sophisticated program than CKAN, but its method of installing the mods is identical to the manual install method- In other words it pastes the mod files to the appropriate location in the game directory. It's smart enough to work out that files in a folder named 'gamedata' should probably go in ksp's 'gamedata' folder, and if it can't work it out then it will highlight the mod and ask you what to do.

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In my latest attempt, the rocket actually did survive past booster separation, but then fell apart at about 7200m in the usual way. I really wish I knew what was causing that.

Perhaps if you provided Kerbal Space Program/KSP_Data/output_log.txt, someone could tell. It is always a good idea to do that when reporting bugs.

P.S. So much hate for CKAN :( Sure you should always be suspicious of it and check the forums. But overall it is a great tool to make mod installation and updating much faster than manual (if you know where it works, which is almost everywhere).

P.P.S. It is fine to use CKAN for some mods and manually install other mods.

Edited by DaMichel

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@Recon777: Well, I can't help if you don't post the log. Obviously something is breaking, but I can't reproduce it, and without the log, I've got nothing to work with. If it's CKAN screwing things up, then there's not a damn thing I can do; CKAN's install methods have always been a pain in the ass and the only consolation I've gotten out of the situation is that I ended up being right about how it would make my workload heavier. I mean, I don't know if it does it, but maybe CKAN is saving more data about your install than it should? I have no idea, the whole thing is just hell to deal with.

I'm honestly lost; you're telling me that you've got a persistent issue with a part of the menu even after clearing out absolutely everything related to all the data that it has to work with. From what you're telling me, everything should be broken in the debug menu for everyone the very second they switch to that section, but it isn't.

I'll continue looking once you've posted the log. Until then, I don't know, you've got too many mods and not provided enough info to figure out what's wrong.

@Wanderfound: Probably because the coefficients being green isn't the end-all-be-all of dynamic stability, so I'll have to get at better system in place. Until then, try the sims out to see if they show any instability.

@gilfo: You don't need to change anything in there to make it work properly, and the next release will have the latter two tabs removed completely to avoid further issues. The rest is pretty self-explanatory... higher drag means more drag, stricter design requirements means stricter design requirements for min drag, voxelization count is number of voxels per vessel for developing the model. I really don't know how to explain it further.

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