The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.11.x - 1.12.x

[FloppyRocket]

6 hours ago, paul_c said:

Yay I made it! The guessed-at burn produced a Mun Pe of 18km, so it was easy to get the orbit. And with enough fuel, go for a landing:

I nailed the landing, even though there's no landing gear and a slope:

However it ran out of battery transmitting the science, SAS turned off and it fell over! I will know next time to let the battery charge to full for each transmission. And I need to do a few adaptions to get it home (like a parachute....)

Usually I throw on three of the tiny solar panels for the orbital missions. I don't know if you are under the parts limit, but they are very light. 

On 1/26/2021 at 5:59 PM, JAFO said:

Congratulations, @FloppyRocket!

It is my great pleasure to welcome you to the Clan, and bestow upon you the badge for completing the Caveman Challenge on Talc level.

Unga-bunga!

Your name is being carved on the cave wall right now, and your badge will be in your inbox shortly.

Thanks. It was quite a lot of fun!

Edited January 28, 2021 by FloppyRocket

[FloppyRocket]

On 1/26/2021 at 5:25 PM, Popestar said:

Good stuff, @FloppyRocket!  Are you going to try for a harder difficulty?

It's possible.

[paul_c]

7 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

Usually I throw on three of the tiny solar panels for the orbital missions. I don't know if you are under the parts limit, but they are very light. 

It has enough battery to transmit one piece of science at a time; and enough solar (3x panels) to recharge okay, its just I didn't wait!

Anyway, a redesign and a further stage separation for re-entry was tried. The heatshield and a few other bits weighs it down too much, so it never had enough performance to reach the surface of the Mun & return, but I did gather near and far Mun space science:

So, another design iteration was done and it looks like enough performance. So let's try again:

Go for a landing:

Nailed it!

Not enough fuel left to get back to Kerbin, but I was able to transmit its data:

This one uses the science storage module, hopefully it will survive reentry without a 300kg heatshield. A few more tweaks to follow...

[Popestar]

@paul_c

How are you flying that thing without a reaction wheel?  I'd like to know because that would save me some weight that could be used for a potential landing and return.

[paul_c]

5 minutes ago, Popestar said:

@paul_c

How are you flying that thing without a reaction wheel?  I'd like to know because that would save me some weight that could be used for a potential landing and return.

Very carefully! There is a small reaction wheel underneath the OCTO controller but control is still very marginal. It definitely feels like balancing a broom on your fingertip when doing stage 2 ascent - I don't make harsh control inputs in that phase of flight. Once its clear of the atmosphere and much lighter, control authority returns and its not too bad.

[Popestar]

14 minutes ago, paul_c said:

Very carefully! There is a small reaction wheel underneath the OCTO controller but control is still very marginal. It definitely feels like balancing a broom on your fingertip when doing stage 2 ascent - I don't make harsh control inputs in that phase of flight. Once its clear of the atmosphere and much lighter, control authority returns and its not too bad.

Yeah, once I'm in space control is easy.  But I've found that, without even the smallest of reaction wheels, my probes and manned capsules like to just decide a random direction to go...and then off they go!

[paul_c]

In theory, if you set the angle right at the start, you can turn SAS off and not touch any controls and the thing should balance all the way up in its gravity turn. (In practice I've never done it but I've seen others). This also means, the closer you are to ideal gravity turn trajectory, the less the control forces needed to keep precisely on it. Its possible, and I have done it a few times.

I think you might have jinxed it though! I flew my version 6 okay. Version 7 was okay too - but still not enough delta V. I did a bunch of tweaks for version 8 and its even worse! It did a loop-the-loop through ascent but I shut the engine off and waited, and amazingly recovered (probably wasted a bit of fuel/energy in doing so though). Its now in LKO with 2747m/s of delta V left.....hoping it makes it to the Mun and back.

Hmmmm, I have a Mun collision! I think I'll try a direct-to-land approach, rather than waste fuel burning to try avoid, then establishing orbit, etc etc. I have comms, daylight, fuel, why not?

[SpaceShane11]

How do I show proof that I did it. Cause I'm planning on doing this as my first challenge.

[paul_c]

Another try, this time with a smoother ascent and ~3200m/s left. Blind lunging at the Mun achieved 50km Pe:

Science gathered (and temp/pressure transmitted), on the way home:

The burn to Kerbin was good, just needed a tweak, then the remaining 200m/s used to slow the re-entry but not much! The OCTO has done its job, and is now performing its short but spectacular second career as an ablative heatshield:

You know when you fire up a hardware monitor and see your SSD is 67degC in your computer? Should I be worried when its reading 2000K?

It made it through the fire! Not long now:

An Albanian farmer has found this, while herding his cows:

Safely recovered, all for 42.5 science! (How many biomes are on the Mun?)

[Blaarkies]

I started trying out the Topaz level, it is just normal hard difficulty with the buildings limitation, how hard could that be i thought? I forgot how hard manual flying is, I got so used to SAS markers for just about everything.

The first few launches were a piece of cake, just grab all the science on the way. But once i started aiming for orbit, it became much harder holding a steady flight. Driving around KSC to get extra science was the same as always (This design used a crew Habitat for that sweet storage space, but Kerbals struggle building EVA on Kerbin with all that gravity, so that was useless)

So once I was done with LKO science, I tried a lightweight launch of the same vehicle without the materials bay. Got to orbit with about 900m/s dv, and had a flyby Mun contract waiting. I did it, eyeballing for an apoapsis of 45 degrees ahead of Mun. I barely grazed its SOI, but it was enough. After that, I realized we need more dv, so I came up with this:
2 docking ports for extra fuel pods to be attached. This means 3 launches just to get a Mun mission ready (the probe core rocket has the fuel pod as payload)


Rendezvous/Docking without the fancy building really takes you back, feels like learning it all over again.
- Matching AP/PE is still easy at least
- Matching inclination takes some eyeballing with weird camera angles
- Estimating the time to next intercept is tricky, as i usually liked to fix that on the final orbit before intercepting...but without real time predictions, its a lesson in pixel comparisons (how far apart were the craft icons in the previous orbit vs now ?)
- The worst was temporary blackouts for probe comms. (In the pics you can see I dropped the leftover Fuel-haulers into higher orbits to help with relay)

To go even bigger than just adding fuel pods, i tried adding extra 18t booster stages under a launch clamp hanging rocket...it did not work at all, the steerable aircraft wheels don't have brakes, its hard to move backwards, but it still seems like it has potential. Maybe adding the 2.5m fuel tanks for this would be easier 

I managed a single Mun landing this way, and with a second craft a bunch of Minmus hoppings which fulfilled the last science tech.

So I wish I could make this my entry to the challenge, but it has some caveats:
- Doesn't have pics for most flights
- I didn't take all these screenshots upfront (I went back after i was done in order to show some of the crafts I mentioned).
- I had both DLCs installed
  - I completely ignored BG science. It would take too much away from the challenge stealing EVA science
  - I tried to use BG pistons for lawn-construction, but that failed horribly (the rocket was crooked! it didn't even reach 2km altitude )

I hope this imgur embed thing works...
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/VAULjcb"  ><a href="//imgur.com/a/VAULjcb">caveman-topaz</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
imgur album

Im thinking of trying a level slightly harder than this, as this was like 8 hours of gameplay? I feared it would be such a grind 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Blaarkies

[Popestar]

3 hours ago, SpaceShane11 said:

How do I show proof that I did it. Cause I'm planning on doing this as my first challenge.

At a minimum you need screen shots of:

1. Your difficulty settings
2. The KSC to show no buildings were harmed in the making of your career
3. Your tech tree to show that you completed Tier 5.

[paul_c]

Would this work/be allowed:

1. Send a "Mun orbiter-returner" equipped with a docking port and a science storage box, to orbit the Mun

2. Send a number of "Mun lander-reorbit" vessels to go to the surface (different biomes), retrieve the science, then take off, orbit, rendezvous and dock with (1). They can also transfer what fuel they have left, to (1)

3. Vessel 1 returns to Kerbin and the science (box) is retrieved

 

 

[Popestar]

The problem with that is you cannot transfer fuel/resources without upgrading one of the buildings (I'm not sure which one).

[paul_c]

Aaaah so no fuel transfer....but the science can be, once docked?

 

[Popestar]

Yes it can.

The no fuel transfer thing isn't all that bad if you don't care about not replacing parts.  You can set a satellite up in orbit with a bunch of docking ports on it, then send up a bunch of single stage fuel tanks and engines to dock with it, and then dock another vessel you have up there to the tank/engine, undock from the satellite, and away you go.  It's one of the ways you can get from Kerbin to Minmus landing (and beyond) and home again to maximize science points.  Or you can build on the lawn (which I have not yet tried, and I am not sure I'm going to even go that route).

[FloppyRocket]

On 1/26/2021 at 5:59 PM, JAFO said:

Congratulations, @FloppyRocket!

It is my great pleasure to welcome you to the Clan, and bestow upon you the badge for completing the Caveman Challenge on Talc level.

Unga-bunga!

Your name is being carved on the cave wall right now, and your badge will be in your inbox shortly.

I got the badge. it's very cool.

How do I put it in my signature? Do I have to resize the image, upload it to a site somewhere, and add it as a link? I found how to edit my signature, but can't insert an image directly.

[FloppyRocket]

8 hours ago, paul_c said:

Aaaah so no fuel transfer....but the science can be, once docked?

 

You can't transfer fuel, but it will cross-feed across a docking port. I found that out by accident.

So you could put a probe core on a fuel tank, attach a docking port to the tank, and launch it into orbit. Then you can launch a command pod with docking port, and rendezvous with the tank, and now you have extra fuel.

You'll have to be able to dock without using the SAS aids - but you will have the Target markers on the Nav ball.

6 hours ago, Popestar said:

 Or you can build on the lawn (which I have not yet tried, and I am not sure I'm going to even go that route).

What is this "build on the lawn" of which you speak?

I'm going to start on the Apatite challenge, since last time I didn't use any of the stuff that isn't included in Talc.  Maybe I'll  explore some new methods.

[Blaarkies]

59 minutes ago, FloppyRocket said:

What is this "build on the lawn" of which you speak?

I guess its building things on the launch pad (outside of the VAB). My attempt at this was to first get a +-18t booster piece with a docking port at the top, onto the launch pad (by clicking launch in the VAB), and drive that away to the crawlerway. With the launch pad now "clear", i could "launch" the upper part of the rocket hanging from launch-stabilizers. It would just wait there, until I drive the previous booster part underneath and dock it...to have a nearly 36t rocket ready on the pad 

But from the pictures you can see I messed up, but the idea is still promising.

[Blaarkies]

 

Quote

 ...such as the ability to use multiple kerbals to assist engineers moving heavier parts in EVA Construction Mode.

 This might change everything about constructing boosters outside the VAB

[JAFO]

Wow.. I spend the day working on building my sailing dinghy, instead of being online, and come back to find you guys have almost filled a new page! Cool.

So.. to address the various posts:

 

23 hours ago, paul_c said:

The heatshield and a few other bits weighs it down too much, so it never had enough performance to reach the surface of the Mun & return

A couple of useful tips for saving weight:

Have you noticed that returning from near-Kerbin missions doesn't use up much heat-shield ablator as a rule? In the VAB, you can remove unwanted ablator just like you can fuel. Just right click on the heat-shield and set the slider to what you think is necessary. Dropping this to just 20% (usually safe to do) will save you a whopping 180kg!

With KSP 1.11, you can now remove a Kerbal's jetpack and parachute if you don't need them. Since most Caveman missions don't make use of EVA anyway, getting rid of both while in the VAB will save you another 49kg! (Yes, I know the VAB says the jetpack weighs 20kg, but when your Kerbal is wearing it, it actually weighs 45kg.)

 

20 hours ago, SpaceShane11 said:

How do I show proof that I did it. Cause I'm planning on doing this as my first challenge.

Welcome to the challenge, @SpaceShane11!

At a minimum you need screen shots of:

1. Your difficulty settings. (Including advanced/custom settings if needed.)
2. Your Science Archives, showing where the bulk of your science came from.
3. The KSC to show no buildings were upgraded.
4. Your tech tree to show that you completed Tier 5.

However, we strongly encourage you to also post interesting screenshots in occasional updates to this thread. It's always fun (and interesting!) to see the different approaches people take to the challenge.

(I've updated the challenge rules on the OP to clarify matters in this regard.)

 

17 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

I started trying out the Topaz level, it is just normal hard difficulty with the buildings limitation, how hard could that be i thought?

Welcome to the challenge, @Blaarkies! I'll get back to you on your Topaz entry shortly.

 

14 hours ago, Popestar said:

The problem with that is you cannot transfer fuel/resources without upgrading one of the buildings (I'm not sure which one).

That would be the R & D building. Not that it really matters, since we can't do it!

 

5 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

I got the badge. it's very cool.

How do I put it in my signature?

I've replied to your PM about this.

 

5 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

I'm going to start on the Apatite challenge

Excellent news!

 

5 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

What is this "build on the lawn" of which you speak?

4 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

I guess its building things on the launch pad (outside of the VAB).

Not quite.. if you try to build directly on the launch pad, once you go over 18 tons, the pad will actually explode. You need to build off the pad.. hence the term 'lawn'. Turns out grass is tougher than concrete. Who'd have thunkit?

 

3 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

Quote

 ...such as the ability to use multiple kerbals to assist engineers moving heavier parts in EVA Construction Mode.

 This might change everything about constructing boosters outside the VAB

VERY interesting. This will need investigating at some point. Hopefully by someone who's actually done lawn construction before.. (which counts me out!)

Edited January 29, 2021 by JAFO

[paul_c]

4 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

 

You'll have to be able to dock without using the SAS aids - but you will have the Target markers on the Nav ball.

 

There is no facility to "set target" and no target markers! However, if you match the orbits closely and do a rendezvous, nearer than (I think?) 30km it will draw a square box around other vehicles, at which you can aim. No target speed readout either. Screenshots coming soon, I just did my first docking!

[paul_c]

I decided on an eccentric orbit 1) its slow at the top! 2) it minimises comms blackouts

All the orbital adjustments need to be done by eye and observing if the distance increases-decreases, etc After about an hour of tweaking and tweaking the orbit; and resetting the 'station's' orbit to an easy-to-remember 1500km x 100km, I got within 24.1km. :

Now its a case of pointing at the other vehicle and applying a little throttle to increase the closing speed. Note that, it won't "go straight" but curve around, influenced by orbital mechanics. But at smaller distances, 'flying' is significant and the 'orbital' aspects are less significant:

Eventually I reached a good approach. The principle of, "if its not moving but just getting bigger, you're on a collision course" is handy, I minimised these movements to get on target. And at some point, point backwards to reduce the closing speed etc. I also switched to the station to align it straight on

Its worth getting fairly accurate by ~250m or so, because.....the handy square with the distance disappears once closer!

The "aiming at a black dot in the sky" was very nerve-wracking! But out of the darkness eventually appears the station!

Thankfully daylight arose, and I was able to continue to get closer and closer. At some point, you'll want to point away from, then get a GOOD handle on the closing speed. Then from that point, make direction changes only perpendicular to the target, to retain your desired closing speed.

Another tweak on station alignment and a slow, controlled targeting at a very slow approach speed and its coming together (no pun intended):

Not long now!

Final alignment was done more by waving the nose than sideways (no RCS) so the mini docking ports can align. Fortunately, they are magnetic and will help you the last few metres.

Science being transferred! I will keep the lander-docker craft docked for now, to hopefully increase visibility of the orbiter-returner.

[JAFO]

17 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

So I wish I could make this my entry to the challenge, but it has some caveats:
- Doesn't have pics for most flights
- I didn't take all these screenshots upfront (I went back after i was done in order to show some of the crafts I mentioned).
- I had both DLCs installed
  - I completely ignored BG science. It would take too much away from the challenge stealing EVA science
  - I tried to use BG pistons for lawn-construction, but that failed horribly (the rocket was crooked! it didn't even reach 2km altitude )

I hope this imgur embed thing works...
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/VAULjcb"  ><a href="//imgur.com/a/VAULjcb">caveman-topaz</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
imgur album

Im thinking of trying a level slightly harder than this, as this was like 8 hours of gameplay? I feared it would be such a grind 

G'day, @Blaarkies!

Your entry has been reviewed, and I'm happy to confer upon you the Topaz badge for completing the Caveman Challenge in Hard mode. Nice work, and welcome to the Clan!

Some comments:

Having both DLCs installed is no problem. After discussion with other Cavemen, it was decided that for this latest iteration of the challenge, they would be "brought in from the cold" and considered mainstream, in anticipation of the extra creativity they could inspire. On a personal note, I'm a little disappointed to not see your Mun and Minmus craft in action, as I always find those of great interest, but from a submission-of-entry point of view, it doesn't matter.

Congratulations on completing the challenge, and I hope you decide to have another crack at it. And feel free to show as many screenshots as you like along the way.

Your name will be carved on the Cave wall shortly, and your badge will be in your inbox.

Edited January 29, 2021 by JAFO
Spelling!

[JAFO]

18 minutes ago, paul_c said:

Now its a case of pointing at the other vehicle and ...

Many thanks for the detailed write-up on Caveman docking procedures! I'm sure others here will find it helpful.

[Blaarkies]

18 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Congratulations on completing the challange, and I hope you decide to have another crack at it. And feel free to show as many screenshots as you like along the way.

 Awesome! Thanks thats really cool. I did actually start on Diamond yesterday, and making a habit of pressing steam F12 to make a screenshot pretty often.

The DLC news is great as well (I disabled them yesterday for the new run), but if they are permitted im certainly going to take another look at that piston-build-contraption I wanted to try out.